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May 2021 Timetable Change

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LowLevel

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Running these one or two trains a day off the main operating routes just is uneconomic with all the crews that have to be trained. What we need is standardised timetables on trunk routes with proper connecting services run all day along instead. This would improve stock and crew utilisation. The achillies heel of the disparate railway we've had over the last 25 years is that connections are poorly managed both in timetable design (not the planners faults) and the blatant obsession with PPM means connections are never held so people now have a poor impression of making journeys where a change is required. Shapps can do no wrong if he wants to leverage the Williams review to set out a vision for a wholesale rethink of the railway to now be established to make connections an integral part of providing the service.

It provides a large train between Lincoln and Nottingham in the morning and the route knowledge for a simple 30 mile route isn't onerous. It also means that staff are available and trained to provide things like football specials or the Christmas Market extras. If you have pressures on your rolling stock then novel solutions like this one are great.
 
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Llandudno

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In the absence of information to the contrary, I guess we can assume there will still be a daily service from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port via Warrington BQ, calling at Earlestown. Thus killing two birds with one stone.
That sounds like a cunning plan...!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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It provides a large train between Lincoln and Nottingham in the morning and the route knowledge for a simple 30 mile route isn't onerous. It also means that staff are available and trained to provide things like football specials or the Christmas Market extras. If you have pressures on your rolling stock then novel solutions like this one are great.
Its still takes time to train the staff and you need a number in the link and then you need to ensure they cover the route all adds to the complication of diagramming and managing the service especially when you get perturbation. Im advocating that local operators should be resourced up to deliver demand where its needed and Shapps would do well to look at the German model where the local Lander decide what is necessary and then contract an operator to deliver it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Its still takes time to train the staff and you need a number in the link and then you need to ensure they cover the route all adds to the complication of diagramming and managing the service especially when you get perturbation. Im advocating that local operators should be resourced up to deliver demand where its needed and Shapps would do well to look at the German model where the local Lander decide what is necessary and then contract an operator to deliver it.

We already in effect are in that position - England, Wales, Scotland and NI are (in terms of their power) our equivalents of Bundeslaender, and TOCs already are a devolved matter.

Giving it to County Councils, if you meant that, would be gross stupidity and not at all like the German model because County Councils are nothing like Bundesland Governments - we would end up with a "bonfire of the branch lines" that dwarfed Beeching. The only place I'd concede to that would be the PTEs who do actually have some level of genuine competence there, and indeed Merseyrail already is devolved, as is London Overground.
 

The Planner

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Its still takes time to train the staff and you need a number in the link and then you need to ensure they cover the route all adds to the complication of diagramming and managing the service especially when you get perturbation. Im advocating that local operators should be resourced up to deliver demand where its needed and Shapps would do well to look at the German model where the local Lander decide what is necessary and then contract an operator to deliver it.
Fine as long as people are happy to have an increase in bus replacement during engineering as TOCs will just say "don't sign it mate, we will RRB the lot"
 

Nicholas Lewis

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We already in effect are in that position - England, Wales, Scotland and NI are (in terms of their power) our equivalents of Bundeslaender, and TOCs already are a devolved matter.

Giving it to County Councils, if you meant that, would be gross stupidity and not at all like the German model because County Councils are nothing like Bundesland Governments - we would end up with a "bonfire of the branch lines" that dwarfed Beeching. The only place I'd concede to that would be the PTEs who do actually have some level of genuine competence there, and indeed Merseyrail already is devolved, as is London Overground.
Agreed it needs to be on a regional basis and the PTE's weren't a bad operating model with MerseyRail the only legacy left outside of London. Starting point has to be infrastructure we have which NR is funded to operate at a minimum level don't leave local bodies to fund that element otherwise it becomes political.
 

Kite159

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Interesting to see that the Oxford Road - Liverpool stoppers (via Warrington) remain half hourly instead of being cut back to hourly off-peak with some peak time extras.
 

berneyarms

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Its still takes time to train the staff and you need a number in the link and then you need to ensure they cover the route all adds to the complication of diagramming and managing the service especially when you get perturbation. Im advocating that local operators should be resourced up to deliver demand where its needed and Shapps would do well to look at the German model where the local Lander decide what is necessary and then contract an operator to deliver it.
You do realise this is making use of a train that would otherwise be idle?

It's actually adding capacity and improving stock utilisation.
 

peters

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Regarding the Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay service, the problem is that as far as I am aware that this is the only passenger service that is timetabled to use the west curve at Earlestown.

Has Northern applied for a formal closure order?

I get the impression in the current circumstances train companies can just do whatever they want and any legal implications will be waived.

I don't think the Manchester United station has officially been closed but nothing's served it for quite a while.
 

peters

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In the absence of information to the contrary, I guess we can assume there will still be a daily service from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port via Warrington BQ, calling at Earlestown. Thus killing two birds with one stone.

