May 2021 Timetable Change

[bramling]

Only looked at Redhill so far but all looks pretty much the same from Southern and Thameslink

GTR showing no Baldock peak services at all, and a considerably reduced Peterborough peak service. Some strange ECS working too - one of the Peterborough peak services seems to stable at Letchworth of all places, and runs ECS from Letchworth to Hertford North, then ECS from Hertford North to Peterborough, with the same happening in the evening. Apart from that I can't see much of any significance.

Oh, and a pretty much total bloodbath of 12-car 387 operation by the looks of it. Now we know how they're able to get rid of those 365s!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GTR showing no Baldock peak services at all, and a considerably reduced Peterborough peak service. Some strange ECS working too - one of the Peterborough peak services seems to stable at Letchworth of all places, and runs ECS from Letchworth to Hertford North, then ECS from Hertford North to Peterborough, with the same happening in the evening. Apart from that I can't see much of any significance.

Route retention for the top end of the Hertford Loop and Letchworth for Peterborough drivers maybe?

 

[Ianno87]

Route retention for the top end of the Hertford Loop and Letchworth for Peterborough drivers maybe?

Not sure there is any other way of reversing from Letchworth to Peterborough without running all the way to Hertford (or Welwyn) to reverse?

Only place that's possible is Up Fast at Stevenage, which wouldn't be at all practical to path.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not sure there is any other way of reversing from Letchworth to Peterborough without running all the way to Hertford (or Welwyn) to reverse?

Only place that's possible is Up Fast at Stevenage, which wouldn't be at all practical to path.

Yes, reversing at Stevenage on the flat wouldn’t be idea!!

 

[bramling]

Not sure there is any other way of reversing from Letchworth to Peterborough without running all the way to Hertford (or Welwyn) to reverse?

Only place that's possible is Up Fast at Stevenage, which wouldn't be at all practical to path.

I think you're right that there's no easier way of doing things. Just seems strange they're doing it this way - it must be a route retention thing - in the pre Covid timetables there's tended to be one of the morning Baldocks which has then gone on to do a Peterborough trip, and vice versa. I can't think of any other reason, especially as there's an ECS from Peterborough Nene CS to Hornsey EMUD and vice versa, not shown as a run as required path, which presumably keeps the Nene stabling as 6x387 - which is what it was in May 18 (I forget what the more recent couple of Covid timetables has been).

 

[dk1]

The extra late Norwich-Nottingham presumably now balances the units, so the morning train off Norwich (0651?) that runs as a 4 car for this purpose no longer needs to? Having been on it, 4 cars was pretty generous compared to actual demand...

I think the 05:50 was a 4-car presumably for its peak working into Nottingham from Grantham.

 

[Jim]

I think the 05:50 was a 4-car presumably for its peak working into Nottingham from Grantham.

Pre covid I always thought that was pretty wedged, if it's the one I'm thinking of which does the lamposts to pick up school kids between GRA and NOT.

 

[zwk500]

Not sure there is any other way of reversing from Letchworth to Peterborough without running all the way to Hertford (or Welwyn) to reverse?

Only place that's possible is Up Fast at Stevenage, which wouldn't be at all practical to path.

There's the trailing crossover the Stevenage starters use at Langley junction to get onto the Up Line, and a signal for the move. But it's probably easier to plan it to Hertford North to allow crew to ride pass on it or some other operational reason.

 

[OFFDN]

The Letchworth to Peterborough moves etc are mainly for route retention of Kings Cross and Hitchin drivers north of Hitch to Peterborough, as well as Letchworth CSD and Hertford North CHS.

With 2m social distancing in place, route refreshing in a cab is pretty restricted and so any drivers needing to maintain route knowledge need to drive it. Given that the vast majority of services to Peterborough are 700s, and neither Kings Cross nor Hitchin drivers sign 700s, this is the best way to keep up route knowledge to Peterborough for those depots, and doubles up as refreshing sidings at the same time.

 

[bramling]

The Letchworth to Peterborough moves etc are mainly for route retention of Kings Cross and Hitchin drivers north of Hitch to Peterborough, as well as Letchworth CSD and Hertford North CHS.

