Merseyside: New stations planned

[Wavertreelad]

With Bolton line being electrified Southport services are likely to be diverted through non electrified Atherton to maximise electric traction between Wigan and Manchester.

TfGM are thinking about tram-train conversion of the Atherton line and Wigan Council are looking at a new tram alignment between Atherton and Wigan via Hindley. Merseytravel/Lancashire CC are looking at third rail extension from Ormskirk to Burscough and Kirkby to Skelmersdale and possibly as far as Wigan with Burscough to Preston as 25kv electrification. No one at the moment is looking at electrifying the Southport line, it would remain a diesel island for the forseeable future however if it was electrified it would almost certainly be 25kv overhead not 750v third rail due to the costs on a long rural route.

Merseyrail is planning for eventually having a 750/25kv dual voltage fleet so that trains could reach Manchester and Preston.

The Kirkby - Wigan line is supposed to be having an upgrade to allow intermodal trains to run to and from Potter railhead to the WCML. This railhead is also next to the Peel Knowsley 700 site and presently does not affect the Merseyrail service to Kirkby. However, if Merseytravel eventually does achieve constructing a new station at Headbolt Lane beyond the present limit of the line, I would not be surprised to see any extension beyond Kirkby to be electrified at 25kv which would allow through running to Wigan. If, as I proposed in an earlier post, it was possible to construct a link between the Bootle Branch and the Kirkby line to the south of Kirkdale Station it would transform the prospects of the project as it would all trains from Liverpool docks to reach the WCML at Wigan as an alternative to the potentially congested Chat Moss route in years to come.

 

[flypie]

What you looking for there is a reinstatement of the North Mersey Branch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Mersey_Branch it would involve. The Canada Dock Branch has a junction with the Mersey rail line between Bank Hall and Bootle Oriel Road there is enough space on there is enough old track bed to the west of the current line for lines to connect from that junction to NMB with passing through any active platforms.

 

[edwin_m]

The TfGM tram-train proposal would convert the Atherton line to light rail only. This means no signalling would be required and there would be no need to increase structure clearances for electrification, as Metrolink trams are lower than trains. Hence there is quite a bit of cost saving. Arguably there is some loss of flexibility but it is still possible to run Manchester-Wigan trains via Bolton or Golborne and no likelihood of the Atherton route being needed for freight. The junction north of Salford Crescent would also be taken out, allowing platform lengthening in future.

Under the original proposal tram-trains would share track between Crow Nest and Wigan, which would be electrified at 25kV (as has since been announced under a separate scheme).

 

[WatcherZero]

They havent at any stage proposed exclusive use of lines, indeed they are proposing to desegregate the end of the Altrincham line so tram-trains and trains share the same tracks rather than having single line working. The Metrolink trams are slightly narrower but they are in fact taller than some electrics not shorter.

M5000: W 2.65m, H 3.67m
T68: W 2.65m, H 3.70m
317: W 2.82m, H 3.70m
319: W 2.82m, H 3.58m
323: W 2.8m, H 3.78m
142: W 2.8m, H 3.86m
15x: W 2.82m, H 3.81m

 

[edwin_m]

They havent at any stage proposed exclusive use of lines, indeed they are proposing to desegregate the end of the Altrincham line so tram-trains and trains share the same tracks rather than having single track working. The Metrolink trams are slightly narrower but they are in fact taller than some electrics not shorter.

I know more than I can say on this one, so we'll have to leave it at that.

 

[Wavertreelad]

What you looking for there is a reinstatement of the North Mersey Branch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Mersey_Branch it would involve. The Canada Dock Branch has a junction with the Mersey rail line between Bank Hall and Bootle Oriel Road there is enough space on there is enough old track bed to the west of the current line for lines to connect from that junction to NMB with passing through any active platforms.

That would not work, the trackbed between Gladstone Dock and the North Mersey line disappeared probably 40 years ago and now has residential developments over a large part of it. The junction between Bank Hall and Oriel Road still exists but this would require trains to cross to and from the Southport line and then run round the train to reach the dock estate and vice versa. As far as I know a single line trackbed from the junction to Aintree is still in place, but is heavily overgrown but it would only give access to the Ormskirk/Preston line. Merseytravel have put restoring passengers services to the North Mersey Line on the list of projects for the next 30 years, with new stations at Linacre Road and Ford, so it would seem unlikely the North Mersey Line would be used for freight given the complications it would create for Merseyrail trains. The link below contains a map showing the original route and options but I am almost fairly sure the line beyond Sefton Junction and Fazerkerly Junction is now blocked.

