May 2021 Timetable Change

Llandudno

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TFW now showing in RTT but don't rely on it being the final edition which will be shown later in Journey Planners as it seems the it is the December Timetable brought forward. There are some Q ECS on the Borderlands Line which would be to accommodate the 230s..
Yep, looks like it as there are only 4 trains per day shown on the Blaenau branch, which is not great for the summer season and a two hourly service on the Halton Curve with an earlier than usual last train.

Perhaps they are waiting for the Welsh Assembly Road Map out of lockdown which is due to be published next Friday 12 March before, hopefully, publishing ramped up services.
 
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Bwsbro

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Yep, looks like it as there are only 4 trains per day shown on the Blaenau branch, which is not great for the summer season and a two hourly service on the Halton Curve with an earlier than usual last train.

Perhaps they are waiting for the Welsh Assembly Road Map out of lockdown which is due to be published next Friday 12 March before, hopefully, publishing ramped up services.

The amendments you speak of on the Blaenau branch and the Halton Curve are still the temporary Covid timetables, These should return to normal when things get better
 

Watershed

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Yep, looks like it as there are only 4 trains per day shown on the Blaenau branch, which is not great for the summer season and a two hourly service on the Halton Curve with an earlier than usual last train.

Perhaps they are waiting for the Welsh Assembly Road Map out of lockdown which is due to be published next Friday 12 March before, hopefully, publishing ramped up services.
The May TT is set in stone now. There will be a chance of a minor uplift in September, but any major changes will need to wait till December.

Obviously those are just the standard rules, and the government may lean on NR to be flexible if demand rebounds far more than predicted, but I'd take it as a fairly safe bet it won't.
 

Ianno87

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The May TT is set in stone now. There will be a chance of a minor uplift in September, but any major changes will need to wait till December.

Obviously those are just the standard rules, and the government may lean on NR to be flexible if demand rebounds far more than predicted, but I'd take it as a fairly safe bet it won't.

Nothing to stop TOCs bidding extra trains on an STP basis if needs be.
 

peters

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Mid-Cheshire line going back to the pre-COVID timetable minus all the peak time extras, so a reduction of one service from the December timetable and with the 07:41 Manchester to Chester reinstated instead of the 08:08 Manchester to Chester in the December timetable.

The evening Helsby-Ellesmere Port service still appears to be worked by a unit which has come off a Mid-Cheshire service, despite no additional Stockport to Chester service. Presumably that means the 15:02 Chester to Manchester (a very busy service with the schools using it) and 16:40 Manchester to Chester will be worked by a 4 car set and the 4 car set will then split at Chester.
 

craigybagel

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TFW now showing in RTT but don't rely on it being the final edition which will be shown later in Journey Planners as it seems the it is the December Timetable brought forward. There are some Q ECS on the Borderlands Line which would be to accommodate the 230s..
A few minor changes from December, like the bustitution of Mach - Shrewsbury. But no Q paths for extra passenger services like WMR have done with their extra Shrewsbury - Birmingham services which makes me wonder if it really is closer to the final plan.
 
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Watershed

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Nothing to stop TOCs bidding extra trains on an STP basis if needs be.
Yes, and that would probably be the best way (at least initially) of catering to an upsurge in demand. But it's not a very sustainable way of dealing with a timetable uplift given the amount of working hours required for each week, and the scope for problems (validation for example).
 

Ianno87

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Yes, and that would probably be the best way (at least initially) of catering to an upsurge in demand. But it's not a very sustainable way of dealing with a timetable uplift given the amount of working hours required for each week, and the scope for problems (validation for example).

Agree, it's a bit of a workaround with workload placed on planners to do it.
 

berneyarms

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Yes, and that would probably be the best way (at least initially) of catering to an upsurge in demand. But it's not a very sustainable way of dealing with a timetable uplift given the amount of working hours required for each week, and the scope for problems (validation for example).
We aren’t exactly in normal times let’s be honest. What normally happens and what might happen frankly are two different things.
 