With 2m social distancing in place, route refreshing in a cab is pretty restricted and so any drivers needing to maintain route knowledge need to drive it. Given that the vast majority of services to Peterborough are 700s, and neither Kings Cross nor Hitchin drivers sign 700s, this is the best way to keep up route knowledge to Peterborough for those depots, and doubles up as refreshing sidings at the same time.

I thought as much. There's no other logical reason to send 2x387 from Letchworth to Peterborough to make up a train to London when 2x387 do an empty trip to Hornsey.

 

[dk1]

Pre covid I always thought that was pretty wedged, if it's the one I'm thinking of which does the lamposts to pick up school kids between GRA and NOT.

Me too.

 

[TheBigD]

I think the 05:50 was a 4-car presumably for its peak working into Nottingham from Grantham.

You are correct.

 

[Ianno87]

Pre covid I always thought that was pretty wedged, if it's the one I'm thinking of which does the lamposts to pick up school kids between GRA and NOT.

Me too.

You are correct.

I've definitely been on it well pre-Covid and had the carriage to myself into Nottingham. Although can't remember if it was term time or not.

 

[dk1]

The morning start up of the 4 158s at Norwich was 05:36 Lowestoft (now 07:55 Liverpool), 05:50 Liverpool (x2) & 06:51 Liverpool. One of the drivers was saying that EMRs plans include a 19:34 Nottingham-Norwich at some point to fill the two hour evening gap although I’m not sure that is overly needed. It ran in the very early days of the Express network but was withdrawn within a few years.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I've definitely been on it well pre-Covid and had the carriage to myself into Nottingham. Although can't remember if it was term time or not.

The rear carriage on that would be the quietest as it would be local door at the front only at almost all shacks.

 

[MikeWM]

GTR showing no Baldock peak services at all, and a considerably reduced Peterborough peak service.

On the Cambridge side, it appears the 0947 Ely to Kings Cross no longer starts back from Kings Lynn, as it has since (I think) the May 2018 timetable. That's been a fairly popular train by the time it gets to Ely, especially with students going to college in Cambridge, so I can't imagine cutting this back will be welcomed. (Though it is with me, because if I ever go back to the office, this will probably be my regular commuting train again, and I preferred it starting at Ely

Even more surprising, the 0845 off Ely also appears to start there rather than back at KLN! That one has to be a mistake, surely? KLN has had two 08xx departures to Cambridge/London for as long as I recall, cutting that to one would be incredibly unpopular.

 

[Ianno87]

On the Cambridge side, it appears the 0947 Ely to Kings Cross no longer starts back from Kings Lynn, as it has since (I think) the May 2018 timetable. That's been a fairly popular train by the time it gets to Ely, especially with students going to college in Cambridge, so I can't imagine cutting this back will be welcomed. (Though it is with me, because if I ever go back to the office, this will probably be my regular commuting train again, and I preferred it starting at Ely

Even more surprising, the 0845 off Ely also appears to start there rather than back at KLN! That one has to be a mistake, surely? KLN has had two 08xx departures to Cambridge/London for as long as I recall, cutting that to one would be incredibly unpopular.

Although in pure capacity terms, the 8-car scheme provides the equivalent level of total capacity from King's Lynn (albeit on a lower frequency of trains)

 

[MikeWM]

Although in pure capacity terms, the 8-car scheme provides the equivalent level of total capacity from King's Lynn (albeit on a lower frequency of trains)

Indeed, but FLUA (for example) have always pressed for a (all day!) half-hour frequency from KLN as even a higher priority than 8-car trains - though they did welcome the latter finally happening.

I'm not sure FLUA entirely reflect the users of the line as closely as they may think - personally I think the 8-car project was more important than the frequency north of Ely, but then I was trying to get on at Ely, not further north

I don't think there will be too much fuss about the 09xx cutback to 1 train from 2, but I think there will be a lot of unhappiness about the 08xx cutback.

 

[SteveyBee131]

Indeed, but FLUA (for example) have always pressed for a (all day!) half-hour frequency from KLN as even a higher priority than 8-car trains - though they did welcome the latter finally happening.