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/ford/

Assuming therefore the Kirkby Wigan route was upgraded for intermodal traffic it would suggest that at some stage it would also be electrified and presumably at 25kv to allow electric traction of the freight trains. To avoid the need for trains too and from the dock estate having to reverse and block the Southport Line and potentially a reopened North Mersey Line, my proposal is that a junction is created on the east side of Kirkdale station where Bootle Branch passes under the Kirkby line in a fairly deep cutting. My proposal would then involve excavating a gradient from the junction to run parallel on the south side of the Kirkby lines to Walton Junction where the line would join a double tracked line to Kirkby and Wigan.

The link below shows Atlantic Junction which is site where the branch to Canada Dock left the Bootle Branch which in the distance reaches the Southport Line and Alexandra Dock, whilst in the foreground it passes under Kirkdale station and the original four (L&Y ?) tracks which passed through the station.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/45827152@N07/5993697422/

Unfortunately I have not been able to trace any images of the other side of the tunnel but the image below shows the wide cutting and short tunnel to the north of Kirkdale Station.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39281354@N05/5930997465

 

[L+Y]

original four (L&Y ?) tracks which passed through the station.

ELR initially, and then L&Y. There were two tracks through the station and two avoiding lines: notionally these were fast and slow lines, but plenty of fast trains ran through the station, and plenty of slow trains avoided it!

... Which in a way, links back to the discussion a bit earlier of Ormskirk to Preston. That line was built, and existed up until 1970, as the fast main line into Liverpool from points northwards, and at present isn't particularly well suited to limping along as a rural branchline, never mind as part of an extended Merseyrail network. Upgrading and electrification of Ormskirk-Preston, to my mind, only really makes sense in the context of a restored Exchange station to free up space at Lime Street: you could in theory divert Blackpool trains via Ormskirk, and Transpennine ones via Wigan and Kirkby. But I really struggle to see financial justification for that existing.

As for 6TPH to Southport: some suggested Burscough South Curve, which could be an idea: but how about reinstating four tracks from Bank Hall to Bootle and running semi-fasts that would overtake stopping trains in this section, to increase capacity on the Southport line?

 

[flypie]

Restoring the Preston Ormskirk with direct train through to central would take people how would otherwise change at Preston or Wigan for Liverpool. If or when on improved connection to LJL is built it would provide direct access there. the LOPR was only even an auxiliary express route.

The capacity limit on the Southport line is mainly caused by the 9 of Level Crossings the opening and closing for 6 TPH would badly disrupt traffic, and at between 10 and 20 million a pop to replace them it isn't going to happen soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With the South Curve reinstated it would be possible to run a Circular, with a reverse at Southport. Liv->Orm->Sou->Liv and the reverse. Also would effective provide through trains to Meols Cop and perhaps St Lukes, providing a better cross Southport link.

 

[Chester1]

Restoring the Preston Ormskirk with direct train through to central would take people how would otherwise change at Preston or Wigan for Liverpool. If or when on improved connection to LJL is built it would provide direct access there. the LOPR was only even an auxiliary express route.

The capacity limit on the Southport line is mainly caused by the 9 of Level Crossings the opening and closing for 6 TPH would badly disrupt traffic, and at between 10 and 20 million a pop to replace them it isn't going to happen soon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With the South Curve reinstated it would be possible to run a Circular, with a reverse at Southport. Liv->Orm->Sou->Liv and the reverse. Also would effective provide through trains to Meols Cop and perhaps St Lukes, providing a better cross Southport link.

I think Southport capacity is key to electifying Ormskirk to Preston. I cant imagine that electrifying and speeding up to 75mph Ormskirk to Southport is going to cost as much as £90-180m therefore its the obvious solution. The business case for electrifying Preston-Burscough and reinstating the other curve to allow electric Preston-southport and Preston-Liverpool central services then becomes much better.

 

[Wavertreelad]

ELR initially, and then L&Y. There were two tracks through the station and two avoiding lines: notionally these were fast and slow lines, but plenty of fast trains ran through the station, and plenty of slow trains avoided it!

... Which in a way, links back to the discussion a bit earlier of Ormskirk to Preston. That line was built, and existed up until 1970, as the fast main line into Liverpool from points northwards, and at present isn't particularly well suited to limping along as a rural branchline, never mind as part of an extended Merseyrail network. Upgrading and electrification of Ormskirk-Preston, to my mind, only really makes sense in the context of a restored Exchange station to free up space at Lime Street: you could in theory divert Blackpool trains via Ormskirk, and Transpennine ones via Wigan and Kirkby. But I really struggle to see financial justification for that existing.

As for 6TPH to Southport: some suggested Burscough South Curve, which could be an idea: but how about reinstating four tracks from Bank Hall to Bootle and running semi-fasts that would overtake stopping trains in this section, to increase capacity on the Southport line?