Ianno87

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We aren’t exactly in normal times let’s be honest. What normally happens and what might happen frankly are two different things.

And rail is going to have to be responsive in all of this to best balance supply (thus cost) against demand.
 

Glenn1969

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Looking at TPE I note the Sheffield service is not running to the Airport except one early and one late. The EC Edinburgh service is reduced to every 2 hours also
 

OTRail

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Out of interest, will the London to Leeds service on the MML be operated using a 222 or 180 (if the stock has been confirmed yet)?
 

LowLevel

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Out of interest, will the London to Leeds service on the MML be operated using a 222 or 180 (if the stock has been confirmed yet)?
It will be a 222. Sheffield train managers who work to Leeds don't sign 180s.
 
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Hull to Halifax every two hours 7 minutes after a TPE service seems a little pointless. It leaves Selby with a much poorer service. Time to bring back the Selby terminators?

1657 Sheffield to Scarborough is missing from RTT

Market Rasen gets a much better service with more to come.
 

RH Liner

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Mostly seems to be good news concerning EMR regional service improvements. Does anyone have any information about when the full timetable is to be restored on Northern services between Sheffield and Worksop. Currently when travelling from the Mansfield area to anywhere in the North via Sheffield there is a 52 minute wait for a connection at Worksop. If returning in the evening it’s even worse because the train from Sheffield arrives in Worksop 3 minutes after the Nottingham train has departed meaning a 57 minute wait.
This is just me brainstorming with no real knowledge of how these things are planned, but if the hourly Nottingham-Worksop was extended alternately to Sheffield non-stop, and Retford-Doncaster it would give Mansfield and other Robin Hood Line towns a far better northern outlet. It seems to me that there is a two-hourly slot between Retford and Doncaster for a 100mph 170 in the hours when the all LNER stations service turns off the ECML at Newark for Lincoln. Presumably the same applies in the opposite direction. It would also add to Retford’s northbound options. But I’m ready to be shot down in flames by those more knowledgeable than I am.
 
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ChrisC

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This is just me brainstorming with no real knowledge of how these things are planned, but if the hourly Nottingham-Worksop was extended alternately to Sheffield non-stop, and Retford-Doncaster it would give Mansfield and other Robin Hood Line towns a far better northern outlet. It seems to me that there is a two-hourly slot between Retford and Doncaster for a 100mph 170 in the hours when the all LNER stations service turns off the ECML at Newark for Lincoln. Presumably the same applies in the opposite direction. It would also add to Retford’s northbound options. But I’m ready to be shot down in flames by those more knowledgeable than I am.
Always nice to do some brainstorming but in this case it’s just not going to happen. People have been suggesting Robin Hood Line services running through to Sheffield, Retford and even Gainsborough and Cleethorpes for years. The best we can expect is good connections at Worksop and after the Sheffield to Gainsborough service was introduced and the Sheffield to Lincoln trains speeded up we had that until timetables were cut due to Covid.

During the year before timetables were cut journey times from Mansfield to the north at last were very good, with excellent connections at Worksop, after 20 years of appalling connections with waits of up to 50 minutes. Even journeys to Sheffield from as far south as Hucknall on the Robin Hood Line were quicker and cheaper via Worksop than via Nottingham. Sadly we are currently back to the worst connections ever with waits in excess of 50 minutes at Worksop. I was hoping things would improve from the May timetable but can’t as yet see any evidence of this.
 

Kite159

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Looking at TPE I note the Sheffield service is not running to the Airport except one early and one late. The EC Edinburgh service is reduced to every 2 hours also

Isn't that more down to lack of platform space at the Airport?

(I seem to recall in a previous timetable the unit from Cleethorpes would sit at the airport when another service comes in on top and departs first?)
 

Ianno87

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Isn't that more down to lack of platform space at the Airport?

