New Logo for Northern Trains LTD

[py_megapixel]

Very dated if I'm honest.

I don't mind the Northern font, logo and colour scheme since Arriva. It's simple and clear. There's no comparison when you compare it with the old Northern with that god-awful, gaudy purple they had.

I have to disagree. The Northern Rail purple was simple and recognisable. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Abellio, but they do seem to do an excellent job of branding their franchises.

Granted, by the end of the franchise, it was starting to look a little dated, but that doesn't mean Arriva Rail North was any better. Their livery, aside from being plain and unimaginative, is the worst I've seen for showing up dirt and grime (which given how terrible ARN were at cleaning their rolling stock was a terrible thing). Like the rest of the franchise, it just looks poorly thought out and done on the cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very dated if I'm honest.

I don't mind the Northern font, logo and colour scheme since Arriva. It's simple and clear. There's no comparison when you compare it with the old Northern with that god-awful, gaudy purple they had.

The old livery was a bit rubbish (in particular the "sweep-up" which belonged on a 1980s bus, though at one point I mocked up a version without it and it looked quite good) and the interior quite dated, a bit like "round your Nan's". But I can't stop thinking about the N-in-circles as sad faces, which seems to have been a bit of a mistake.

I hated the new livery to start with but it's a grower. The interior is a bit stark, though. Reminds me a bit of SBB with the dark blue ends; shame they couldn't have done something cosier like TPE did.

However, the modified post-Arriva logo with the upper case text in a font not far from Comic Sans just looks like one of the managers' kids did it (Maybe they did?)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The old livery was a bit rubbish (in particular the "sweep-up" which belonged on a 1980s bus, though at one point I mocked up a version without it and it looked quite good) and the interior quite dated, a bit like "round your Nan's". But I can't stop thinking about the N-in-circles as sad faces, which seems to have been a bit of a mistake.

I hated the new livery to start with but it's a grower. The interior is a bit stark, though. Reminds me a bit of SBB with the dark blue ends; shame they couldn't have done something cosier like TPE did.

However, the modified post-Arriva logo with the upper case text in a font not far from Comic Sans just looks like one of the managers' kids did it (Maybe they did?)

Insulting to the managers kids if you ask me it’s the worst railway logo I’ve ever seen

 

[py_megapixel]

The old livery was a bit rubbish (in particular the "sweep-up" which belonged on a 1980s bus, though at one point I mocked up a version without it and it looked quite good) and the interior quite dated, a bit like "round your Nan's". But I can't stop thinking about the N-in-circles as sad faces, which seems to have been a bit of a mistake.

Honestly I think the old "Northern Spirit" branding was even worse... choose an ugly shade of turquoise, slap a wonky N on the side and call it a day. The maroon express version was a little classier, but still not great, and it didn't work anywhere near as well as any of the FirstGroup liveries subsequently seen on TP stock.
(By the way, those were Arriva brands too).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly I think the old "Northern Spirit" branding was even worse... choose an ugly shade of turquoise, slap a wonky N on the side and call it a day. The maroon express version was a little classier, but still not great, and it didn't work anywhere near as well as any of the FirstGroup liveries subsequently seen on TP stock

The turquoise livery was horrid, but I'm sorry I will have to disagree with you on the TPE scheme, I have it down as one of the classiest liveries (and interior designs) in UK railway history. (I do like the new TPE livery, though, it beats it but only slightly and in a different way)

What FirstGroup did to it with their lower-body vinyls was criminal.

 

[YorksLad12]

The TPE livery has grown on me, and looks much better on the 802s (which was probably the point). First must be one of the few TOC owners still doing colourful liveries. The only Northern livery I've ever liked was the one they used on the 333s until a year or so ago.

Coincidentally, when working on rail refranchising I was asked to look at branding and liveries. For no other reason than I was the comms person, I suspect - neither is really in my bailiwick. After looking around and talking to people who knew more about this sort of stuff than I, I came to the conclusion that short of paying out oodles of taxpayer money to Best Impressions (the bloke with the beard and shorts) the simplest thing was an all-white livery with contrasting colours for passenger doors. Perhaps some sort of running strip in the same contrast colour along the side of the vehicle with the franchise name on it, and the name of the current operating company underneath.