The 20 Miles More (2MM) proposals have a reopened Exchange as the Liverpool terminus for HS2/HS3 because of the difficulties in putting HS2/3 into Lime Street as well of course freeing up space for future services. Assuming the 2MM proposals were adopted there are two options with the first constructing a link to the Waterloo tunnel and Edge Hill, although from there it would be difficult to construct a new line to open country. The second would mean restoring four tracking of the Kirkby line to Kirkdale before utilising the Walton Tunnels to turn back south using the Outer Liverpool Loop and eventually open country. Otherwise there would seem little chance of Exchange being rebuilt for Merseyrail services, but enlarging Central might be a necessity in any event.

I think Southport capacity is key to electifying Ormskirk to Preston. I cant imagine that electrifying and speeding up to 75mph Ormskirk to Southport is going to cost as much as £90-180m therefore its the obvious solution. The business case for electrifying Preston-Burscough and reinstating the other curve to allow electric Preston-southport and Preston-Liverpool central services then becomes much better.

One assumes that at some stage, the Southport Manchester route would be electrified at 25kv, which would leave the Preston Ormskirk route as another diesel island. Potentially this could have a "sparks" effect along the route which if the two were tackled as one project, including restoring one or more of the curves at Burscough. A knock on effect of electrifying both routes and reconnecting the curves could allow 2 tph Central to Preston and 2 tph to Southport via Ormskirk, but with all four services running via a reopened North Mersey line between Aintree and Bootle Oriel Road. This would leave the Kirkby to Wigan line sufficient capacity to handle freight traffic. The only problem would then become dispersal of services beyond Central as turning trains there would no longer be an option, and presumably this is were the Wapping Tunnel scheme provides an option, or even Warrington via a CLC route electrified line at 25kv.

 

[flypie]

With 20 miles more, the exchange idea seemed to predate the HS2 idea. The cost of rebuilding all the lines and the station would be great. It also then takes us back to a situation of having multiple main line stations without any connection. For about the same price you could lower the floor of the Waterloo tunnel to take 2 HS2 trains and then at turn south and have a full size international station beneath Lime Street, with a walkway to Central.
There are also several routes into the city which take little or no new green land.

http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2013/12/hs2-phase-2-liverpool.html
http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2014/07/from-ditton-to-lime-street.html
http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2014/07/east-of-lymm.html

 

[Wavertreelad]

With 20 miles more, the exchange idea seemed to predate the HS2 idea. The cost of rebuilding all the lines and the station would be great. It also then takes us back to a situation of having multiple main line stations without any connection. For about the same price you could lower the floor of the Waterloo tunnel to take 2 HS2 trains and then at turn south and have a full size international station beneath Lime Street, with a walkway to Central.
There are also several routes into the city which take little or no new green land.

http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2013/12/hs2-phase-2-liverpool.html
http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2014/07/from-ditton-to-lime-street.html
http://peterirate.blogspot.com/2014/07/east-of-lymm.html

Both options were put forward in the final report, although I agree they place Lime Street in the top place. The question of multiple main line stations is not necessarily an issue as the Exchange could be linked to Moorfields with walkways, from where connections would be available to Lime Street and Central for any traveller wishing to connect to local Merseyrail services. If Merseytravel build the tunnel connecting the south side of Central to Edge Hill using the Wapping Tunnel travellers there could be the possibility of direct services to and from the City Line. Using Exchange also avoids expensive tunnelling and avoids disruption to existing services as well as regenerating the surrounding area, which is also more convenient to the business quarter, The Liverpool Cruise Terminal, hotels and about equidistant from the Liverpool1 and main shop area.

 

[flypie]

Both options were put forward in the final report, although I agree they place Lime Street in the top place. The question of multiple main line stations is not necessarily an issue as the Exchange could be linked to Moorfields with walkways, from where connections would be available to Lime Street and Central for any traveller wishing to connect to local Merseyrail services. If Merseytravel build the tunnel connecting the south side of Central to Edge Hill using the Wapping Tunnel travellers there could be the possibility of direct services to and from the City Line. Using Exchange also avoids expensive tunnelling and avoids disruption to existing services as well as regenerating the surrounding area, which is also more convenient to the business quarter, The Liverpool Cruise Terminal, hotels and about equidistant from the Liverpool1 and main shop area.

Having multiple main line stations as you have first to 5 mins to get to Moorfields then 3 minutes on the train plus the time to get back to Lime street. It is a 15 minute minimum which just increased you chances of having to get a latter train. You cannot measure how off putting changing stations if by the simple measuring of distance or time.