(I seem to recall in a previous timetable the unit from Cleethorpes would sit at the airport when another service comes in on top and departs first?)

Just saves a unit (for strengthening elsewhere), and not really necessary with air travel demand having evaporated.

I would not expect the service to the Airport to return, due to the performance benefits of terminating in Piccadilly shed.
 

RH Liner

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Always nice to do some brainstorming but in this case it’s just not going to happen. People have been suggesting Robin Hood Line services running through to Sheffield, Retford and even Gainsborough and Cleethorpes for years. The best we can expect is good connections at Worksop and after the Sheffield to Gainsborough service was introduced and the Sheffield to Lincoln trains speeded up we had that until timetables were cut due to Covid.

During the year before timetables were cut journey times from Mansfield to the north at last were very good, with excellent connections at Worksop, after 20 years of appalling connections with waits of up to 50 minutes. Even journeys to Sheffield from as far south as Hucknall on the Robin Hood Line were quicker and cheaper via Worksop than via Nottingham. Sadly we are currently back to the worst connections ever with waits in excess of 50 minutes at Worksop. I was hoping things would improve from the May timetable but can’t as yet see any evidence of this.
That’s true, it won’t happen. My point was why shouldn’t it? As things stand, if you’re travelling north beyond Sheffield or Retford you have to change trains twice, and if you’re weighed down with luggage and have a disabled wife that’s a struggle. I know, they can’t take individual needs of everyone into account, but it means when we are going to Dundee to see our daughter for a few days we have to go from Newark, 15 miles away, so that only one change of train is required. From Mansfield it would be three, and badly timed at that.
I know it’s never going to happen, but my question is why not, if the path is there?
When the RHL opened, of course, it was with Notts County Council support, and no way did they want Mansfield people shooting off to Sheffield or Meadowhall, they wanted them in Nottingham. I often wondered whether that was the reason for the poor connecting times at Worksop.
 
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Whilst it's still early doors and the new timetable data is "very flexible," I've put together PDF's for the May 21 timetables for most of the UK (the South East still needs some work, unfortunately.) It goes without saying, that some TOC's are yet to release their data and things are obviously going to change before the timetable comes into force, but hopefully it gives an overview of what can be expected if the planned service resumes.
www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/May21/
 

SteveyBee131

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Great to finally see a clock face and direct Nottingham service on the Grimsby to Lincoln line. The later services are also a big plus to allow people to stay for food / drinks in Lincoln / Cleethorpes which should hopefully boost both economies. The Sunday service is also improved with the first service travelling from Nottingham at around 10, rather than 3 currently, which makes day trips to Cleethorpes possible.

Unfortunately, there are still issues that the timetable hasn't solved. Connections are pretty awful throughout. As already mentioned, the service does not connect well with London trains at Lincoln. Another glaring connection issue is at Barnetby where people travelling to from Lincoln from Scunthorpe just miss the connection in both directions so have 50 minute waits. I wonder if extending the Doncaster to Scunthorpe stopper to Barnetby could rectify this. It would only leave a 5 minute turnaround at either end though if using 2 units. I doubt retiming of the East Midlands service will ever happen with the Newark flat crossing so it might just be something we have to live with.

Finally, it's a bit disappointing that calls at Stallingborough, Healing and Great Coates couldn't have been added to the Lincoln service at peak times and during the late evening. Perhaps this could be added in the future. After all, it wouldn't be a lincolnshire railway if there wasn't something to complain about. Still it really is a welcome improvement.

Agreed @Grimsby town.
Lincolnshire does pretty well from the May timetable changes. Once the full changes come in (December?) both the Lincoln-Doncaster and Lincoln-Grimsby will have their hourly services. Just a shame that no Sunday service is planned for the Lincoln-Sleaford-Peterborough line.
More agreement here it's great to see the start of some big improvements in Lincolnshire! :D

However, there are some problems locally which unfortunately are difficult or impossible to solve, when we put all the companies services together.

