May 2021 Timetable Change

[43055]

I don’t understand why the London-Lincoln Service is needed at all. Both Lincoln and Newark are well served, and much more quickly, to Kings Cross by LNER. Two villages (Collingham, Lowdham) are therefore the only beneficiaries from a through London service. Is there not a case for diverting this service up to the much larger town of Mansfield instead?

Its not London to Lincoln market but St Pancras to Nottingham and Leicester to Lincoln markets though, served by one train, in the same way Liverpool Street to Peterborough didn't serve the London to Peterborough market but London to Bury St Edmunds and Colchester to Peterborough markets.

Also in the evening it takes the place of a local service between Nottingham and Lincoln and a return working to Nottingham. In the morning it is the first through train from Lincoln to Leicester.

Has it been mentioned which way the York extensions will go after Sheffield, as there are three possibilities (see below)?

1) Per as the Southampton/Reading - Newcastle XC via Doncaster
2) Via Barnsley Interchange, Wakefield Kirkgate, and Castleford
3) Via the Dearne Valley and Pontefract Baghill

No idea. They currently they go via Doncaster and I can't see them going any other way.

 

[adrock1976]

Also in the evening it takes the place of a local service between Nottingham and Lincoln and a return working to Nottingham. In the morning it is the first through train from Lincoln to Leicester.

No idea. They currently they go via Doncaster and I can't see them going any other way.

Thanks.

 

[g22]

The October 2020 Modern Railways mentioned that the plan was to call at Meadowhall and Pontefract Baghill between Sheffield and York. I have no idea whether that is actually still intended.

 

[class26]

Its not London to Lincoln market but St Pancras to Nottingham and Leicester to Lincoln markets though, served by one train, in the same way Liverpool Street to Peterborough didn't serve the London to Peterborough market but London to Bury St Edmunds and Colchester to Peterborough markets.

The service from Lincoln first started to provide extra capacity from Lincoln to Nottingham in the morning as the 2 car 156 / 158 couldn`t cope. It is (was) very well used between Lincoln and Nottingham

 

[peters]

I wouldn't expect anything concrete from some TOCs until March.

To be honest we don't even know what percentage of the December timetable will be operating in March for certain yet!

 

[berneyarms]

To be honest we don't even know what percentage of the December timetable will be operating in March for certain yet!

Exactly - I think we need to be careful before putting the cart before the horse.

 

[73128]

A smaller thing worthy of note is that the EMP call is transferred to the slower Nottingham service (the faster one now gains a call at Kettering instead), which appears to provide a more evenly spaced service south from there (pre-covid both trains each off peak hour were quite close to each other).

 

[43055]

A smaller thing worthy of note is that the EMP call is transferred to the slower Nottingham service (the faster one now gains a call at Kettering instead), which appears to provide a more evenly spaced service south from there (pre-covid both trains each off peak hour were quite close to each other).

A welcome change as it will mean a a lot more even service in both directions instead of the 3 or 10 min gap as they are now depending on the direction. By the way the three letter code for East Midlands Parkway is EMD.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks.

[EMR York Sunday service]
The track access paperwork definitely states via Doncaster.

 

[g22]

[EMR York Sunday service]
The track access paperwork definitely states via Doncaster.

Yes it does state Doncaster, I was simply mentioning what had been reported in Modern Railways last Autumn. Does the track access documentation mention 2 services each way on a Sunday as per the May 21 consultation results document? Doesn't seem to. Of course it is possible they might not run to York at all I suppose.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it does state Doncaster, I was simply mentioning what had been reported in Modern Railways last Autumn. Does the track access documentation mention 2 services each way on a Sunday as per the May 21 consultation results document? Doesn't seem to. Of course it is possible they might not run to York at all I suppose.

Yes it does have 2 services, but you need to view the draft ”supplemental agreement” rather than the “form P” (Application form).

 

[g22]

Yes it does have 2 services, but you need to view the draft ”supplemental agreement” rather than the “form P” (Application form).

That is exactly what I am looking at. I am not looking at "form P".

There is 1 service each way on Saturday and 1 service each way on Sunday in the "supplemental agreement".