I'm not sure FLUA entirely reflect the users of the line as closely as they may think - personally I think the 8-car project was more important than the frequency north of Ely, but then I was trying to get on at Ely, not further north

I don't think there will be too much fuss about the 09xx cutback to 1 train from 2, but I think there will be a lot of unhappiness about the 08xx cutback.

Pardon my curiosity...
I know KLN is the 3 letter code for Kings Lynn, but what does FLUA refer to?

 

[MikeWM]

Pardon my curiosity...
I know KLN is the 3 letter code for Kings Lynn, but what does FLUA refer to?

My apologies - the Fen Line Users Association.

https://www.flua.org.uk/

Covering Kings Lynn to Cambridge North, though particular emphasis on north of Ely.

 

[SteveyBee131]

Ah, brilliant! Thanks for the clarification

 

[arb]

Even more surprising, the 0845 off Ely also appears to start there rather than back at KLN! That one has to be a mistake, surely? KLN has had two 08xx departures to Cambridge/London for as long as I recall, cutting that to one would be incredibly unpopular.

That's what the current timetable is like today - it's not new for this May. I think it was changed earlier this year, probably due to one or both of the latest Covid restrictions and the "King's Uncrossed" works, but I don't know for sure. I agree that it would a strange thing to change permanently.

Prior to May 2020 Ely has had an 08:25 and 08:45, both from from King's Lynn.

In the May 2020 timetable change Ely gained an extra train at 08:42, starting in Ely, which joined with the 08:45 at Cambridge. I was very much looking forward to using it for my commute before Covid arrived! http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec20/timetable.php?table=229 suggests it was still planned like that in December 2020, albeit with the odd minute or two of shuffling.

Today it just has the 08:25 from King's Lynn and an 08:45 from Ely.

 

[MikeWM]

That's what the current timetable is like today - it's not new for this May. I think it was changed earlier this year, probably due to one or both of the latest Covid restrictions and the "King's Uncrossed" works, but I don't know for sure. I agree that it would a strange thing to change permanently.

Yes - which is fair enough at the moment, but this change (according to RTT, at least) appears to be for the whole timetable.

Eg. for 10th June

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G46609/2021-06-10/detailed

'SSuX - 07/06/2021 to 10/12/2021'

(presumably 7th June is when the KGX work is due to be finished?)

Prior to May 2020 Ely has had an 08:25 and 08:45, both from from King's Lynn.

In the May 2020 timetable change Ely gained an extra train at 08:42, starting in Ely, which joined with the 08:45 at Cambridge. I was very much looking forward to using it for my commute before Covid arrived! http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec20/timetable.php?table=229 suggests it was still planned like that in December 2020, albeit with the odd minute or two of shuffling.

Same here, an hour later. There was going to be a 0941 from Ely to join with the 0948 at Cambridge. So I was going to have to get out of bed 7 minutes earlier, but for an quiet train that seemed worth it

According to RecentTrainTimes, these were all running up until Feb 19th, at which point the 'extras' were removed and the ex-Kings Lynn trains started from Ely instead.

I don't expect this to be an issue at the moment, but eg. by the autumn this doesn't look like a good move at all.

 

[paulmch]

It's great to see that the XC Turbostar network is more or less returning to normal, though with leisure travel expected to carry the weight of the recovery I was sort of hoping they'd improve the weekend offering from Cambridge. As it stands the last westbound train is at 20:00 on a Saturday, and the first one on a Sunday doesn't arrive in Birmingham until 13:45. It's probably down to a lack of rolling stock and the inefficient crew diagrams it would create, but it's hard to imagine it not being a popular addition with passengers!

 

[TheBigD]

It's great to see that the XC Turbostar network is more or less returning to normal, though with leisure travel expected to carry the weight of the recovery I was sort of hoping they'd improve the weekend offering from Cambridge. As it stands the last westbound train is at 20:00 on a Saturday, and the first one on a Sunday doesn't arrive in Birmingham until 13:45. It's probably down to a lack of rolling stock and the inefficient crew diagrams it would create, but it's hard to imagine it not being a popular addition with passengers!

The signalboxes between Peterborough and Leicester are closed Saturday night/Sunday morning*. Happy to be corrected but they use to close at 2200 Saturday, then open 1200-2200 on the Sunday.