Which was such a crap idea I never wrote it up. Who'd be daft enough to do something ditchwater-dull like that?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Coincidentally, when working on rail refranchising I was asked to look at branding and liveries. For no other reason than I was the comms person, I suspect - neither is really in my bailiwick. After looking around and talking to people who knew more about this sort of stuff than I, I came to the conclusion that short of paying out oodles of taxpayer money to Best Impressions (the bloke with the beard and shorts) the simplest thing was an all-white livery with contrasting colours for passenger doors. Perhaps some sort of running strip in the same contrast colour along the side of the vehicle with the franchise name on it, and the name of the current operating company underneath.

Which was such a crap idea I never wrote it up. Who'd be daft enough to do something ditchwater-dull like that?

A slightly less dull approach; pick two colours (one light and one dark) that aren't too horible and don't clash with each other. Paint short-distance commuter stock in one of the two colours, with doors in the other colour. For medium-distance or slower long-distance regional services, use the dark colour for the bodywork with the doors and a band around the windows being in the lighter colour. For regional express / intercity / premium services, paint the doors and the window band in the dark colour with the light colour used on the rest (basically the inverse of the middle-distance livery). This is similar to what SWT/EMT did, but without the squiggles that EMT/SWT had at the ends (which worked in some cases but not others). Choose light and dark grey/silver as your two colours and you aren't far off the Chiltern silver set livery, which is pretty good if you ask me.

 

[mspljd1990]

I have to disagree. The Northern Rail purple was simple and recognisable. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Abellio, but they do seem to do an excellent job of branding their franchises.

Granted, by the end of the franchise, it was starting to look a little dated, but that doesn't mean Arriva Rail North was any better. Their livery, aside from being plain and unimaginative, is the worst I've seen for showing up dirt and grime (which given how terrible ARN were at cleaning their rolling stock was a terrible thing). Like the rest of the franchise, it just looks poorly thought out and done on the cheap.

I agree - I liked the purple on Northern trains. It wasn't too overbearing, it just blended in nicely with the blue.

I don't mind the current Northern livery but there seems to be a recent trend of TOCs just painting their trains mostly white with occasional use of another colour on their doors and near the front, like TFW, Greater Anglia, Thameslink and Southeastern have all been doing, and I wish there was more variety in modern liveries. That said, maybe this is a step towards the return of BR.

 

[YorksLad12]

A slightly less dull approach; pick two colours (one light and one dark) that aren't too horible and don't clash with each other. Paint short-distance commuter stock in one of the two colours, with doors in the other colour. For medium-distance or slower long-distance regional services, use the dark colour for the bodywork with the doors and a band around the windows being in the lighter colour. For regional express / intercity / premium services, paint the doors and the window band in the dark colour with the light colour used on the rest (basically the inverse of the middle-distance livery). This is similar to what SWT/EMT did, but without the squiggles that EMT/SWT had at the ends (which worked in some cases but not others). Choose light and dark grey/silver as your two colours and you aren't far off the Chiltern silver set livery, which is pretty good if you ask me.

That option I discounted because you can't guarantee the right stock on the right services every day. And if stock moved from one type of service to another you'd need to repaint/revinyl. You could do it on captive sets; the electrics (green doors, why not) and the north-east units. But in a franchise where a 150 (or a 142 or a 153 back in the day) can be used on Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham services instead of a 158... probably not.

 

[Mollman]

Honestly I think the old "Northern Spirit" branding was even worse... choose an ugly shade of turquoise, slap a wonky N on the side and call it a day. The maroon express version was a little classier, but still not great, and it didn't work anywhere near as well as any of the FirstGroup liveries subsequently seen on TP stock.
(By the way, those were Arriva brands too).

