May 2023 changes

[InkyScrolls]

A bit speculative (I'll start a thread later), but: if there are too many services between Shipley and Bradford, why not cut the Leeds-Bradford route instead? People can change at Shipley once - or twice - per hour, while maintaining the longer-distance routes. The way it's done, it's all or nothing once an hour.

Indeed; people coming from Bradford can even travel from Interchange, if they don't want to change trains.

 

[Bantamzen]

A bit speculative (I'll start a thread later), but: if there are too many services between Shipley and Bradford, why not cut the Leeds-Bradford route instead? People can change at Shipley once - or twice - per hour, while maintaining the longer-distance routes. The way it's done, it's all or nothing once an hour.

I don't think its a question of too many services between the two, all three routes often pick up a lot of their passengers at Shipley and beyond. People could change at Shipley, however Shipley is not an ideal connecting station, with a rat-run across the car park to get between P1/2 & P3/4/5, the footbridge between P3 & P4 having regular issues with lifts and even lighting, and the infamous subway connecting the same that doubles as a local reservoir whenever it rains. Plus this would mean transferring the Apperley Bridge & Kirkstall Forge stops to the Leeds-Skipton runs, far from ideal if these get back to pre-covid levels.

 

[The Planner]

Also a return to hourly Bournemouth to Manchester rather than 2hourly curtailments at Reading. Does mean they shall all be single sets due to interworking at Manchester. Seems mostly a return to precovid times finally. But not quite full half hourly between reading and Birmingham yet

I have a suspicion that the reinstated Reading York/Newcastle will disappear again.

 

[DanNCL]

Newcastle - Reading is returning every 2 hours. These are booked to use the West facing bays at Newcastle so will be single 4 car Voyagers. The services reinstated are the ones that pre covid terminated at Reading - the ones that went to Southampton and Guildford remain missing.
Plymouth - Edinburgh will be hourly throughout, rather than the present 2 hourly service north of Newcastle.

Also a return to hourly Bournemouth to Manchester rather than 2hourly curtailments at Reading. Does mean they shall all be single sets due to interworking at Manchester. Seems mostly a return to precovid times finally. But not quite full half hourly between reading and Birmingham yet

3 trains every 4 hours between Reading and Birmingham.

I have a suspicion that the reinstated Reading York/Newcastle will disappear again.

I don’t. It’s needed for route retention via Solihull.

 

[The Planner]

Newcastle - Reading is returning every 2 hours. These are booked to use the West facing bays at Newcastle so will be single 4 car Voyagers. The services reinstated are the ones that pre covid terminated at Reading - the ones that went to Southampton and Guildford remain missing.
Plymouth - Edinburgh will be hourly throughout, rather than the present 2 hourly service north of Newcastle.


3 trains every 4 hours between Reading and Birmingham.


I don’t. It’s needed for route retention via Solihull.

The extras that have been put back in, the existing ones will stay.

 

[OrangeJuice]

3 trains every 4 hours between Reading and Birmingham.

0645, 1145, 1445, 1543 and 1744. Some useful trains but also a large morning gap north from Reading.

The extras that have been put back in, the existing ones will stay

I'm assuming that would be the above trains from Reading I mentioned since only the two services to/from Banbury via Solihull are in the current timetable

 

[InkyScrolls]

I don't think its a question of too many services between the two, all three routes often pick up a lot of their passengers at Shipley and beyond. People could change at Shipley, however Shipley is not an ideal connecting station, with a rat-run across the car park to get between P1/2 & P3/4/5, the footbridge between P3 & P4 having regular issues with lifts and even lighting, and the infamous subway connecting the same that doubles as a local reservoir whenever it rains. Plus this would mean transferring the Apperley Bridge & Kirkstall Forge stops to the Leeds-Skipton runs, far from ideal if these get back to pre-covid levels.

I couldn't agree more. At peak times, services from Skipton into Leeds are full and standing by Shipley, and on the few which are booked to stop at Apperley for the benefit of schoolchildren it's more than little uncomfortable.

 

[Minstral25]

On the North Downs, the 2234 from Reading is restored as far as Guildford, then running empty back to Reading. The unnecessary waits at Guildford on the stoppers and restoration of Turbo timings will have to wait for another timetable.

GW said it would be done in the Dec 23 timetable as it was too late for May when the decision to withdraw the 769's was made.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed; people coming from Bradford can even travel from Interchange, if they don't want to change trains.

