Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[The_Train]

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Has it been out in service yet though?

 

[Spirit555]

Not as yet. Only delivered to Edge Hill a few days ago I believe.

Seen at Edge Hill at 1815 tonight hooked up to 08790.

Mark

 

[Roger B]

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When it's in service!

 

[Chorley Cake]

If it’s like the other more recent arrivals it will be out accumulating mileage within the next ten days or so, and in service by the last week of the month.

 

[alm37]

If it’s like the other more recent arrivals it will be out accumulating mileage within the next ten days or so, and in service by the last week of the month.

Out on its first day of mileage accumulation to Carnforth this morning.

 

[superkev]

After what seems like years under construction I believe the new Newton Heath 4 road maintenance shed is now in use at last. I'm not sure I'd it replaces or supplements the existing facility. K

 

[gka472l]

195021 was on test this morning at Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[175001]

After what seems like years under construction I believe the new Newton Heath 4 road maintenance shed is now in use at last. I'm not sure I'd it replaces or supplements the existing facility. K

It will be mainly for the 195s but can be used for the legacy fleet to take pressure off the main shed

 

[Roger B]

Does anyone have an update on 195021? I've been checking on RTT (not every day admittedly), and it hasn't been allocated yet. Is FFR still continuing? Have any issues been identified, any ideas when it might enter service? It would be great to know the latest position if anyone's in the know, please - many thanks.

 

[Chorley Cake]

Does anyone have an update on 195021? I've been checking on RTT (not every day admittedly), and it hasn't been allocated yet. Is FFR still continuing? Have any issues been identified, any ideas when it might enter service? It would be great to know the latest position if anyone's in the know, please - many thanks.

I think it is at Allerton depot right now. I’ve been following what I think are the daily mileage accumulation runs and this is where it finished up yesterday afternoon. There appears to be nothing allocated today.

As the number has been obfuscated all of this could be utter wibble of course, so don’t see it as 100% guaranteed.

 

[172007]

With issues surrounding the Class 196 introduction, does anyone have a list of C195 issues past and more importantly presentm Interested to see how being very simular the class's are how CAF have managed not to learn any lessons.

 

[Nymanic]

With issues surrounding the Class 196 introduction, does anyone have a list of C195 issues past and more importantly presentm Interested to see how being very simular the class's are how CAF have managed not to learn any lessons.

I'd like to think ride quality would be high on the list, although this is more of an issue for the 197s (which will run longer distances).

Pretty sure the bogies are identical, though, so I expect to be disappointed. The ride is woeful, such that I'm hoping it doesn't shorten the units' life expectancy.

 

[Domh245]

Two things to bear in mind: Firstly any major design issues will have been too late to be resolved based on the 195s - the first 195s were entering service in mid 2019, around the same time as production would have been beginning on the 196s, and the design finalised (barring easy-change things like interior fittings)

Secondly, any issues that are a consequence of being built(/designed) to a cost won't be resolved easily, especially not post-pandemic, and that's before any consideration about how much it is impacted by point 1.

 

[Efini92]

With issues surrounding the Class 196 introduction, does anyone have a list of C195 issues past and more importantly presentm Interested to see how being very simular the class's are how CAF have managed not to learn any lessons.

Hot axle box sensors are faulty.
Windows and glass cracks due to vibrations.
ASDO doesn’t always work as it should.
Ride Quality is awful.
Engine oil is also used to cool the gearbox so if the engine is out the gearbox has to be isolated.
Units can’t coast at a constant speed, as soon as you shut off power the gearbox will retard, meaning power constantly has to be applied.
CCTV cameras have all taken in water rendering them useless.
AWS bell is 97 decibels.
Cab doors come open whilst the train is moving. This issue stems from when they were new the only lock on the door was in the mid point making it impossible to open from ballast level.
The PASS COM covers are so flimsy passengers set them off by accident. If the mushroom is reset anti clockwise the mushroom comes off in your hand.
There’s too many faults with the TCMS to
List.
The windscreen wipers don’t work properly (though there is a mod for that)
PIS has about 30% chance of working as it should.

They’re just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[skyhigh]

Hot axle box sensors are faulty.
Windows and glass cracks due to vibrations.
ASDO doesn’t always work as it should.
Ride Quality is awful.
Engine oil is also used to cool the gearbox so if the engine is out the gearbox has to be isolated.
Units can’t coast at a constant speed, as soon as you shut off power the gearbox will retard, meaning power constantly has to be applied.
CCTV cameras have all taken in water rendering them useless.
AWS bell is 97 decibels.
Cab doors come open whilst the train is moving. This issue stems from when they were new the only lock on the door was in the mid point making it impossible to open from ballast level.
The PASS COM covers are so flimsy passengers set them off by accident. If the mushroom is reset anti clockwise the mushroom comes off in your hand.
There’s too many faults with the TCMS to
List.
The windscreen wipers don’t work properly (though there is a mod for that)
PIS has about 30% chance of working as it should.

They’re just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Other than that they're fine though, right?

 

[bengley]

Hot axle box sensors are faulty.
Windows and glass cracks due to vibrations.
ASDO doesn’t always work as it should.
Ride Quality is awful.
Engine oil is also used to cool the gearbox so if the engine is out the gearbox has to be isolated.
Units can’t coast at a constant speed, as soon as you shut off power the gearbox will retard, meaning power constantly has to be applied.
CCTV cameras have all taken in water rendering them useless.
AWS bell is 97 decibels.
Cab doors come open whilst the train is moving. This issue stems from when they were new the only lock on the door was in the mid point making it impossible to open from ballast level.
The PASS COM covers are so flimsy passengers set them off by accident. If the mushroom is reset anti clockwise the mushroom comes off in your hand.
There’s too many faults with the TCMS to
List.
The windscreen wipers don’t work properly (though there is a mod for that)
PIS has about 30% chance of working as it should.