Actually I think you'll find that the Northern Spirit brand was MTR, when Arriva bought them out and it became Arriva Trains Northern they started to paint mainly pacers in the Arriva corporate livery that was used widely by Arriva Trains Wales. Ironically I think the new version of the Arriva corporate livery that some of the ATW units got repainted into prior to the franchise ending was much nice and I wouldn't of minded it as the Northern livery. I thought the Northern Electrics livery was very nice too and way better than the half-finished product we have today (even a stripe or colouring the inner car ends would improve it)

 

[JaJaWa]

Actually I think you'll find that the Northern Spirit brand was MTR, when Arriva bought them out and it became Arriva Trains Northern they started to paint mainly pacers in the Arriva corporate livery that was used widely by Arriva Trains Wales. Ironically I think the new version of the Arriva corporate livery that some of the ATW units got repainted into prior to the franchise ending was much nice and I wouldn't of minded it as the Northern livery. I thought the Northern Electrics livery was very nice too and way better than the half-finished product we have today (even a stripe or colouring the inner car ends would improve it)

MTL (Merseyside Transport Limited) not MTR (Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway).

 

[Mollman]

MTL (Merseyside Transport Limited) not MTR (Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway).

Good spot, thanks

 

[physics34]

I would still like to see a generic font, logo type over the whole railway network.

 

[YorksLad12]

I would still like to see a generic font, logo type over the whole railway network.

I was going to write "There is!" - but you're right, there isn't. Even where there should be consistency there isn't. The Rail Alphabet font is being replaced by BR Brunel I believe, but some TOCs use very odd typefaces at stations they manage, Wakefield Westgate being a good/bad example. From memory, Northern's stations follow Network Rail guidance. Consistency of signage should be as important to rail as it is on roads.

(Edited because I originally wrote Transport instead of Rail Alphabet. Spot-the-difference fonts, but still.)

 

[Rhydgaled]

That option I discounted because you can't guarantee the right stock on the right services every day. And if stock moved from one type of service to another you'd need to repaint/revinyl. You could do it on captive sets; the electrics (green doors, why not) and the north-east units. But in a franchise where a 150 (or a 142 or a 153 back in the day) can be used on Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham services instead of a 158... probably not.

Admittedly you would have to fix the fleet composition so that regional express type stock (158s) actually runs regional express type workings etc.

 

[superalbs]

What FirstGroup did to it with their lower-body vinyls was criminal.

I think those blue+gold First branded vinyls were what made that livery great!

 

[DeeGee]

The TPE livery has grown on me, and looks much better on the 802s (which was probably the point). First must be one of the few TOC owners still doing colourful liveries. The only Northern livery I've ever liked was the one they used on the 333s until a year or so ago.

Coincidentally, when working on rail refranchising I was asked to look at branding and liveries. For no other reason than I was the comms person, I suspect - neither is really in my bailiwick. After looking around and talking to people who knew more about this sort of stuff than I, I came to the conclusion that short of paying out oodles of taxpayer money to Best Impressions (the bloke with the beard and shorts) the simplest thing was an all-white livery with contrasting colours for passenger doors. Perhaps some sort of running strip in the same contrast colour along the side of the vehicle with the franchise name on it, and the name of the current operating company underneath.

Which was such a crap idea I never wrote it up. Who'd be daft enough to do something ditchwater-dull like that?

As a layman who just takes trains occasionally, all-white liveries (with or without coloured detailing) are not helpful while there are TOC-only tickets, and only a short dwell time to ascertain if it's the correct train or not.

 

[GoneSouth]

As a layman who just takes trains occasionally, all-white liveries (with or without coloured detailing) are not helpful while there are TOC-only tickets, and only a short dwell time to ascertain if it's the correct train or not.

Well let’s hope TOC only tickets will be a thing of the past very soon. You are right though, I remember looking across the likes of Birmingham NS or Leeds at a collection of various different types of train, all in that drab BR blue/gray livery (controversial opinion I know) with no idea what train was likely to be going where I wanted to. That predated on platform TV screen information which didn’t help. Now it’s easy to spot the Avanti or the TPE or the LNEN or, until the change in franchise, the purple abomination that is a Northern 142

 

[ScottGallagher]

When will the new logo be released to the public. I'm still half optimistic that's it's not the total MS word lash up that has been seen so far.

 

[py_megapixel]

When will the new logo be released to the public. I'm still half optimistic that's it's not the total MS word lash up that has been seen so far.