Most of the via duct needed for exchange has been demolished and some re used. The section of line between Rice Lane and the NLEL mainline had housing built on it.

Liverpool Waters will regenerate that area in which case the rebuilding of Exchange will just take valuable land.

 

[edwin_m]

Exchange could be linked to Moorfields with walkways, from where connections would be available to Lime Street

"To" being the operative word. Travelling from Lime Street would need another change at Central or James Street!

 

[flypie]

"To" being the operative word. Travelling from Lime Street would need another change at Central or James Street!

Ignore me talking crap. How do you delete a message?

 

[Wavertreelad]

Having multiple main line stations as you have first to 5 mins to get to Moorfields then 3 minutes on the train plus the time to get back to Lime street. It is a 15 minute minimum which just increased you chances of having to get a latter train. You cannot measure how off putting changing stations if by the simple measuring of distance or time.

Most of the via duct needed for exchange has been demolished and some re used. The section of line between Rice Lane and the NLEL mainline had housing built on it.

Liverpool Waters will regenerate that area in which case the rebuilding of Exchange will just take valuable land.

Assuming Liverpool is able to gain a full HS2 service the platforms would be somewhat remote from the existing Lime Street trainshed and probably a good five minutes walk from platforms 1-6 which currently serve local services. Building a relatively short tunnel between the Wapping Tunnel and the Northern Line to the south of Central would allow trains to operate in both direction to and from a wider range of destinations at the southern end of the line including to the east on the City Line. Potentially therefore, the Exchange/Moorfields combination offers a better combination of direct local service for HS2/3 services than Lime Street which only offers a direct connection to the City Line. Passengers using Lime Street to and for the Northern & Wirral Lines have at least a five minute walk to reach a platform which ever way the stations are engineered.

I'd agree all the viaducts from Leeds Street to Sherwood Street have been demolished and those areas used for carparking or light industrial use that could be relatively easy relocated. From Sherwood Street it appears the 2MM plan is to slew the Merseyrail lines nearer the river before eventually entering the Walton Tunnels. From here to Walton Hall Avenue the would appear to need some tunnelling under the residential developments and parkland, although this might also include Everton's new stadium. The only area of tunnelling required might be at Broadgreen if the HS2/3 alignment was to turn east to reach the north to south HS2 route. The amount of tunnelling would be considerably less than any route into Lime Street which would also require further tunnelling from Edge Hill to reach open country, and would cause considerable disruption, whilst the Exchange proposal offers the possibility of being constructed with the minimum disruption to train services.

 

[flypie]

Assuming Liverpool is able to gain a full HS2 service the platforms would be somewhat remote from the existing Lime Street trainshed and probably a good five minutes walk from platforms 1-6 which currently serve local services. Building a relatively short tunnel between the Wapping Tunnel and the Northern Line to the south of Central would allow trains to operate in both direction to and from a wider range of destinations at the southern end of the line including to the east on the City Line. Potentially therefore, the Exchange/Moorfields combination offers a better combination of direct local service for HS2/3 services than Lime Street which only offers a direct connection to the City Line. Passengers using Lime Street to and for the Northern & Wirral Lines have at least a five minute walk to reach a platform which ever way the stations are engineered.

I'd agree all the viaducts from Leeds Street to Sherwood Street have been demolished and those areas used for carparking or light industrial use that could be relatively easy relocated. From Sherwood Street it appears the 2MM plan is to slew the Merseyrail lines nearer the river before eventually entering the Walton Tunnels. From here to Walton Hall Avenue the would appear to need some tunnelling under the residential developments and parkland, although this might also include Everton's new stadium. The only area of tunnelling required might be at Broadgreen if the HS2/3 alignment was to turn east to reach the north to south HS2 route. The amount of tunnelling would be considerably less than any route into Lime Street which would also require further tunnelling from Edge Hill to reach open country, and would cause considerable disruption, whilst the Exchange proposal offers the possibility of being constructed with the minimum disruption to train services.

The point of keeping it all in the same building is that makes it feel far shorter than having to leave and go to another. Getting a local train in to Central then getting to Lime Street is not simple. And adding the link to the Wapping Tunnel adds to the cost of the project.

The old Exchange wasn't long enough to take the 450m plus Eurotrains and with the extra space taken by Mercury court the new platforms would have to stretch at least 100m past Leeds street.

Non of the proposals from 20MM involve Tunnelling from edge hill to open country as the Olive Mount cutting is wide enough and high enough to take HS2 traffic.
The 20MM route the one I proposed has only the explanation of the Waterloo Tunnel, by lowering the floor and the digging of the station. The rest is a mixture of gauge expansion and the reuse of old or under used alignments.