They’re just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Are the cab doors sealed properly when they are shut, though?

 

[Efini92]

Are the cab doors sealed properly when they are shut, though?

No, some you can actually stick your fingers through the gaps.
Because they’ve had to put an extra bar and locking mechanism on the bottom of the door the hinge bolts have been torqued to death and twisted the door.

Other than that they're fine though, right?

Ha ha well they were until the yaw dampers started falling off.

 

[bengley]

No, some you can actually stick your fingers through the gaps.
Because they’ve had to put an extra bar and locking mechanism on the bottom of the door the hinge bolts have been torqued to death and twisted the door.

Exactly the same as their 125mph pointy nosed brothers then.

The wind noise is dreadful.

 

[skyhigh]

Because they’ve had to put an extra bar and locking mechanism on the bottom of the door the hinge bolts have been torqued to death and twisted the door.

That makes sense- I signed 195s in relatively late so I didn't experience the original issues (but I'm very aware of the current issues you list!).

 

[Efini92]

Exactly the same as their 125mph pointy nosed brothers then.

The wind noise is dreadful.

At least CAF are consistent then.

That makes sense- I signed 195s in relatively late so I didn't experience the original issues (but I'm very aware of the current issues you list!).

I don’t sign them anymore, have they sorted the AWS issue out yet?

 

[skyhigh]

I don’t sign them anymore, have they sorted the AWS issue out yet?

There's a trial ongoing- a few have been sorted but the rest need doing.

 

[newtownmgr]

Hot axle box sensors are faulty.
Windows and glass cracks due to vibrations.
ASDO doesn’t always work as it should.
Ride Quality is awful.
Engine oil is also used to cool the gearbox so if the engine is out the gearbox has to be isolated.
Units can’t coast at a constant speed, as soon as you shut off power the gearbox will retard, meaning power constantly has to be applied.
CCTV cameras have all taken in water rendering them useless.
AWS bell is 97 decibels.
Cab doors come open whilst the train is moving. This issue stems from when they were new the only lock on the door was in the mid point making it impossible to open from ballast level.
The PASS COM covers are so flimsy passengers set them off by accident. If the mushroom is reset anti clockwise the mushroom comes off in your hand.
There’s too many faults with the TCMS to
List.
The windscreen wipers don’t work properly (though there is a mod for that)
PIS has about 30% chance of working as it should.

They’re just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

As regards the units not coasting. It’s not a fault. It’s due to it being a mechanical ZF gearbox. We have the same with our 172’s. Just keeping them in notch 1 or 2 will maintain speed. Obviously with the CAF units (can only speak for the 196’s) they only have one power notch after that it’s variable power so will be a case of judging how much is needed to maintain speed.

 

[Efini92]

As regards the units not coasting. It’s not a fault. It’s due to it being a mechanical ZF gearbox. We have the same with our 172’s. Just keeping them in notch 1 or 2 will maintain speed. Obviously with the CAF units (can only speak for the 196’s) they only have one power notch after that it’s variable power so will be a case of judging how much is needed to maintain speed.

Sorry i didn’t mean it was a fault, just poor design.
Do the 172’s not have a fluid coupling?

 

[newtownmgr]

Sorry i didn’t mean it was a fault, just poor design.
Do the 172’s not have a fluid coupling?

No ZF mechanical box. Same as the 195/196

 

[superkev]

No ZF mechanical box. Same as the 195/196

ZF mechanical box still has a hydraulic coupling in lei of a clutch plus gears for 6 speeds.
The bus version has a retarder feature. Not sure if the rail version has one or how the current version works.
K

 

[Llama]

It'd be nice to know. Any technical questions on these units might as well get met with a "don't you worry about that, sunshine".
At least that would be a response.

 

[Efini92]

It'd be nice to know. Any technical questions on these units might as well get met with a "don't you worry about that, sunshine".
At least that would be a response.

It didn’t help that the people in charge of commissioning/training on them were only interested in paying 45% tax and having a jolly for 18 months.

 

[302PS]

It didn’t help that the people in charge of commissioning/training on them were only interested in paying 45% tax and having a jolly for 18 months.

Ohhh meow

 

[172007]

ZF mechanical box still has a hydraulic coupling in lei of a clutch plus gears for 6 speeds.
The bus version has a retarder feature. Not sure if the rail version has one or how the current version works.
K

As far as I know on a 172 it's fluid until 15mph then all other gears are clutch. They certainly don't coast but slowly slow down. When coming to a station and it changes down to the lowest gear at just under 20mph you sometime have to dab extra brake as you have lost engine braking. Some are better than others in the respect.

 

[37057]

As far as I know on a 172 it's fluid until 15mph then all other gears are clutch. They certainly don't coast but slowly slow down. When coming to a station and it changes down to the lowest gear at just under 20mph you sometime have to dab extra brake as you have lost engine braking. Some are better than others in the respect.

ZFs as fitted to buses (for years now) have a lock up clutch which by-passes the fluid coupling function. I think this transmission is essentially what's in (or similar) 172s etc > ZF in a bus

Fluid couplings transmit power from engine to transmission (obviously) but also allows it the other way around too and BR DMMUs had a free wheel to prevent that.

Advantage of the free wheel - Good for coasting... Disadvantage - Engine idling (fuelling).

Advantage of lock-up clutch - Saves fuel as engine becomes driven rather than driver... Disadvantage - Coasting capability reduced.

Voith turbo transmissions 'free wheel' as the converter / couplings drain.