Merseyside: New stations planned

[WatcherZero]

West Lancashire masterplan consultation has finished, no really significant changes beyond wording, there is one though. Burscough curves moves from a scheme totally ruled out to one that will be looked at in conjunction with Orskirk-Preston electrification evaluation. A combined station will also be looked at. Essentially curves moving from No to Unlikely.

 

[flypie]

West Lancashire masterplan consultation has finished, no really significant changes beyond wording, there is one though. Burscough curves moves from a scheme totally ruled out to one that will be looked at in conjunction with Orskirk-Preston electrification evaluation. A combined station will also be looked at. Essentially curves moving from No to Unlikely.

Sounds like part of the Merseyrail plan. http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-train-to-future.html

Have you a line to West Lancs Plan.

Question is if you closed both stations in Burscough and opened a new one where the lines cross, why would you need the curves?

 

[martynbristow]

I think it would be an either/or situation no need or curves and a new station.
But why move the station, it would be rather defeating.
Liverpool-Ormskirk-Southport could be a viable route, but moving burs cough station out of the town would be damaging I think

 

[flypie]

I think it would be an either/or situation no need or curves and a new station.
But why move the station, it would be rather defeating.
Liverpool-Ormskirk-Southport could be a viable route, but moving burs cough station out of the town would be damaging I think

The LCR plan talks about a dual level station at Burscough Bridge. Which doesn't make that much sense unless it is perpendicular to the S->W line, which seems rather expensive. The lines are not busy enough that a LOP train could use the curves and change direction at Burscough Bridge.
I would have though alternative Liverpool train between Southport and Preston would have been the simplest option that would only take the southern curve.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would have though alternative Liverpool train between Southport and Preston would have been the simplest option that would only take the southern curve.

Why is there perceived a need for an alternative rail route such as this ?

 

[WatcherZero]

West Lancashire plan predated the Merseyrail plan by about half a year. Only doesnt make sense to merge the two burscough stations if you install four curves and have equal service running between all four destinations or are willing to doubleback, they are only thinking of one possibly two curves (combination of Ormskirk-Southport and one of Wigan-Ormskirk or Southport-Preston) and having one station makes public transport interchange far easier as maximises the benefit of frequency while minimising cost, you lose the possibility of direct but you get the same frequency with half as many trains making connections quicker and operating costs lower. Its not like your moving the station out of town either, station at the crossroads between Burscough Bridge and School lane jsut swapping the side of the road it occupies is only moving the centre of platforms from Burscough Bridge 400m and Burscough Junction 600m and there would be room for more long term parking improving the station usability for the wider area. You have five plausible flows;

Preston-Ormskirk
Preston-Southport
Wigan-Southport
Wigan-Ormskirk
Ormskirk-Southport

One combined new station serves them all and would be cheaper to build than installing two curves and half as expensive to operate while maximising service frequency.


Remember also both Merseyrail and West Lancashire studies concluded that at present reinstatement of the curves didnt make financial sense.

 

[flypie]

Why is there perceived a need for an alternative rail route such as this ?

Ormskirk -> Southport to save people from beyond Sandhills on the Ormskirk branch having to go via Sandhills. Places like Maghull are in the Same Borough as Southport.

The Ormskirk Preston justification is in the LCR plan.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

West Lancashire plan predated the Merseyrail plan by about half a year. Only doesnt make sense to merge the two burscough stations if you install four curves and have equal service running between all four destinations or are willing to doubleback, they are only thinking of one possibly two curves (combination of Ormskirk-Southport and one of Wigan-Ormskirk or Southport-Preston) and having one station makes public transport interchange far easier as maximises the benefit of frequency while minimising cost, you lose the possibility of direct but you get the same frequency with half as many trains making connections quicker and operating costs lower. Its not like your moving the station out of town either, station at the crossroads between Burscough Bridge and School lane jsut swapping the side of the road it occupies is only moving the centre of platforms from Burscough Bridge 400m and Burscough Junction 600m and there would be room for more long term parking improving the station usability for the wider area. You have five plausible flows;




Preston-Ormskirk
Preston-Southport
Wigan-Southport
Wigan-Ormskirk
Ormskirk-Southport

One combined new station serves them all and would be cheaper to build than installing two curves and half as expensive to operate while maximising service frequency.


Remember also both Merseyrail and West Lancashire studies concluded that at present reinstatement of the curves didnt make financial sense.

There where only ever 2 curves Southport->Preston and Southport Liverpool you could do Ormskirk Wigan but it would mean using the Ormskirk Southport Curve and reversing as Burscough Bridge. Previous Ormskirk Wigan link was via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skelmersdale_Branch

 

[L+Y]

Anyone have a link to the details of the West Lancashire plan?