 

[HSTEd]

I put together a proposal for platforms at Exchange that requires essentially no tunnelling at all.

Although it was singlet rack and loops which might not be good enough for the politically required Liverpool spur. Although it would handle the timetabled trains easily enough.

Also connects to HS2 near Wigan for reduced cost.

 

[HowardGWR]

This is very interesting but a few diagrams or maps would help. I found this blog and I don't know whether some images here would help.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercit....html#Liverpool_FC_and_the_Canada_Dock_Branch

 

[Wavertreelad]

The point of keeping it all in the same building is that makes it feel far shorter than having to leave and go to another. Getting a local train in to Central then getting to Lime Street is not simple. And adding the link to the Wapping Tunnel adds to the cost of the project.

The old Exchange wasn't long enough to take the 450m plus Eurotrains and with the extra space taken by Mercury court the new platforms would have to stretch at least 100m past Leeds street.

Non of the proposals from 20MM involve Tunnelling from edge hill to open country as the Olive Mount cutting is wide enough and high enough to take HS2 traffic.
The 20MM route the one I proposed has only the explanation of the Waterloo Tunnel, by lowering the floor and the digging of the station. The rest is a mixture of gauge expansion and the reuse of old or under used alignments.

I'd agree having all the trains in one building would be ideal, but the proposed HS2 station for Lime Street appears to be between Skelhorne Street and Copperas Hill. The 2MM report suggests the Mercury Court offices could be demolished, but still retaining the original Exchange façade whilst building the platforms diagonally across the site would allow HS2 platforms to be built straight as there is plenty of space on the north side of Leeds Street for the station to be built over the road.

Adding the Wapping Tunnel scheme is not necessarily conditional on HS2/HS3 as the scheme has been around since the 1970's and would potentially add a large number of potential direct journey options including City Line to the Wirral assuming the present service tunnel was brought into service for passenger use. As far as HS2/HS3 is concerned surely it must be assumed passengers using these services would be either travelling to or from Liverpool or the surrounding area. An Exchange/Moorfields combination would offer a direct service to every destination on the Merseyrail network and City Lines far more conveniently than Lime Street. I don't therefore understand the comment "Getting a local train in to Central then getting to Lime Street is not simple."

I'd agree the 20MM report suggests using the part of the disused Waterloo Tunnel but then it talks in terms of tunnelling under Chat Moss Lines almost as far as Broadgreen and involves 9.9 km of tunnel to Bowring Park whilst the Exchange route whilst longer involves considerably less new tunnelling. To get HS2/3 through Olive Mount Cutting on ground level would potentially sever Bootle Branch currently the only rail route to the Port of Liverpool as well as require some sort of flyover to allow HS2/3 trains to reach the south side of the cutting, before requiring another tunnel for the HS2/3 line to reach open country which ever is route is selected. The report predates the HS3 proposal, but I suspect would now favour the Culcheth route following the south of the M62.

 

[flypie]

Assuming Liverpool is able to gain a full HS2 service the platforms would be somewhat remote from the existing Lime Street trainshed and probably a good five minutes walk from platforms 1-6 which currently serve local services. Building a relatively short tunnel between the Wapping Tunnel and the Northern Line to the south of Central would allow trains to operate in both direction to and from a wider range of destinations at the southern end of the line including to the east on the City Line. Potentially therefore, the Exchange/Moorfields combination offers a better combination of direct local service for HS2/3 services than Lime Street which only offers a direct connection to the City Line. Passengers using Lime Street to and for the Northern & Wirral Lines have at least a five minute walk to reach a platform which ever way the stations are engineered.

I'd agree all the viaducts from Leeds Street to Sherwood Street have been demolished and those areas used for carparking or light industrial use that could be relatively easy relocated. From Sherwood Street it appears the 2MM plan is to slew the Merseyrail lines nearer the river before eventually entering the Walton Tunnels. From here to Walton Hall Avenue the would appear to need some tunnelling under the residential developments and parkland, although this might also include Everton's new stadium. The only area of tunnelling required might be at Broadgreen if the HS2/3 alignment was to turn east to reach the north to south HS2 route. The amount of tunnelling would be considerably less than any route into Lime Street which would also require further tunnelling from Edge Hill to reach open country, and would cause considerable disruption, whilst the Exchange proposal offers the possibility of being constructed with the minimum disruption to train services.

I'd agree having all the trains in one building would be ideal, but the proposed HS2 station for Lime Street appears to be between Skelhorne Street and Copperas Hill. The 2MM report suggests the Mercury Court offices could be demolished, but still retaining the original Exchange façade whilst building the platforms diagonally across the site would allow HS2 platforms to be built straight as there is plenty of space on the north side of Leeds Street for the station to be built over the road.

