May 2023 changes

[hexagon789]

OK fair enough! Hope I didn't come across too argumentative, I didn't mean to.

Not in the slightest, hence the emojis!

I just meant to point out that these are not my proposals, rather what XC have said themselves.

Interesting that this is actually something of a move back more to the BR philosophy on IC routes which was to increase frequency at busy times and provide a thinner offering off-peak. By contrast, in recent (pre-Covid) years the philosophy has been the high-frequency all-day service. The pros to the "peak only" philosophy would be less wear and tear on the stock, and less staff time needed, but the cons would be that you can "build the market" by running an all day even interval service, and the stock requirements for an all-day high-frequency service are little more than a peak-only high-frequency service.

It depends when the Reading-Newcastles do run, I guess. For an adequate service, at a guess, they need to provide them on the Reading-Birmingham section Mon-Fri until around mid-morning and from mid-afternoon, and all day Saturday (indeed all day Mon-Fri in school holidays).

Which was also arguably more cost effective; running fewer fuller trains than more frequent, more evenly loaded ones.

 

[OrangeJuice]

I too wonder what will happen capacity wise when XC are able to run through and their planned frequencies reading to Birmingham. It's useful from Southampton to be hourly to reading and north. But I do worry about single voyagers when the Newcastle services aren't running

 

[nw1]

Oddly there is an 1833 from Birmingham to Reading (starts York 1637) on Saturdays only but nothing around that time in the week besides the Manchester to Bournemouth services. Nothing around PM commuter time during the week either.

That is strange, one would think that they would time the extras to be at the times when people would most need them, which would presumably include departures from both Birmingham and Reading sometime between 1700-1800.

Not in the slightest, hence the emojis!

I just meant to point out that these are not my proposals, rather what XC have said themselves.

Fair enough, I realised they weren't yours!

 

[Techniquest]

I guess that Saturdays Only extra is well timed for picking up shoppers in places like Sheffield though, and for those on day trips to/from different parts of the Midlands in general.

I looked today in my paper timetable and I see the 0625 Bristol Temple Meads-Stansted Airport still operates. Certainly an oddity I thought would have gone by now, and one I'm actually tempted to do as far as Gloucester just for the sheer novelty of a 170 from Bristol to Gloucester! Obviously it means an overnight stay from this part of the world, so I'd link it up with some exploring the day before as a bare minimum. Just a question of how to make it all connect up!

 

[swt_passenger]

I guess that Saturdays Only extra is well timed for picking up shoppers in places like Sheffield though, and for those on day trips to/from different parts of the Midlands in general.

I looked today in my paper timetable and I see the 0625 Bristol Temple Meads-Stansted Airport still operates. Certainly an oddity I thought would have gone by now, and one I'm actually tempted to do as far as Gloucester just for the sheer novelty of a 170 from Bristol to Gloucester! Obviously it means an overnight stay from this part of the world, so I'd link it up with some exploring the day before as a bare minimum. Just a question of how to make it all connect up!

It’s an oddity that uses an otherwise ECS move from Bristol, (because that’s where the XC regionals happen to stable overnight), to form a passenger service. It would do the mileage anyway even if not in service.

 

[Techniquest]

It’s an oddity that uses an otherwise ECS move from Bristol, (because that’s where the XC regionals happen to stable overnight), to form a passenger service. It would do the mileage anyway even if not in service.

I didn't realise they stabled one in Bristol. Interesting to know, thanks

I'll still have to get on and do it one day just for the novelty, as I look at OS map OL14 (Wye Valley & Forest of Dean, for those wondering) I'm already making an approximate plan to link up some other adventures with this one. I'll not spoil the future trip report with what I have planned

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't realise they stabled one in Bristol. Interesting to know, thanks

I'll still have to get on and do it one day just for the novelty, as I look at OS map OL14 (Wye Valley & Forest of Dean, for those wondering) I'm already making an approximate plan to link up some other adventures with this one. I'll not spoil the future trip report with what I have planned

I think it changed only a few years back, they’d previously stayed somewhere in Cardiff overnight, but I’d have to search to find exactly why and when it changed.