 

[flypie]

http://new.lancashire.gov.uk/counci...ravel/highways-and-transport-masterplans.aspx

 

[WatcherZero]

Ormskirk -> Southport to save people from beyond Sandhills on the Ormskirk branch having to go via Sandhills. Places like Maghull are in the Same Borough as Southport.

The Ormskirk Preston justification is in the LCR plan.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There where only ever 2 curves Southport->Preston and Southport Liverpool you could do Ormskirk Wigan but it would mean using the Ormskirk Southport Curve and reversing as Burscough Bridge. Previous Ormskirk Wigan link was via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skelmersdale_Branch

Yes there were originally two however a new curve (not reversing) has come up as one of the options to be studied.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ormskirk -> Southport to save people from beyond Sandhills on the Ormskirk branch having to go via Sandhills. Places like Maghull are in the same borough as Southport.

It is some while since I visited the Ormskirk area, so I will ask what is the bus service frequency, the average journey time and the number of bus routes that cover the Ormskirk to Southport route. Are there many settlements en route or hospitals that are served by these bus services?

 

[flypie]

It is some while since I visited the Ormskirk area, so I will ask what is the bus service frequency, the average journey time and the number of bus routes that cover the Ormskirk to Southport route. Are there many settlements en route or hospitals that are served by these bus services?

An improved Ormskirk->Burscough service calling at both stations and a Southport ->Moels Cop service would be welcome, the gap between the 2 small stations, if you add in Maghull, Aughton, Town Green to Southport journeys that it is likely to support a service.

The major demand is Southport Preston, plus using the Liverpool Preston route ease services on Lime Street via ST Helens and to provide better connections to LJL.

 

[Bevan Price]

It is some while since I visited the Ormskirk area, so I will ask what is the bus service frequency, the average journey time and the number of bus routes that cover the Ormskirk to Southport route. Are there many settlements en route or hospitals that are served by these bus services?

Arriva 375/385, Wigan - Skelmersdale - Ormskirk - Southport. Every 30 mins (weekday daytime), hourly in evening. Diverted from main road to serve Southport Hospital, which adds 5+ mins. journey time for passengers to/from Southport town centre.

Typical journey times from Wigan:
Skelmersdale Bus Station 35 mins
Ormskirk Bus Station 70 mins
Southport Lord St. 104 mins.
(A bit faster in the evening)
No direct bus from Wigan to Burscough, or Burscough to Southport.

 

[flypie]

The route is 11 miles from Ormskirk to Southport.

 

[L+Y]

I think I've said it before in the thread: but is electrification/redoubling of Ormskirk-Preston, and restoration of the Burscough Curves, ever really going to pass a rigorous cost/benefit analysis?

I'd love to think it would, but I have my doubts. Would be really pleased to be proved wrong, mind you.

 

[Chester1]

I think I've said it before in the thread: but is electrification/redoubling of Ormskirk-Preston, and restoration of the Burscough Curves, ever really going to pass a rigorous cost/benefit analysis?

I'd love to think it would, but I have my doubts. Would be really pleased to be proved wrong, mind you.

In the Merseyside 2011 RUS it warned that there were potential capacity problems between Liverpool and Southport by 2019-2024 as peak services were 6 cars and generally full. I dont know if this is still the case. Apparently more than 4tph is not possible between Bootle and Southport as there are allot of level crossings, meaning allot of bridges would be necessary to avoid major traffic problems. If the West-North curve was reinstated and Ormskirk-Southport speeded up to 75mph then Liverpool Central-Ormskirk-Southport would only be 5-7 mins longer than current route. I suspect it might have a better business case than upgrading the current line to 6tph. Extra capacity to Southport is a huge if though and its the only way I can see there being a good enough business case.

 

[flypie]

The Wigan SOuthport is "predominately" 70mph as it is. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/upload...ute Specifications 2011 London North West.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

I suppose you could run 2tph from Ormskirk through to Southport via that route and then keep two back just in case you want to run to Preston in the future.

Or just use all 8 and hope you could reduce the service if you ever had to.
I assume the diesel service would be cut back to Burscough which would marginally reduce the unit requirement.

 

[flypie]

There has been talk of bimodal

 

[HSTEd]

Bi-modal to avoid 11 miles of low draw third rail?

Thats just insanity.

 

[flypie]

Bi-modal to avoid 11 miles of low draw third rail?

Thats just insanity.

Cheaper than installing the stuff at the rates Network Rail wants to charge. They came up with some ridiculous quotes for the Bidston Wrexham line.
Plus there is a bit of a fight regarding Manchester Southport. GM want Manchester Wigan for Metrolink, with overhead. Where as Merseyrail would prefer 3rd rail to Southport as well as to Wigan.
Really it should not be Networkrails call.