Adding the Wapping Tunnel scheme is not necessarily conditional on HS2/HS3 as the scheme has been around since the 1970's and would potentially add a large number of potential direct journey options including City Line to the Wirral assuming the present service tunnel was brought into service for passenger use. As far as HS2/HS3 is concerned surely it must be assumed passengers using these services would be either travelling to or from Liverpool or the surrounding area. An Exchange/Moorfields combination would offer a direct service to every destination on the Merseyrail network and City Lines far more conveniently than Lime Street. I don't therefore understand the comment "Getting a local train in to Central then getting to Lime Street is not simple."

I'd agree the 20MM report suggests using the part of the disused Waterloo Tunnel but then it talks in terms of tunnelling under Chat Moss Lines almost as far as Broadgreen and involves 9.9 km of tunnel to Bowring Park whilst the Exchange route whilst longer involves considerably less new tunnelling. To get HS2/3 through Olive Mount Cutting on ground level would potentially sever Bottle Branch currently the only rail route to the Port of Liverpool as well as require some sort of flyover to allow HS2/3 trains to reach the south side of the cutting, before requiring another tunnel for the HS2/3 line to reach open country which ever is route is selected. The report predates the HS3 proposal, but I suspect would now favour the Culcheth route following the south of the M62.

There are proposals for services from Lime Street to North Wales. While there are plans to move some City Lines to Central the number of platforms at Central limits the number that can actually be there. SO there would be a need for Limestreet to Moorfield service which would be a pain.

Plus there is no money to do the Wapping scheme and no time schedule which means adding it to the HS2 costs. The only way this is going to get done is with the cheapest scheme, you might be able to swing one with more growth potential if the extra cost was not to much.

HS2 and conventional trains can share the same lines provide their is enough width, the minimum high for the OHLE is lower than the minimum height requirement for WCML etc. So there is no need in the Olive Mount cutting to separate traffic.

One proposed extension is to add platforms to the south of the current station but it would be still be Lime Street Station still use the same common facilities. It would be sold and signed as Lime Street.

The simplest Waterloo tunnel use involves having a single line into the tunnel, perhaps in a trench and using the gaps at the side as platforms. With travelators in tunnels crossing in small tunnels to the main station.

The full 20 Miles report is here. http://issuu.com/archetype-studio/docs/20_miles_more_report__a_counterprop?e=10657840/6537813#

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The full 20 Miles report is here. http://issuu.com/archetype-studio/docs/20_miles_more_report__a_counterprop?e=10657840/6537813#

I lost interest in that report when I read the bit where it accuses Wigan, Warrington and Chester (particularly) of "poaching" passengers who should rightly be travelling from Liverpool.

 

[Wavertreelad]

There are proposals for services from Lime Street to North Wales. While there are plans to move some City Lines to Central the number of platforms at Central limits the number that can actually be there. SO there would be a need for Limestreet to Moorfield service which would be a pain.

Plus there is no money to do the Wapping scheme and no time schedule which means adding it to the HS2 costs. The only way this is going to get done is with the cheapest scheme, you might be able to swing one with more growth potential if the extra cost was not to much.

HS2 and conventional trains can share the same lines provide their is enough width, the minimum high for the OHLE is lower than the minimum height requirement for WCML etc. So there is no need in the Olive Mount cutting to separate traffic.

One proposed extension is to add platforms to the south of the current station but it would be still be Lime Street Station still use the same common facilities. It would be sold and signed as Lime Street.

The simplest Waterloo tunnel use involves having a single line into the tunnel, perhaps in a trench and using the gaps at the side as platforms. With travelators in tunnels crossing in small tunnels to the main station.

The full 20 Miles report is here. http://issuu.com/archetype-studio/docs/20_miles_more_report__a_counterprop?e=10657840/6537813#

I'm aware of the likelihood of the new services into Lime Street which is inevitably going to bring further pressure on capacity into the station irrespective of HS2/3 developments. Without the Wapping Tunnel project, the only services that can be transferred from the City Line to Central are those running to and from the CLC route which would also need to be electrified. Furthermore that last thing you want is trains starting and stopping journeys at Central because of the lack of platform capacity. In this respect Merseytravel have already stated that Central will need additional platform capacity if growth continues at existing levels, which is almost inevitable if additional stations and routes are added to the network. The problem is the majority of the likely additions will also be in the north of the network with only options in the south of the network being along the CLC route. The Wapping Tunnel proposal offers the prospect of direct services from the Chat Moss route being able to reach the Wirral, Southport etc., or even North Wales via the Halton Curve thereby converting terminal services to through services and creating more capacity at Central. Whilst I accept that nobody is going to travel for instance from Wigan to Southport via Liverpool Central on effectively a pendulum style service, it does means that the use of the rolling stock is maximised and avoids the situation of rolling stock occupying platforms not generating revenue, ie only a train only generates revenue when it is carrying passengers and moving.