Those who travel between Habrough and Grimsby Town will be blessed with more services, when the hourly EMR timetable comes fully into effect, 2 fasts an hour plus a stopper every 2 hours. However they're not at all evenly spaced! This is somewhat exaggerated with the first EMR introductions being in the same hours as the Barton stopper!

Taking the up direction for example, the result is such that in most even numbered hours, Habough to Grimsby Town has 3 trains in the space of roughly 15 minutes, then nothing for another hour!

However, because 2 of these 3 are long distance services which have to be finely timed in very busy areas further afield, the chances of more evenly spaced services in the future is minimal at best!

But this niggle aside, it is great to see improvements to services in this part of the world, with more direct journeys possible and much improvement early morning and late evening.
 

Ceat0908

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Not sure if it’s not been finalised yet, but noticed that the Avanti 1440 ish departure to Edinburgh via the west mids that is running now, doesn’t appear to be showing whilst all others are. Saying that tho, the ECS working for it is in from Edinburgh to polmadie. Just strange it’s the only one not in.
 

Class 466

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Southeastern now up. Basically the same rather cut back weekday timetable as today but spread across all days now. Sunday’s particularly so with even more routes joining the 1tph bandwagon in Kent.
 
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No summer Saturday GWR trains to / from Pembroke Dock

The GWR Summer Saturday Pembroke trains appear to be running as far as Carmarthen where there are local connections forward to Pembroke, this is logically the best that can be done with the Covid issues around the usual route refreshing west of Carmarthen.
 

Jamesrob637

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Looks like Manchester to London via Crewe is back from the 29th. A good move.
 

Llandudno

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Looks like Manchester to London via Crewe is back from the 29th. A good move.
Does this mean Avanti can get away with not running Holyhead/Chester to London, maybe just offering a
‘Connecting’ service from Holyhead/Chester to Crewe?
 

jfollows

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Looks like Manchester to London via Crewe is back from the 29th. A good move.
That's March 29th. to be clear (given the subject title of this thread is "May 2021 Timetable Change"), thank you for the heads up, although as others have said I'll believe it nearer the time rather more .... the uploaded data shows xx.15 (sometimes xx.12) Manchester-London via Macclesfield, Stoke and Milton Keynes plus xx.55 via Wilmslow & Crewe.

UP https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...21-03-29/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
DOWN https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...21-03-29/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

EDIT: From March 29th, supposedly rules might be relaxed "guided by the science":
Outdoor gatherings allowed of up to six people, or two households if this is larger, not just in parks but also gardens.
Outdoor sport for children and adults will be allowed including outdoor swimming pools.
The official stay at home order will end, but people will be encouraged to stay local – the definition of local will largely be left to people’s discretion.
People will still be asked to work from home where possible, with no overseas travel allowed beyond the current small number of exceptions.
 
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Alfie1014

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Whilst I can understand the need to reduce services as demand is so low the Saturday (reduced) timetable on GA is pretty poor in respect of connecting the branches. With only an hourly Norwich service the connections into the down Walton, Harwich Tn, East Suffolk and Bury lines all now require extended connecting times of up to 30 minutes more. The Bury line connections at Ipswich (except into/out of the two hourly Peterboroughs) will be around 40 mins rather than 10. Up connections are mostly better with the exception of the previously mentioned Bury line and Felixstowe branch which is 45 mins into the up Norwich. Bizzarely the Harwich branch has the best connections on a Sunday! Peak service may well struggle when demand uplifts too with Chelmsford having a worse frequency in the peaks (4) compared to (5) as the Norwich don’t call. One train an hour rather than 3-4 pre COVID from my local station to/from London in the peaks is hardly going to be an incentive to encourage passengers to return to the rails, especially when you combine it with the extended journey times imposed by the worsened connections. Hopefully there will be the scope to swiftly add additional services in once demand begins to rise as there will need to be a happy medium between the bare minimum and former full peak service?
 

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