There’s also a very early Bristol to Cardiff service 1P00 at 0520 that then heads for Nottingham in the normal sort of path. The two opposite services at the end of the day both run as empty stock, one from Cardiff and one from Gloucester.

 

[Techniquest]

Well I'll be, I've never heard of that 0520 one. You also answered my other question, about whether or not there's such a novelty working southbound. That sure would have made it easier to do!

 

[-Colly405-]

I guess that Saturdays Only extra is well timed for picking up shoppers in places like Sheffield though, and for those on day trips to/from different parts of the Midlands in general.

I looked today in my paper timetable and I see the 0625 Bristol Temple Meads-Stansted Airport still operates. Certainly an oddity I thought would have gone by now, and one I'm actually tempted to do as far as Gloucester just for the sheer novelty of a 170 from Bristol to Gloucester! Obviously it means an overnight stay from this part of the world, so I'd link it up with some exploring the day before as a bare minimum. Just a question of how to make it all connect up!

Early Bristol to Cheltenhams are interesting.

At Gloucester...
0659 - 2E48 (0610 Bristol to Worcester) arrives on Platform 2.
0704 - 1L98 (0625 Bristol to Stansted) arrives on Platform 1.
0707 - 1S35 (0635 Bristol to Edinburgh) passes Barnwood Jn.
0708 - 1L98 departs #1 for Stansted (now behind 1S35).
0712 - 2E48 departs #2 for Wuster (now behind both 1S35 and 1L98).

Is there any other situation anywhere where a train gets overtaken by two trains, one of which is itself overtaken by the other at the same time?

 

[dvboy]

Passengers like direct trains (and prefer it where possible).

9/10 i would agree but if you're at Wolverhampton and wanting to travel to Coventry or vice versa you're probably going to take the first train to Birmingham regardless of whether it goes straight through to your destination or whether you need to change.

 

[Class 170101]

Early Bristol to Cheltenhams are interesting.

At Gloucester...
0659 - 2E48 (0610 Bristol to Worcester) arrives on Platform 2.
0704 - 1L98 (0625 Bristol to Stansted) arrives on Platform 1.
0707 - 1S35 (0635 Bristol to Edinburgh) passes Barnwood Jn.
0708 - 1L98 departs #1 for Stansted (now behind 1S35).
0712 - 2E48 departs #2 for Wuster (now behind both 1S35 and 1L98).

Is there any other situation anywhere where a train gets overtaken by two trains, one of which is itself overtaken by the other at the same time?

Arguably 1L98 in a joined up railway would probably start Cardiff and not Bristol.

 

[JonathanH]

Arguably 1L98 in a joined up railway would probably start Cardiff and not Bristol.

There is a perfectly good connection out of 1L03 0459 Swansea to London Paddington at Bristol Parkway for travellers from South Wales.

 

[Class 170101]

There is a perfectly good connection out of 1L03 0459 Swansea to London Paddington at Bristol Parkway for travellers from South Wales.

Wasn't thinking of Cardiff spefically as it also serves Chepstow, Lydney etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Wasn't thinking of Cardiff spefically as it also serves Chepstow, Lydney etc.

True, but there is no guarantee that an early train from Cardiff would stop at those two stations. It is perhaps unfortunate that 2G42 0610 Cardiff Central to Cheltenham Spa doesn't make a connection at Gloucester, but the through flow from Chepstow and Lydney to anywhere that 1L98 stops but the following 1M21 0700 Bristol Temple Meads to Manchester Piccadilly doesn't is probably quite small.

 

[stevieinselby]

Interesting that this is actually something of a move back more to the BR philosophy on IC routes which was to increase frequency at busy times and provide a thinner offering off-peak. By contrast, in recent (pre-Covid) years the philosophy has been the high-frequency all-day service. The pros to the "peak only" philosophy would be less wear and tear on the stock, and less staff time needed, but the cons would be that you can "build the market" by running an all day even interval service, and the stock requirements for an all-day high-frequency service are little more than a peak-only high-frequency service.