Or just leave things as they are, 2pth on all 5 triangle routes worked perfectly fine for many years, it even had some disruption resilience in that late runners towards Bradford FS & very occasionally Leeds could be terminated at Shipley & put onto their next diagram as they are all interworked with each other. It was very noticeable last summer that a cancellation of a late runner often led to the Bradford - Skipton / Ilkley lines without a service for at least a couple of hours. Outside of very severe disruption, this was previously unheard of.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Or just leave things as they are, 2pth on all 5 triangle routes worked perfectly fine for many years, it even had some disruption resilience in that late runners towards Bradford FS & very occasionally Leeds could be terminated at Shipley & put onto their next diagram as they are all interworked with each other. It was very noticeable last summer that a cancellation of a late runner often led to the Bradford - Skipton / Ilkley lines without a service for at least a couple of hours. Outside of very severe disruption, this was previously unheard of.

But you are overlooking the simple fact the railway isn’t bringing in the revenue it was back then on a daily basis. This coupled with no additional funding from central government (remember when Liz Truss tried to shake the magic money tree) means that level of service is unaffordable unless fares significantly increase (which will no doubt price some people off the trains) or taxes are increased to pay for it.

 

[JRT]

A bit speculative (I'll start a thread later), but: if there are too many services between Shipley and Bradford, why not cut the Leeds-Bradford route instead? People can change at Shipley once - or twice - per hour, while maintaining the longer-distance routes. The way it's done, it's all or nothing once an hour.



But you are overlooking the simple fact the railway isn’t bringing in the revenue it was back then on a daily basis. This coupled with no additional funding from central government (remember when Liz Truss tried to shake the magic money tree) means that level of service is unaffordable unless fares significantly increase (which will no doubt price some people off the trains) or taxes are increased to pay for iDaytime t.

 

[InkyScrolls]

If one were being very stingy BDQ could probably manage with a half-hourly shuttle to Guiseley and nothing more (not that I'm recommending it!).

 

[JRT]

A bit speculative (I'll start a thread later), but: if there are too many services between Shipley and Bradford, why not cut the Leeds-Bradford route instead? People can change at Shipley once - or twice - per hour, while maintaining the longer-distance routes. The way it's done, it's all or nothing once an hour.

no, the Leeds to Bradford route is well-used and is useful if there's disruption on the Pudsey route

If one were being very stingy BDQ could probably manage with a half-hourly shuttle to Guiseley and nothing more (not that I'm recommending it!).

There was such a timetable, when the signalling was altered to allow reversal at Guiseley, I was thinking along those lines myself

Leeds – Shipley – Bradford needs to be retained as half-hourly as it's quite busy and in case there's disruption on other routes

Bradford to Keighley needs a decent connection at Shipley on the opposite half-hour as on Sunday

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Now starts at Great Malvern as 1P18

Realtime Trains | Departures from Worcester Shrub Hill between 0200 and 0159 on 25/05/2023

Train information at Worcester Shrub Hill between 0200 and 0159 on 25/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

ECS from Stoke Gifford via Worcester

Realtime Trains | 3G18 0440 Stoke Gifford to Great Malvern | 25/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 3G18 0440 departure from Stoke Gifford to Great Malvern on 25/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Without going through Real Time Trains I guess the same applies in reverse.


Broadly speaking though there are still some gaps.

Yes I noticed it now starts from Great Malvern. I’m not quite sure what saving this makes but it must make sense somewhere along the line I guess.

We’ve been warned by @Bald Rick of cuts coming in May for quite some time. I guess this is the start of it.

 

[Bantamzen]

But you are overlooking the simple fact the railway isn’t bringing in the revenue it was back then on a daily basis. This coupled with no additional funding from central government (remember when Liz Truss tried to shake the magic money tree) means that level of service is unaffordable unless fares significantly increase (which will no doubt price some people off the trains) or taxes are increased to pay for it.

This is true, however basic cutting of services isn't the only way. Revenue protection along the Aire & Wharfe routes isn't the best by a long chalk ,even at Shipley when there are ticket checks (I'm not going to say how, but avoiding them is quite easy). But this is probably for another thread.

 

[Halish Railway]

With the exception of the through services to Carlisle/Lancaster, was there not a few years following the withdrawal of the 308s when 333s were the only traction? Prior to the introduction of 322s and 321s.

There were a couple of weekday Pacer diagrams on the Shipley triangle/Leeds NW lines, as well as ad-hoc DMU substitutions prior to receiving the 322s from Scotrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

Has that Thameslink service ever actually ran?

It was only ever intended to be a few trains per day each way in the peak flow direction, possibly as low as 3 northbound in the morning peak, and 3 southbound in the evening peak. IIRC they only ever ran one or two per day pre 2020, they never planned the full number, it would have eventually been one of the last additions to get up to 24 tph in the high peak hours.

When they cut it back to London Bridge as a TL service (was that only last December?) I assumed that it would revert to SN as soon as they could sort out driver diagrams.

 

[PGAT]

When it goes over to Southern will it run as 8 or 12 coaches?

 

[class ep-09]

It looks that 1G01 first of the day Paddington to Worcester (via Cheltenham) will be starting from Swindon now .