Whereas under Sunday Services heading in the Consultation results document it states "Operating two trains per day each way as extensions of our Sheffield service to York".

 

[swt_passenger]

That is exactly what I am looking at. I am not looking at "form P".

Sorry I’m confused, it’s 2 York services on Saturday, but only one on Sunday.

page 29 right at the end of this:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Completed%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/2019/2019-12-02%20East%20Midlands%20Railway%20-%2017th%20Supplemental%20-%20Section%2022-%20closes%202%20January%202020/17th%20Supplemental%20(Dec20TT)%20Draftv3.pdf

 

[g22]

Sorry I’m confused, it’s 2 York services on Saturday, but only one on Sunday.

page 29 right at the end of this:

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Completed%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/2019/2019-12-02%20East%20Midlands%20Railway%20-%2017th%20Supplemental%20-%20Section%2022-%20closes%202%20January%202020/17th%20Supplemental%20(Dec20TT)%20Draftv3.pdf

I am looking at 1st Supplemental agreement MAY21TT. Different document. I presumed that was the latest document. I may be wrong.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sale-of-access-rights/Consultations/Completed%20Track%20Access%20Consultations/2020/11.09.2020%20-%20Abellio%20East%20Midlands%201st%20SA%20-%20Section%2022%20-%20Closes%2011.10.2020/EMR%201st%20Supplemental%20(May21TT)%20Final.pdf

 

[swt_passenger]

I am looking at 1st Supplemental agreement MAY21TT

Ok I’ll have another look. Sorry if I’ve confused the situation.

 

[g22]

Ok I’ll have another look. Sorry if I’ve confused the situation.

No it doesn't matter. It is confusing.

The first link seems to be for the original DEC20 timetable where it does state 2 services each way, then the link I put on MAY21 it goes back to 1 service each way (could that be a mistake?). Yet they have just released information saying it is 2 each way. Both the track access documents say via Doncaster but they have been reported in Modern Railways as saying via Pontefract Baghill. So it is very confusing.

 

[swt_passenger]

No it doesn't matter. It is confusing.

No problem, I didn’t help by completely missing the latest forms - there’s so many of them and the website isn’t exactly top quality...

 

[Tim33160]

Northern Trains services from 17 May 2021

Dear Stakeholder,

In May, along with other operators, we will be changing our timetables as part of an ongoing process to deliver the best possible service for customers. Please see an overview of these changes below with service amendments compared to December 2020 highlighted in blue. As you will see these are modest changes with a focus on protecting reliability and punctuality across the network.

The past year has been challenging for everyone across the north of England, and we will continue to feel the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic for some considerable time. In developing our May timetable, we have taken into account these ongoing challenges, reflecting our changing resource picture, the demand for services and the needs of the communities we serve. Based on our latest passenger and market insight we have focused our resource on introducing or maintaining seasonal uplifts to support the leisure markets anticipated to be the earliest to resume.

Over the last 12 months, we have had to plan and implement several new timetables. Due to the compressed timelines between them we haven’t been able to fully consult with stakeholders as we would normally. We have, however, worked to keep you updated through ongoing dialogue. We’ll continue to engage with stakeholders to understand what communities are likely to need from future timetable developments, recognising that we’re all adjusting to the impacts of the recent months.

We fully understand the vital role we play in providing mobility for the communities that are at the heart of everything we do and are determined to make a positive impact – through our services – for those who live in, work in and visit the north of England.