It depends when the Reading-Newcastles do run, I guess. For an adequate service, at a guess, they need to provide them on the Reading-Birmingham section Mon-Fri until around mid-morning and from mid-afternoon, and all day Saturday (indeed all day Mon-Fri in school holidays).

That can be easier said than done! A XCountry service from Edinburgh to Plymouth takes the best part of 10 hours, so pretty much every journey will be "peak" at some point along the way. Given that the growth market in rail is leisure travel, the idea of focusing on peak periods for XC would seem to be a massive retrograde step, so I hope that isn't the route they go down.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Arguably 1L98 in a joined up railway would probably start Cardiff and not Bristol.

That would require either another early AM empty stock move from Bristol to Cardiff, or XC to negotiate overnight stabling at Canton which is (to all intents and purposes) full to capacity. It starts from Bristol because that is where it overnights, along with another 170 which does go ECS to Cardiff for a later departure.

That can be easier said than done! A XCountry service from Edinburgh to Plymouth takes the best part of 10 hours, so pretty much every journey will be "peak" at some point along the way. Given that the growth market in rail is leisure travel, the idea of focusing on peak periods for XC would seem to be a massive retrograde step, so I hope that isn't the route they go down.

I recently spent a few hours examining the Summer 1994 timetable specifically looking at XC loco-hauled and HST diagrams. The overarching impression is quite how astonishingly thin the service was - hourly seemed to be a luxury on any axis - and how late most diagrams started / how early they returned to depot. This is illustrated by a reminder that the last XC departure from Manchester Picc was the 1800 to Birmingham New Street, M-S. There was a later service provided at 2000 by a Manchester-Euston that ran via Brum. (The 1900 went via the Trent Valley as per normal.) Other than that, the only option was a stopping service to Crewe and changing.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It never was on 5 diagrams. It's timetabled for 5, and it was hoped that during the current timetable period it would be possible to increase the diagrams up to 5, but that didn't prove possible for various reasons. Getting an the sets ready for service took a while, and there was still a level of training required to get enough crews in place to support the extra services.
It's diagrammed for 3, and sometimes there have been adhoc additional services worked to get the sets in the right place. It goes up to 4 on Monday, and hopefully 5 in June.

This is probing far from the case with the 67 and mk4 sets, again only 2 hauled sets out today with other diagrams having to be covered by DMUs.

The reliability really does seem appalling.

 

[dk1]

This is probing far from the case with the 67 and mk4 sets, again only 2 hauled sets out today with other diagrams having to be covered by DMUs.

The reliability really does seem appalling.

A mate has been caught out for the second time travelling south from Crewe just to Have dinner on its evening run to Shrewsbury/Chester only for it to either get cancelled or run with a unit.

 

[Starmill]

I too wonder what will happen capacity wise when XC are able to run through and their planned frequencies reading to Birmingham. It's useful from Southampton to be hourly to reading and north. But I do worry about single voyagers when the Newcastle services aren't running

Some of the Bournemouth services are diagrammed four car Voyager throughout, so I wouldn't get your hopes up. There will be no return of the two-hourly additional service between Southampton Central and Reading either, so it's a case of using the hourly four/five car Voyager, or changing at Basingstoke to the stopping service to Reading. Or sitting in the traffic on the A34, as most do.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A very minor change here, but it looks like all South Western Railway services south of Poole are now all booked 5-444.

Previously, there was a single Class 450 return working in service to and from Weymouth in the early morning. I believe it started at Bournemouth and returned to Brockenhurst.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

A very minor change here, but it looks like all South Western Railway services south of Poole are now all booked 5-444.

Previously, there was a single Class 450 return working in service to and from Weymouth in the early morning. I believe it started at Bournemouth and returned to Brockenhurst.

That change was made at least in the previous (Dec 22) timetable or earlier.

 

[Mag_seven]

As we are now well into the new timetable, its time to bring this discussion to a close.

thanks all.