I'd agree travelling from Lime Street to Exchange would be a pain, but equally little more than it is now for passengers transferring between a Virgin train and a Northern Line service. Without building a second loop to operate in the opposite direction to present one, there is no real alternative with or without HS2/3.

As to the funding of the Wapping Tunnel Scheme, I'd agree it is proposal that is probably not going to happen in the next five years and in any case it would be dependant on any expansion of Central. By then the "sparks" effect of the NW electrification will have become apparent, and any new Merseyrail dual voltage stock will be either entering service or in service. Given the cost of Thameslink and Crossrail the cost of the Wapping Tunnel scheme is likely to be miniscule although any extension to Central could be quite costly.

In respect of the eastern approach routes in and out of either stations the 20MM report states

"The route could be adapted to serve either Liverpool Exchange or Liverpool Lime Street stations and to reach open country either at Bowring Park, or further south at Gateacre. The route sections shown on the map are as follows:
Section 1: The approach to Liverpool Exchange HS2. The route descends as it heads north to a tunnel entrance north of the line of the Kingsway road tunnel.
Section 2: The first tunnelled section. This comprises two single-bore parallel tunnels curving at a maximum radius of 400m to turn the route eastwards and toward the line of the existing disused Waterloo / Victoria tunnel.
Section 3: A link from Lime Street HS2 to the Waterloo / Victoria tunnel where it joins the alignment of the Exchange option.
Section 4: This section of route consists of two parallel tunnels. The northern one is a new tunnel whereas the southern is the existing Victoria tunnel converted to contain one line to HS2 gauge. Both tunnels emerge at the north side of Edge Hill station.
Section 5: From Edge Hill to Wavertree, both lines run at ground level to the north of the existing tracks. Both lines descend in-cutting toward their east end.
Section 6: The northern line enters a tunnel to the west end of Wavertree Technology Park Station and continues in-tunnel parallel to the Olive Mount cutting and beneath the Canada Dock branch tunnels. The southern line runs beneath the existing Liverpool-Manchester line in an underpass and runs parallel and to the south of these lines within the Olive Mount cutting, occupying the part-abandoned formation of the former four-track route. Just short of the Queens Drive overbridge, the line veers to the south and enters a tunnel.
Section 7: The northern and southern routes converge and run parallel in-tunnel as far as a new portal to the south of the M62 motorway at the limit of the built-up area.
Section 8: An alternative to the above. The two lines emerge from tunnel onto the existing Liverpool Outer Loop line and continue at surface level as far as Gateacre where they curve to the east directly into open country"

Whilst I agree conventional and HS2/3 trains could share the tracks through Olive Mount Cutting, but this would still mean the HS2/3 tracks would be on the north side of the cutting requiring HS2/3 services to cross the Chat Moss Lines to enable the them access a new tunnel on the southern side of the cutting to the west of the Queens Drive overbridge. To overcome this problem, the report suggests the HS2/3 route is tunnelled under the entire length of Olive Mount Cutting which avoids the need to skewing the existing Chat Moss Lines, and removing the bank which is presently used as an point to Olive Mount Junction but originally led to the long demolished flyover where roughly the present Stephenson Way bridge crosses the Chat Moss lines. Another alternative not mentioned in the report would be to remove the bank allowing the Chat Moss to be skewed to northern side of the cutting then rebuilding Wavertree Tech Park Station to serve the newly skewed Chat Moss Lines. The HS2/3 lines could then dive under the skewed Chat Moss lines between Picton Road bridge and the junction with the Bootle Branch so they would then be on south side of the cutting passing through the middle and southern spans of Rathbone Road Bridge onwards to the new diverging tunnel near to Queens Drive.
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I lost interest in that report when I read the bit where it accuses Wigan, Warrington and Chester (particularly) of "poaching" passengers who should rightly be travelling from Liverpool.

I assume you mean page 33

"The low frequency of the Liverpool-London service warps Liverpool’s natural catchment area so that it appears smaller than it should be. The catchment area is where the door-to-door journey time is least.
The relatively low frequency of Liverpool services shrinks Liverpool’s catchment. The result is that places that might otherwise be in Liverpool’s catchment area end up outside of it, and the presence of stations which have rival London services, such as Wigan North West, Warrington Bank Quay and Chester, means that it becomes more convenient to use these alternative services instead.