 

[class717]

It was only ever intended to be a few trains per day each way in the peak flow direction, possibly as low as 3 northbound in the morning peak, and 3 southbound in the evening peak. IIRC they only ever ran one or two per day pre 2020, they never planned the full number, it would have eventually been one of the last additions to get up to 24 tph in the high peak hours.

When they cut it back to London Bridge as a TL service (was that only last December?) I assumed that it would revert to SN as soon as they could sort out driver diagrams.

It was cut back start of Jan IIRC

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Realtime trains is showing some reinstated services to and from Reading and Newcastle !

Sorry if its been reported already.

 

[swt_passenger]

It was cut back start of Jan IIRC

Oh thanks, doesn't time fly. I found the previous discussion now, deferring the change from December to January did come up.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

It looks that 1G01 first of the day Paddington to Worcester (via Cheltenham) will be starting from Swindon now .

And the first Cheltenham - Paddington train (1L60) doesn’t run anymore.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Now starts at Great Malvern as 1P18

Realtime Trains | Departures from Worcester Shrub Hill between 0200 and 0159 on 25/05/2023

Train information at Worcester Shrub Hill between 0200 and 0159 on 25/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

ECS from Stoke Gifford via Worcester

Realtime Trains | 3G18 0440 Stoke Gifford to Great Malvern | 25/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 3G18 0440 departure from Stoke Gifford to Great Malvern on 25/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like the current 04.49 from Hereford to Paddington (1P01) has been withdrawn entirely, too.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It looks that 1G01 first of the day Paddington to Worcester (via Cheltenham) will be starting from Swindon now .

Connects at Swindon out if the 05.23 Paddington to Swansea, was probably overkill to have this starting from Paddington just 12 minutes later at 05.35!

And the first Cheltenham - Paddington train (1L60) doesn’t run anymore.

I understand there will be a DMU connection (still to be uploaded) in a similar time to this service as far as Swindon - not quite everything is uploaded yet.

 

[ld0595]

I've been keeping an eye out for the past few days for updates in Scotland. Looks like Cathcart Circle is still peak only with Cathcart itself still being dropped down to hourly in the evenings

 

[mangyiscute]

The thames valley relief changes are interesting to say the least - I do think it's extremely disappointing that one of the Elizabeth line services is curtailed at Maidenhead off-peak when Reading has had a local stopper to London every 15 minutes for a long time - as someone who frequently does Reading to Ealing it is a big disappointment especially since I find the 387s a lot better than the 345s for this journey anyway (tables, not mainly sideways seats and plug sockets). Plus, there still isn't technically a full service, since there are no trains from Reading/Slough to Shenfield, and as mentioned earlier, Shenfield only has one train every half hour west of Paddington
Interestingly also there are no terminal 5 trains down the abbey wood branch, they all form from terminal 4 (since heathrow express has terminal 5).
Seems to me that in the compromise between serving every possible routing, and having an even timetable, TfL have decided to lean towards the latter
Have also seen that a didcot stop has been removed from one bristol per hour and put on the Oxford terminating service, which is probably a good idea imo since that oxford one no longer has a slough call so it doesn't make much difference overall, but then Oxford to Didcot still has 2tph of stoppers as well - personally since from what I've found the vast majority of this traffic is end to end, it would be worth reducing to 1tph since the fast train can cover the other hourly service now, and have it evenly call at all stations (or perhaps like alternate Culham and Appleford) - I think this would only release one train but it also majorly reduces the number of trains turning around at Oxford which often causes delays.
For heading west from Didcot, the remaining Bristol and the Cheltenham are quite even heading away from London, but then from Swindon to Didcot it is a 10/50 split which is quite disappointing

 

[FenMan]

On the North Downs, the 2234 from Reading is restored as far as Guildford, then running empty back to Reading.

Hallelujah!

I can start planning evenings out in Reading and Oxford again and also have a more relaxed attitude to returning home in the evenings via Reading when travelling further afield.

 

[lammergeier]

Yes that’s right, although some operators‘ Business plan changes will be already in, eg Cross Country.

I have a suspicion that the reinstated Reading York/Newcastle will disappear again.

Any idea when we will know for sure? On the face of it the XC improvements actually look pretty decent albeit from a low base. This is assuming of course that the HSTs stay until replacements of whatever type (more 22x's presumably) can be brought in.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

IIRC they only ever ran one or two per day pre 2020, they never planned the full number, it would have eventually been one of the last additions to get up to 24 tph in the high peak hours.

It used to be scheduled for 2tph, which did run pre-pandemic. But ever since the pandemic, you're lucky to see it run more than once or twice a week on its 1 run a day, even with the curtailment to LBG. Hopefully this curtailment and SN handover is just a temporary arrangement, as it was a great benefit to Coastway commuters which have returned in numbers, but something tells me it won't be.