It's been gradually seeping its way into documents released publicly, but not nessecarily intended to be consumed by the public, if you see what I mean. For example, Appendix G of these meeting minutes: https://democracy.greatermanchester...N 20200918 Local Rail Service Performance.pdf

 

[skyhigh]

It was clear when it was released to staff that it was an internal only logo. As far as I'm aware it's still internal only, and I haven't heard of any plans for that to change - it's popped up publicly in a couple of places, but I don't think that's been intentional. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up a bit like the GTR logo, just for the company rather than as a customer facing logo.

 

[HarryL]

What's the point of a customer logo and an internal logo, why not use the same for both? I would understand if the OLR got itself a logo and used that internally for Northern and LNER combined, but not two logos for the one company.

 

[mde]

It's been gradually seeping its way into documents released publicly, but not nessecarily intended to be consumed by the public, if you see what I mean. For example, Appendix G of these meeting minutes: https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s9425/05 GMTC MRN 20200918 Local Rail Service Performance.pdf

It's also made its way onto letterhead - as seen here in a tweet from Mark Jenkinson MP. I'm sure it'll find its way out in more creative forms in due course…

Delighted that @northernassist have been able to make necessary changes to allow the main commuter service at 07:42 from Workington to Carlisle to be retained, following the proposal to suspend it from Monday Very grateful for positive dialogue with me and colleagues around this
https://twitter.com/markjenkinsonmp/status/1303340103604088838/photo/1

Alt: Image shows a letter from Northern's Stakeholder manager to Mark Jenkinson MP. The letterhead consists of a cyan blue pattern curving down from the top of the page which is then intersected by a light/dark gradient blue "swoosh" from the left. On the right hand side is a logo which is a dark blue circle with a lowercase 'n' in the middle and next to this is the word "Northern" in all caps. At the bottom of the page, below the letter, is the website address northernrailway.co.uk (in large print) followed by the registered office and company information.

 

[Dr Hoo]

What's the point of a customer logo and an internal logo, why not use the same for both? I would understand if the OLR got itself a logo and used that internally for Northern and LNER combined, but not two logos for the one company.

There IS a logo for the OLR (or, more strictly, DfT OLR Holdings Limited).


(Image shows a logo with a dark green non-serif capital D, capital O, stylised capital H (with a grey track background) and a capital L.)

 

[Mat17]

I remember looking across the likes of Birmingham NS or Leeds at a collection of various different types of train, all in that drab BR blue/gray livery (controversial opinion I know)

I realise I'm probably in a minority, but I really liked the whole Blue/Grey corporate BR image. I still think it's a very smart livery, up there with Intercity Swallow livery.

 

[High Dyke]

OK the "new" logo is just incredibly lazy and actually looks worse than the current one. Go take a look https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1270431599247724544?s=20

And there was me thinking it was going to be caricatures of jack-booted 'goon' staff, brandishing penalty fares notices. Oh well, perhaps next time?

 

[YorksLad12]

I realise I'm probably in a minority, but I really liked the whole Blue/Grey corporate BR image. I still think it's a very smart livery, up there with Intercity Swallow livery.

I'm with you on the InterCity livery.

On Northern; the old Rail North logotype is going spare. We're just missing an 'E'...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Actually I think you'll find that the Northern Spirit brand was MTR, when Arriva bought them out and it became Arriva Trains Northern they started to paint mainly pacers in the Arriva corporate livery that was used widely by Arriva Trains Wales. Ironically I think the new version of the Arriva corporate livery that some of the ATW units got repainted into prior to the franchise ending was much nice and I wouldn't of minded it as the Northern livery. I thought the Northern Electrics livery was very nice too and way better than the half-finished product we have today (even a stripe or colouring the inner car ends would improve it)

It was also quite obviously green, not turquoise as several upthread have it. Once Arriva took over and sparingly applied their corporate scheme of the time, some units were turquoise.

 

[HarryL]

The new logo has now popped up on the website, fully replacing the previous one and on social media posts, so it can be assumed they've made the full switch to it customer side. I assume given they've done this, we'll also see it on trains soon.

 

[Martin222002]

Also seems that the Northern website has gained newspaper clutter style advertising!