 

[HSTEd]

The overhead/third rail thign in this instance is not actually a big issue.

Since both systems (Metrolink and Southport) use 750vDC there is no reason double electrification could not be implemented.

 

[Merseysider]

Cheaper than installing the stuff at the rates Network Rail wants to charge. They came up with some ridiculous quotes for the Bidston Wrexham line.
Plus there is a bit of a fight regarding Manchester Southport. GM want Manchester Wigan for Metrolink, with overhead. Where as Merseyrail would prefer 3rd rail to Southport as well as to Wigan.
Really it should not be Networkrails call.

GM extending Metrolink on that route would not be the best option - it'd cannibalise train revenue. Yes, the line needs extra capacity in rush hour but installing another mode of transport when there's a fully functioning railway isn't the answer.

Having trams works for Altrincham - Manchester because the rail service on that line is so dire and isn't faced with much improvement.

But 3rd rail from Southport has the advantage of making travel to and from Southport more attractive by rail and would be more efficient. It's already got 2 services an hour that barring short formation in peak hours, meets demand. 3rd rail would enable growth but if the Metrolink to Wigan takes precedence that looks like a step backwards to me.

The overhead/third rail thign in this instance is not actually a big issue.

Since both systems (Metrolink and Southport) use 750vDC there is no reason double electrification could not be implemented.

In an ideal world with much bigger coffers, yes!

 

[WatcherZero]

With Bolton line being electrified Southport services are likely to be diverted through non electrified Atherton to maximise electric traction between Wigan and Manchester.

TfGM are thinking about tram-train conversion of the Atherton line and Wigan Council are looking at a new tram alignment between Atherton and Wigan via Hindley. Merseytravel/Lancashire CC are looking at third rail extension from Ormskirk to Burscough and Kirkby to Skelmersdale and possibly as far as Wigan with Burscough to Preston as 25kv electrification. No one at the moment is looking at electrifying the Southport line, it would remain a diesel island for the forseeable future however if it was electrified it would almost certainly be 25kv overhead not 750v third rail due to the costs on a long rural route.

Merseyrail is planning for eventually having a 750/25kv dual voltage fleet so that trains could reach Manchester and Preston.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At its peak, Southport station once had eleven service platforms and two excursion platforms and still has six platforms.

Would the reconfiguration of the non-electrified platforms allow for dedicated platforms in the middle section area for the services being proposed, without affecting the existing third-rail platforms?

 

[flypie]

A through service from Liverpool Central via Wigan to Manchester has a lot of potential IMHO as it links the North of both cities and would perhaps take traffic of the east Lancs. It was a popular route as was the more Southerly route via Warrington BQ and Altincham. The idea of creating regional power house would be well served by reinstating the extra routes and at a lower cost and sooner than HS3.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A through service from Liverpool Central via Wigan to Manchester has a lot of potential IMHO as it links the North of both cities and would perhaps take traffic of the east Lancs. It was a popular route as was the more Southerly route via Warrington BQ and Altincham. The idea of creating regional power house would be well served by reinstating the extra routes and at a lower cost and sooner than HS3.

Were you making reference to the former Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway route from Liverpool to Manchester in your posting above ?

 

[flypie]

Yup. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_to_Manchester_Lines#Other_routes

 

[edwin_m]

TfGM are thinking about tram-train conversion of the Atherton line and Wigan Council are looking at a new tram alignment between Atherton and Wigan via Hindley. Merseytravel/Lancashire CC are looking at third rail extension from Ormskirk to Burscough and Kirkby to Skelmersdale and possibly as far as Wigan with Burscough to Preston as 25kv electrification. No one at the moment is looking at electrifying the Southport line, it would remain a diesel island for the forseeable future however if it was electrified it would almost certainly be 25kv overhead not 750v third rail due to the costs on a long rural route.

Merseyrail is planning for eventually having a 750/25kv dual voltage fleet so that trains could reach Manchester and Preston.

Third rail in either Wigan or Preston would involve a big signalling cost as the signalling isn't DC immune and is unlikely to be replaced for a decade or more. So I agree the only likely 750Vdc extensions are likely to be short ones of existing Merseyrail services.

Presumably if there is an alternative route for any tram-trains from Atherton to Wigan they wouldn't need to be tram-trains as they wouldn't share track with trains.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think what they would go for would be a high frequency Atherton-Manchester-beyond, lower frequency Wigan-Manchester-beyond and a odd Southport/freight path an hour. Would also likely eventually be a slower tram from Wigan-Atherton too.