West and Central Region	May-21
Barrow - Manchester Airport	Hourly Barrow-Lancaster with 11tpd to/from Manchester Airport
Windermere - Manchester Airport	Hourly Oxenholme-Windermere with 4tpd to/from Manchester Airport
Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle	Hourly
Blackpool North - Hazel Grove	Hourly
Blackpool North - Manchester Airport	Hourly
Preston - Manchester Victoria	Two Hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road	Half hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central	Hourly daytime
Preston – Colne	Hourly
Preston - Blackpool South	Hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Airport - Crewe via Newton-le-Willows	Hourly
Southport - Alderley Edge	Hourly
Southport - Stalybridge	Hourly
Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly	Hourly with AM peak Macclesfield-Manchester and PM peak Piccadilly-Stoke
Clitheroe - Rochdale via Bolton and Blackburn	Hourly
Blackburn - Manchester Victoria	Hourly during AM and PM high peak only
Wigan - Leeds via Dewsbury	Hourly
Chester - Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Bradford	Hourly
Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Bradford	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Chester via Altrincham	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton	Hourly with limited peak additional
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Hadfield	Half hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill	Mix of hourly and half hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe via Stockport	Hourly
Liverpool - Wigan	Hourly
Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	Hourly with extension to/from Kirkby
Blackpool North - Leeds - York	Hourly
Manchester Victoria - Kirkby via Atherton	Service Withdrawn with Wigan - Kirkby added to Blackburn - Victoria - Wigan service
Preston - Ormskirk	Hourly
Liverpool - Blackpool	Hourly
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay	Service Withdrawn - Customers advised to use other services along the route
Manchester Victoria - Liverpool	AM and PM Peak services
Lancaster - Morecambe	Hourly with Minor Evening service alterations
Morecambe/Lancaster - Skipton	6 Services in each direction per day

Precise timings will be available through National Rail Enquiries, the Northern website and other Journey Planners shortly.

 

[Llandudno]

Northern Trains services from 17 May 2021

Dear Stakeholder,

In May, along with other operators, we will be changing our timetables as part of an ongoing process to deliver the best possible service for customers. Please see an overview of these changes below with service amendments compared to December 2020 highlighted in blue. As you will see these are modest changes with a focus on protecting reliability and punctuality across the network.

The past year has been challenging for everyone across the north of England, and we will continue to feel the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic for some considerable time. In developing our May timetable, we have taken into account these ongoing challenges, reflecting our changing resource picture, the demand for services and the needs of the communities we serve. Based on our latest passenger and market insight we have focused our resource on introducing or maintaining seasonal uplifts to support the leisure markets anticipated to be the earliest to resume.

Over the last 12 months, we have had to plan and implement several new timetables. Due to the compressed timelines between them we haven’t been able to fully consult with stakeholders as we would normally. We have, however, worked to keep you updated through ongoing dialogue. We’ll continue to engage with stakeholders to understand what communities are likely to need from future timetable developments, recognising that we’re all adjusting to the impacts of the recent months.

We fully understand the vital role we play in providing mobility for the communities that are at the heart of everything we do and are determined to make a positive impact – through our services – for those who live in, work in and visit the north of England.

West and Central Region	May-21
Barrow - Manchester Airport	Hourly Barrow-Lancaster with 11tpd to/from Manchester Airport
Windermere - Manchester Airport	Hourly Oxenholme-Windermere with 4tpd to/from Manchester Airport
Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle	Hourly
Blackpool North - Hazel Grove	Hourly
Blackpool North - Manchester Airport	Hourly
Preston - Manchester Victoria	Two Hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road	Half hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central	Hourly daytime
Preston – Colne	Hourly
Preston - Blackpool South	Hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Airport - Crewe via Newton-le-Willows	Hourly
Southport - Alderley Edge	Hourly
Southport - Stalybridge	Hourly
Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly	Hourly with AM peak Macclesfield-Manchester and PM peak Piccadilly-Stoke
Clitheroe - Rochdale via Bolton and Blackburn	Hourly
Blackburn - Manchester Victoria	Hourly during AM and PM high peak only
Wigan - Leeds via Dewsbury	Hourly
Chester - Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Bradford	Hourly
Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Bradford	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Chester via Altrincham	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton	Hourly with limited peak additional
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Hadfield	Half hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill	Mix of hourly and half hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe via Stockport	Hourly
Liverpool - Wigan	Hourly
Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	Hourly with extension to/from Kirkby
Blackpool North - Leeds - York	Hourly
Manchester Victoria - Kirkby via Atherton	Service Withdrawn with Wigan - Kirkby added to Blackburn - Victoria - Wigan service
Preston - Ormskirk	Hourly
Liverpool - Blackpool	Hourly
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay	Service Withdrawn - Customers advised to use other services along the route
Manchester Victoria - Liverpool	AM and PM Peak services
Lancaster - Morecambe	Hourly with Minor Evening service alterations
Morecambe/Lancaster - Skipton	6 Services in each direction per day

Precise timings will be available through National Rail Enquiries, the Northern website and other Journey Planners shortly.