So are you presuming the full December 2020 timetable won't be reinstated before May? There was an evening Helsby to Ellesmere Port shuttle, utilising the train made available by the 17:18 Stockport to Chester being reinstated. There's also no mention of that Mid-Cheshire peak time extra being in the May 2021 timetable in the above quote.

I guess if the peak time extras on the Mid-Cheshire are missing in the May timetable change they'll be pressure put on Northern to reinstate the morning ones before September, when the schools return for the new academic year.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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You do realise this is making use of a train that would otherwise be idle?

It's actually adding capacity and improving stock utilisation.
Your looking at it through todays lens and we have been good at squeezing out little side trips like this but at what cost to overall complexity and reliability.

My proposition is a complete rethink to way we organise services to create simple service groups that are all integrated together to ensure good connections a British Taktfahrplan.

Im not picking on this particular service group just showing it as an example of how a timetable operating over a main route can become unnecessarily complicated by operating off journeys like this.
 

berneyarms

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Using sets like this at peak times has been for donkey’s years and is perfectly normal and should be encouraged.

I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

The set fits into the “main route” timetable pattern perfectly - it’s just used to facilitate the need for a longer train before that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with such a practice.

The only thing that is complicated here is your overthinking of the situation to create issues where none really exist.

The world is rarely as straightforward as you’re making it out to be.
 
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IanXC

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We already in effect are in that position - England, Wales, Scotland and NI are (in terms of their power) our equivalents of Bundeslaender, and TOCs already are a devolved matter.

Giving it to County Councils, if you meant that, would be gross stupidity and not at all like the German model because County Councils are nothing like Bundesland Governments - we would end up with a "bonfire of the branch lines" that dwarfed Beeching. The only place I'd concede to that would be the PTEs who do actually have some level of genuine competence there, and indeed Merseyrail already is devolved, as is London Overground.

To what devolved "English" power do you refer?

As you identify County Councils are pretty irrelevant in these maters, as for PTEs since the 2008 they're effectively agencies of the few Combined Authorities we have.
 

Greybeard33

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So are you presuming the full December 2020 timetable won't be reinstated before May? There was an evening Helsby to Ellesmere Port shuttle, utilising the train made available by the 17:18 Stockport to Chester being reinstated. There's also no mention of that Mid-Cheshire peak time extra being in the May 2021 timetable in the above quote.

I guess if the peak time extras on the Mid-Cheshire are missing in the May timetable change they'll be pressure put on Northern to reinstate the morning ones before September, when the schools return for the new academic year.
My point was merely that even the current reduced Covid timetable, like the full December 2020 timetable, has one morning service from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port via Earlestown. If that is retained in the May 2021 timetable, it obviates any possible need for closure procedures for either the Helsby - Ellesmere Port line or the Earlestown west curve.

If Northern's intention were to withdraw Ellesmere Port services altogether, I think the stakeholder briefing would have mentioned that, as for Liverpool to Warrington BQ. But I do not think we can draw any conclusions as to whether or not the evening Ellesmere Port service, and the associated Stockport to Chester service, will be in the May timetable. It may have been an oversight not to mention Ellesmere Port, or just a conscious decision that details like a single peak-only service are too minor to mention in this broad brush summary.

If Northern were intending to reintroduce the Mid Cheshire morning peak extras from May I am sure they would have been mentioned. I expect the hourly timetable will be similar to the full December 2020 one.
 

peters

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If Northern were intending to reintroduce the Mid Cheshire morning peak extras from May I am sure they would have been mentioned. I expect the hourly timetable will be similar to the full December 2020 one.

I wasn't suggesting they will be in, only that if Northern don't plan to reintroduce them by September that certain groups and people will be putting pressure on Northern to reinstate them. I would guess by the autumn businesses and organisations that want to return to the old normal will be doing so and with the prediction being that most people will be vaccinated by the time the schools return for the new academic year, that September would be a good time to implement that change. With some businesses having a very busy period in the weeks leading up to Christmas I doubt they'll want to wait until the December timetable change date. I would also guess that organisations that move to part time office based and part time home based will be doing that as soon as they can, rather than waiting until it's convenient for Northern (or other operators) to reinstate full timetables.

There could also be a period when those who will continue to work from home full time have to go back to their workplace for a day or two to swap hardware, as there's certain IT maintenance that can't be carried out remotely like adding additional RAM to the laptop of someone who is experiencing slow performance or upgrading someone to a new laptop.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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New rail connections for London Luton Airport - Breaking Travel News
It says as well as the 360's being used on the Half Hourly St Pancras - Corby service. There will also be a new St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway every half hour too. It suggests it will be a separate non stop service.
I suspect its just first stop on the Corby service but with people mover opening soon as will make this a much more accessible airport from London whether there will be demand there once was who knows.
 