(* they are open 24/7 when the route via Market Harborough is closed for engineering work and EMR St Pancras services are diverted via Corby.

 

[Watershed]

It's great to see that the XC Turbostar network is more or less returning to normal, though with leisure travel expected to carry the weight of the recovery I was sort of hoping they'd improve the weekend offering from Cambridge. As it stands the last westbound train is at 20:00 on a Saturday, and the first one on a Sunday doesn't arrive in Birmingham until 13:45. It's probably down to a lack of rolling stock and the inefficient crew diagrams it would create, but it's hard to imagine it not being a popular addition with passengers!

Unfortunately the timings of first/last trains on a relatively long route such as this are always going to be constrained by engineering access times - particularly on Saturday nights and Sunday mornings.

In this particular case there are also mechanical signal box opening hours to consider - if an operator wants them to open earlier than standard, they need to pay the full cost of doing so (which may be an extra shift on each box...)

20:00 is the last standard hour path departure that can make it all the way through to Birmingham before the route closes. A 21:00 would only make it as far as Leicester, so it would be a question of whether the patronage would justify the cost (when you can't get as far as most people want to go).

I think you have a fair point about Sunday mornings though - there's no reason why the first train should be as late as 11:22 off Birmingham. You could easily run one an hour earlier. However, 11:00 is probably the earliest you could run towards Birmingham due to the more restrictive opening hours between Ely and Peterborough.

 

[TheBigD]

Unfortunately the timings of first/last trains on a relatively long route such as this are always going to be constrained by engineering access times - particularly on Saturday nights and Sunday mornings.

In this particular case there are also mechanical signal box opening hours to consider - if an operator wants them to open earlier than standard, they need to pay the full cost of doing so (which may be an extra shift on each box...)

20:00 is the last standard hour path departure that can make it all the way through to Birmingham before the route closes. A 21:00 would only make it as far as Leicester, so it would be a question of whether the patronage would justify the cost (when you can't get as far as most people want to go).

I think you have a fair point about Sunday mornings though - there's no reason why the first train should be as late as 11:22 off Birmingham. You could easily run one an hour earlier. However, 11:00 is probably the earliest you could run towards Birmingham due to the more restrictive opening hours between Ely and Peterborough.

Couple of points...

A 2100 departure from Cambridge could only go as far as Peterborough given the current opening times of the signal boxes between there and Leicester.

Ely to Peterborough is open 24/7 and the Saturday night possession are usually given up before 8am Sunday morning.

 

[MikeWM]

I think you have a fair point about Sunday mornings though - there's no reason why the first train should be as late as 11:22 off Birmingham. You could easily run one an hour earlier. However, 11:00 is probably the earliest you could run towards Birmingham due to the more restrictive opening hours between Ely and Peterborough.

Getting out of Ely on a Sunday morning is irritatingly difficult in pretty much every direction, unfortunately. The first train to London isn't until 0857, and the first to Peterborough isn't until 1052 (except for a few months in the summer when there is a welcome 0852).

The 0857 is (well, was) usually rammed, proving the need for an earlier departure. The 0852 is also rather popular in the months that it runs.

 

[paulmch]

The signalboxes between Peterborough and Leicester are closed Saturday night/Sunday morning*. Happy to be corrected but they use to close at 2200 Saturday, then open 1200-2200 on the Sunday.

(* they are open 24/7 when the route via Market Harborough is closed for engineering work and EMR St Pancras services are diverted via Corby.

Must admit I had no idea the boxes after Peterborough closed at all - as an important freight route between eastern ports and the West Mids I assumed it saw action all day every day!

I've had the misfortune of experiencing the 20:01 from Cambridge on a Saturday many times, and even getting a 21:01 as far as just Peterborough would be a welcome addition. Cambridge is a popular "day out on the lash" destination for people in Ely/March and surrounding villages, and that's before you count last connections of the day at Peterborough for those coming from Stansted.

 

[Class 170101]

Ely to Peterborough is open 24/7 and the Saturday night possession are usually given up before 8am Sunday morning.

Thats only because of Whitemoor. NR can quite legitimately cary on until 10:30 (approximately) if they want to (except in the summer)