No mention of Ellesmere Port - Helsby......!!

 

[Chapeltownveg]

No mention of services on the Eastern side.

 

[Greybeard33]

Northern Trains services from 17 May 2021

Dear Stakeholder,

In May, along with other operators, we will be changing our timetables as part of an ongoing process to deliver the best possible service for customers. Please see an overview of these changes below with service amendments compared to December 2020 highlighted in blue. As you will see these are modest changes with a focus on protecting reliability and punctuality across the network.

The past year has been challenging for everyone across the north of England, and we will continue to feel the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic for some considerable time. In developing our May timetable, we have taken into account these ongoing challenges, reflecting our changing resource picture, the demand for services and the needs of the communities we serve. Based on our latest passenger and market insight we have focused our resource on introducing or maintaining seasonal uplifts to support the leisure markets anticipated to be the earliest to resume.

Over the last 12 months, we have had to plan and implement several new timetables. Due to the compressed timelines between them we haven’t been able to fully consult with stakeholders as we would normally. We have, however, worked to keep you updated through ongoing dialogue. We’ll continue to engage with stakeholders to understand what communities are likely to need from future timetable developments, recognising that we’re all adjusting to the impacts of the recent months.

We fully understand the vital role we play in providing mobility for the communities that are at the heart of everything we do and are determined to make a positive impact – through our services – for those who live in, work in and visit the north of England.

West and Central Region	May-21
Barrow - Manchester Airport	Hourly Barrow-Lancaster with 11tpd to/from Manchester Airport
Windermere - Manchester Airport	Hourly Oxenholme-Windermere with 4tpd to/from Manchester Airport
Barrow-in-Furness - Carlisle	Hourly
Blackpool North - Hazel Grove	Hourly
Blackpool North - Manchester Airport	Hourly
Preston - Manchester Victoria	Two Hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road	Half hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Warrington Central	Hourly daytime
Preston – Colne	Hourly
Preston - Blackpool South	Hourly
Liverpool - Manchester Airport - Crewe via Newton-le-Willows	Hourly
Southport - Alderley Edge	Hourly
Southport - Stalybridge	Hourly
Stoke - Manchester Piccadilly	Hourly with AM peak Macclesfield-Manchester and PM peak Piccadilly-Stoke
Clitheroe - Rochdale via Bolton and Blackburn	Hourly
Blackburn - Manchester Victoria	Hourly during AM and PM high peak only
Wigan - Leeds via Dewsbury	Hourly
Chester - Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Bradford	Hourly
Manchester Victoria - Leeds via Bradford	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Chester via Altrincham	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Buxton	Hourly with limited peak additional
Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield via New Mills Central	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central	Hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Hadfield	Half hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Rose Hill	Mix of hourly and half hourly
Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe via Stockport	Hourly
Liverpool - Wigan	Hourly
Wigan - Victoria - Blackburn via Todmorden	Hourly with extension to/from Kirkby
Blackpool North - Leeds - York	Hourly
Manchester Victoria - Kirkby via Atherton	Service Withdrawn with Wigan - Kirkby added to Blackburn - Victoria - Wigan service
Preston - Ormskirk	Hourly
Liverpool - Blackpool	Hourly
Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay	Service Withdrawn - Customers advised to use other services along the route
Manchester Victoria - Liverpool	AM and PM Peak services
Lancaster - Morecambe	Hourly with Minor Evening service alterations
Morecambe/Lancaster - Skipton	6 Services in each direction per day

Precise timings will be available through National Rail Enquiries, the Northern website and other Journey Planners shortly.

Quite surprising that Liverpool - Warrington BQ is being binned. That will leave most of the stations on the western Chat Moss line with only 1tph.

Will a parliamentary service be needed round the west curve at Earlestown?

 

[Starmill]

No mention of services on the Eastern side.

Presumably a similar email has been sent to stakeholders in that area.

Quite surprising that Liverpool - Warrington BQ is being binned. That will leave most of the stations on the western Chat Moss line with only 1tph.

Indeed. This is very concerning.