Bletchleyite

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New rail connections for London Luton Airport - Breaking Travel News
It says as well as the 360's being used on the Half Hourly St Pancras - Corby service. There will also be a new St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway every half hour too. It suggests it will be a separate non stop service.

So far as I'm aware it's just the Corby service. Not that that's a problem, of course.
 

g22

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Freight seems to have been loaded. Appears sadly that there have been some changes to passenger trains on the MML in the Up direction in the late evening compared with the original December 2020 consultation.
 

Class 170101

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Freight seems to have been loaded. Appears sadly that there have been some changes to passenger trains on the MML in the Up direction in the late evening compared with the original December 2020 consultation.
No surprises there, they aren't likely to change for the pandemic yet Passenger ones probably will and almost certainly are in state to be confirmed - probably until after Easter for May 2021 TT change.
 

Llandudno

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Freight seems to have been loaded. Appears sadly that there have been some changes to passenger trains on the MML in the Up direction in the late evening compared with the original December 2020 consultation.
What changes have they made to late evening UP services, there are virtually no late services in the London direction in any case, last trains from Sheffield around 2100, Nottingham 2130 and Leicester 2200

Surely they haven’t made them any worse...?
 

g22

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I just noticed 1 or 2 trains that freight is in the way of that's all. Remains to be seen whether they have been moved slightly to fit or removed etc. Also there is a curious thing in the track access document on Network Rail website where EMR applied to convert an ECS to passenger service at 22:00 Sheffield to Derby, but there was originally supposed to be a 22:00 Sheffield to London. So something weird is going on there. I suppose I should just be patient until all is confirmed.
 

clagmonster

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Northern East Side changes:
09:55, 11:55 and 13:55 Newcastle Central - Morpeth and associated returns reinstated.
Carlisle - Newcastle increased from 22 to 24 services per day out of a normal 26.
Sheffield - Doncaster stopper reduced to 1tph in the peaks, was 2tph peak
Doncaster - Scunthorpe reduced to two hourly
Bridlington - Hull shorts introduced at 1tph to complement the Scarborough - Sheffield 1tph
Hull - Halifax reduced to two hourly
Skipton - Leeds and Leeds - Doncaster peak additionals withdrawn
 

Chapeltownveg

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Any changes to the hallam and penistone line coming waiting for the Leeds to Lincoln service to back.
 

Llandudno

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I just noticed 1 or 2 trains that freight is in the way of that's all. Remains to be seen whether they have been moved slightly to fit or removed etc. Also there is a curious thing in the track access document on Network Rail website where EMR applied to convert an ECS to passenger service at 22:00 Sheffield to Derby, but there was originally supposed to be a 22:00 Sheffield to London. So something weird is going on there. I suppose I should just be patient until all is confirmed.
Yes, probably too early to speculate!

Northern East Side changes:
09:55, 11:55 and 13:55 Newcastle Central - Morpeth and associated returns reinstated.
Carlisle - Newcastle increased from 22 to 24 services per day out of a normal 26.
Sheffield - Doncaster stopper reduced to 1tph in the peaks, was 2tph peak
Doncaster - Scunthorpe reduced to two hourly
Bridlington - Hull shorts introduced at 1tph to complement the Scarborough - Sheffield 1tph
Hull - Halifax reduced to two hourly
Skipton - Leeds and Leeds - Doncaster peak additionals withdrawn
Are there any changes to Leeds - Nottingham?
 

northernchris

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Northern East Side changes:
09:55, 11:55 and 13:55 Newcastle Central - Morpeth and associated returns reinstated.
Carlisle - Newcastle increased from 22 to 24 services per day out of a normal 26.
Sheffield - Doncaster stopper reduced to 1tph in the peaks, was 2tph peak
Doncaster - Scunthorpe reduced to two hourly
Bridlington - Hull shorts introduced at 1tph to complement the Scarborough - Sheffield 1tph
Hull - Halifax reduced to two hourly
Skipton - Leeds and Leeds - Doncaster peak additionals withdrawn

Thanks for sharing. Bit disappointing, I was hoping for a minimum of the return of the December 2020 timetable.
 

swt_passenger

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New rail connections for London Luton Airport - Breaking Travel News
It says as well as the 360's being used on the Half Hourly St Pancras - Corby service. There will also be a new St Pancras - Luton Airport Parkway every half hour too. It suggests it will be a separate non stop service.
This is repeat of a misleading story that first appeared some time ago. There is definitely no dedicated airport service, as others have said. There was a flurry of these stories mid 2019, here’s an example:
Seems quite a few media outlets are running the same inaccuracies in the last day or so, theres no evidence EMR intend an airport express branding, in the way it’s been done for Heathrow and Gatwick...
 
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