I interpreted this slightly differently in so far that a HS2 route via these locations to Liverpool generate more bums on seats and thus the business case for an HS2 connection to Liverpool which is always going to be a terminal destination. Obviously now with the prospect of HS3 being considered, the case for including those bum figures to and from Chester and Wigan drop out of the calculation. The proposal to include Crewe in the HS2 phase 1 scheme would probably mean that it would be quicker from Chester and some parts of South Wirral via Crewe. On a door/door basis this may also be true today using the hourly Virgin service from Liverpool. One can only assume Wigan was included because as it stands there is no other "terminal destination" for captive services north of the Manchester HS2 branch.

 

[WatcherZero]

There were two reasons Wigan was included, firstly it was the best location for classic compatible services rejoin the WCML to reach Scotland, further north and it becomes a lot more costly due to progressivley hillier terrain with more tunnels and viaducts required (Rejoining the WCML north of Preston was presented as an option reccomended not to pursue by HS2 as it missed out on Wigan and Preston passengers, Preston would have had a very poorly linked parkway station which wasnt predicted to have much usership due to remoteness and a interchange at Hindley for Wigan lines was in the long list of station options but didnt reach the shortlist) further south the built up area around Warrington produced a barrier. Secondly the rolling stock depot for the western arm is planned to be in the borough on a triangular junction with the WCML to allow easy access to the classic network for the depot.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Would Widnes South ever be a possible candidate for re-opening ?

 

[flypie]

Would Widnes South ever be a possible candidate for re-opening ?

I'd like to see the reopening of that station and line BQ to Lime Street via Widnes would seem to be a good idea.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd like to see the reopening of that station and line BQ to Lime Street via Widnes would seem to be a good idea.

Might have to wait until Fiddlers Ferry power station closes though.
I don't think there is a closure date yet, as it has been upgraded to reduce its emissions and burn biomass.
However, the line was always a slow low-grade route with many level crossings and sharp curves through Warrington.
It runs well away from most housing, though there have been some new developments around Sankey Bridges.
Potential stations towards Liverpool are also poorly sited, and Warrington BQ would be a dead end, with no links to the WCML without reversal.
It used to serve all the local industries, but they have all closed or turned their back on the railway, bar Fiddlers Ferry.

 

[flypie]

Might have to wait until Fiddlers Ferry power station closes though.
I don't think there is a closure date yet, as it has been upgraded to reduce its emissions and burn biomass.
However, the line was always a slow low-grade route with many level crossings and sharp curves through Warrington.
It runs well away from most housing, though there have been some new developments around Sankey Bridges.
Potential stations towards Liverpool are also poorly sited, and Warrington BQ would be a dead end, with no links to the WCML without reversal.
It used to serve all the local industries, but they have all closed or turned their back on the railway, bar Fiddlers Ferry.

There are 5 level crossing of which 2 appear to be public roads. The tight curves aren't an issue as any train using them would be slowing down or accelerating from BQ.
As a link between Liverpool and WCML it has to be better than Crewe providing a shuttle service between Lime Street, LJL, WIdnes and BQ.
As for fiddlers, there seems to be enough space for some extra sidings allowing deliveries at night and storage.
As part of Merseyrail it would work fine as a commuter line. A Liverpool HS2 spur could use the route without taking more land.
Still ain't going to happen though.

 

[8A Rail]

Might have to wait until Fiddlers Ferry power station closes though.
I don't think there is a closure date yet, as it has been upgraded to reduce its emissions and burn biomass.
However, the line was always a slow low-grade route with many level crossings and sharp curves through Warrington.
It runs well away from most housing, though there have been some new developments around Sankey Bridges.
Potential stations towards Liverpool are also poorly sited, and Warrington BQ would be a dead end, with no links to the WCML without reversal.
It used to serve all the local industries, but they have all closed or turned their back on the railway, bar Fiddlers Ferry.

FFPS is live until at least sometime in the 2020's although it was originally 2016 but with all the new upgrade's to the station to meet emissions then it has been given an extended life.

There are as I understand been plans to do away with Arpley Junction for quite some time being replaced by a direct connection from the Low Level line to/from Widnes to the Up and Down Arpley Branch lines, there fore eliminating reversal at Latchford Sidings. However, it seems to remain on the back burner.

Another member suggested as a better link to the WCML from Liverpool - why? With the electrification of the L&M line, no need for a link / shuttle as trains will operate that way as a diversionery route when the Weaver Junc to Speke Junction is unavailable.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It does sound a better route - serving the centre (near enough) of Widnes and Warrington as a route from Liverpool to London which woujld also speed up WCML as Warrington could be taken off the Scottish services. The (maybe eventual) half hourly Liverpool - London services could alternate via Widnes/Warrington and Runcorn.