Poor also that some stations between Bolton and Preston continue with a two-hourly service. A cut for the Atherton line is less worrisome and has I think been foretold by many. One assumes that post-recovery taksforce the former two will be reversed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. This is very concerning.

This service has been discussed on the Golborne thread, where it was suggested that it was hardly used east/south of Earlestown and as such might actually be more useful as another Liverpool-Wigan service (thus serving Golborne). If Golborne goes ahead I wonder if it will reappear in that form? It's not exceptionally useful in terms of the Warrington bit, as anyone wanting to go from Liverpool to Warrington will use the fast services to Central, and you can connect onto the TfW and Northern services at Earlestown (albeit with a bit of a hike) if you're going from a local station along Chat Moss.

A cut for the Atherton line is less worrisome and has I think been foretold by many. One assumes that post-recovery taksforce the former two will be reversed.

At least one of the options for Castlefield has Atherton service at 2tph, so I'd imagine that will stick.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay service, the problem is that as far as I am aware that this is the only passenger service that is timetabled to use the west curve at Earlestown.

Has Northern applied for a formal closure order?

 

[Greybeard33]

No mention of Ellesmere Port - Helsby......!!

Will a parliamentary service be needed round the west curve at Earlestown?

In the absence of information to the contrary, I guess we can assume there will still be a daily service from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port via Warrington BQ, calling at Earlestown. Thus killing two birds with one stone.

 

[Starmill]

This service has been discussed on the Golborne thread, where it was suggested that it was hardly used east/south of Earlestown and as such might actually be more useful as another Liverpool-Wigan service (thus serving Golborne). If Golborne goes ahead I wonder if it will reappear in that form? It's not exceptionally useful in terms of the Warrington bit, as anyone wanting to go from Liverpool to Warrington will use the fast services to Central, and you can connect onto the TfW and Northern services at Earlestown (albeit with a bit of a hike) if you're going from a local station along Chat Moss.

The previous idea for this service was that it would go to Manchester all day, as it currently does at peak times. That would also provide 2tph all day at Eccles and Patricroft. Of course it's rather off the table now...

I would argue that it is in fact reasonably necessary. Either Whiston and Rainhill are worth serving or they're not. If they're worth serving they need at least half-hourly to be any use. If they're not worth serving, close them. The same applies with the Lea Green / St Helens Junction split. Of course, going to Wigan via Golborne would be notably more useful than going to Warrington Bank Quay is. Indeed this was hinted at by the fact that one service terminated at Earlestown and immediately ran back to Liverpool Lime Street empty to resume another working. Not least because it would offer regular Newton-le-Willows to Wigan service.

 

[clagmonster]

No mention of services on the Eastern side.

Presumably a similar email has been sent to stakeholders in that area.

I have received the east side email. Unless someone beats me to it, I shall post the highlights in the morning.

 

[josla1]

Glad to see Liverpool - Manchester airport via Warrington central back to hourly in the change. Now brings Warrington west back to 2tph in each direction. More beneficial for me working at picc too!

 

[Watershed]

Glad to see Liverpool - Manchester airport via Warrington central back to hourly in the change. Now brings Warrington west back to 2tph in each direction. More beneficial for me working at picc too!

There are no guarantees that service won't be cut down to three-hourly (or 2tp3h) by planned cancellations. This simply the bid for May LTP, which gives them the absolute right to operate it hourly.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Its not London to Lincoln market but St Pancras to Nottingham and Leicester to Lincoln markets though, served by one train, in the same way Liverpool Street to Peterborough didn't serve the London to Peterborough market but London to Bury St Edmunds and Colchester to Peterborough markets.

Running these one or two trains a day off the main operating routes just is uneconomic with all the crews that have to be trained. What we need is standardised timetables on trunk routes with proper connecting services run all day along instead. This would improve stock and crew utilisation. The achillies heel of the disparate railway we've had over the last 25 years is that connections are poorly managed both in timetable design (not the planners faults) and the blatant obsession with PPM means connections are never held so people now have a poor impression of making journeys where a change is required. Shapps can do no wrong if he wants to leverage the Williams review to set out a vision for a wholesale rethink of the railway to now be established to make connections an integral part of providing the service.