• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

Status
Not open for further replies.

northwichcat

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2023
Messages
1,202
Location
Northwich
Both Chester routes have come off the list of routes with no services (for 31 Dec) on the Northern website, so it's a bit unclear what's happening with them.

Looks like Buxton, Crewe and Wilmslow-Liverpool routes will have a 2 hourly service.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MadCommuter

Member
Joined
4 Oct 2010
Messages
630
Soon we will be at the point where TOCs will be putting out a message saying "It's OK to travel today."
 

northwichcat

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2023
Messages
1,202
Location
Northwich
Soon we will be at the point where TOCs will be putting out a message saying "It's OK to travel today."

I remember at one point when Ryanair were advertising low fares in one direction only, the joke was they'll get you there but you'll have to stay there. That seems to be coming true for the railways!
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,991
Location
East Anglia
Soon we will be at the point where TOCs will be putting out a message saying "It's OK to travel today."

Travel with Greater Anglia. It’s always “OK to travel with us” and cancellations due to shortage of traincrew are a very rare occurrence indeed.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
If only it was that simple. I do agree with your sentiment but unfortunately mismanagement over the past 10 years (some will say more) and the (deliberate) incompetence of the DFT have brought us to where we are today.

The travelling public are fed up. The staff are fed up. Frontline managers are fed up. The only ones who aren't are those above earning 6 figure salaries (earning a fat bonus), the civil servants in the DFT (earning a fat bonus) and those in Government (earning a fat bonus and an annual, generally above inflation pay rise)....
Nobody has any skin in the game. If these phony businesses could collapse and cost both groups their jobs, both the staff and managers would have an incentive to make sure it actually worked.

As is, everyone comes back to work the next day, as if nothing happened.

Various posters have mentioned negotiation over Sunday working. There is in fact already provision for mandatory restructuring where a business isn't viable. Unless DfT decides we don't need trains on Sundays, these TOCs are not viable businesses as no franchise holder could ever deliver the performance targets without it.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,614
The current issue of Rail magazine has an interesting article highlighting that there used to be a range of rail services on Christmas Day itself, in some parts of the country up to the end of the 1970s, so the notion that working around these periods is a recent innovation does not stand up to scrutiny.
 

gledhill56

Member
Joined
12 Nov 2007
Messages
90
What is a C-ASDO beacon, and why would the absence of one prevent TPE from making additional stops at Ashton at times of disruption?
Anything longer than a single 185 would be too long for the platform and would require selective door opening.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,672
Location
Wales
Soon we will be at the point where TOCs will be putting out a message saying "It's OK to travel today."
Won't be seeing that for some time from Avanti.

Nobody has any skin in the game. If these phony businesses could collapse and cost both groups their jobs, both the staff and managers would have an incentive to make sure it actually worked.
It's not the staff or the middle managers who are the issue, it's central government.
 

CaptainHaddock

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,214
Won't be seeing that for some time from Avanti.


It's not the staff or the middle managers who are the issue, it's central government.
It's the government's fault that TOCs don't roster enough staff to run their advertised services?
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,775
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
It's the government's fault that TOCs don't roster enough staff to run their advertised services?
No....it's the government's fault that insufficient funding is released to enable the TOCs to recruit enough staff to avoid the necessity for overtime and rest day working to cover the advertised timetable. The TOCs can't roster enough staff if enough staff aren't there in the first place....and their rosters, terms and conditions make it more attractive for a substantial number of drivers - especially in the Sheffield area - to bale-out and take jobs with FOCs.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,395
Location
Bolton
It's the government's fault that TOCs don't roster enough staff to run their advertised services?
Yes? Obviously. Who else is responsible for running Northern? Nobody but the Secretary of State for Transport and, indeed, the Prime Minister.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,432
The current issue of Rail magazine has an interesting article highlighting that there used to be a range of rail services on Christmas Day itself, in some parts of the country up to the end of the 1970s, so the notion that working around these periods is a recent innovation does not stand up to scrutiny.
I suspect any rail services on Christmas Day at the end of the 1970s must have been in Scotland, where Christmas was subsidiary to Hogmanay.

Shortly after I joined the railway (so about 1977-79) the London Midland ran a very limited Boxing Day service (literally Euston-Brum-Crewe-Liverpool/Manchester) which was the first Boxing Day service for some years. And the innovation was not maintained.

EDIT: A bit of research suggests Christmas Day services started to be cut back in the 1950s, with a major cut back in 1961 and (outside Scotland) no services from c.1965. Glasgow area services lasted till 1979. Boxing Day tended to be a Sunday service but were certainly very limited (as above) and seem to have ceased by 1981. In recent times there have been some very limited Boxing Day services to airports and Bicester Village.
 
Last edited:

setdown

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
257
The whole operation is rotten. Why would management want to bother sorting this out at Northern? Everyone will still get paid next month. The government aren’t ever going to shut down Northern Rail, so where’s the motivation to do better.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,584
Location
London
It does in terms of being organised enough to know several weeks in advance how many staff you will have and publicising any consequential service changes then, not 48 hours beforehand.

Normally 7 days to give up your Sundays. And then a few days to review and build the roster and then actually make the contingency plans.

Yes we could presume NYE would have similar take up to Xmas Eve but it would be a presumption.

The whole operation is rotten. Why would management want to bother sorting this out at Northern? Everyone will still get paid next month. The government aren’t ever going to shut down Northern Rail, so where’s the motivation to do better.

The "whole operation" hinges on how Sunday arrangements for crew are in place at Northern. A more robust structure (e.g. 7 day working week) would significantly reduce this. But the TOCs (really the DfT now) don't want this due to the cost implications. This has been explained time and time again. So we lurch into a Sunday crisis every now and again at certain operators.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,654
The whole operation is rotten. Why would management want to bother sorting this out at Northern? Everyone will still get paid next month. The government aren’t ever going to shut down Northern Rail, so where’s the motivation to do better.
Maybe the motivation to do better would lie with putting Northern into the private sector and using profit as an incentive......
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,775
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
Maybe the motivation to do better would lie with putting Northern into the private sector and using profit as an incentive......
Already been tried and it didn't work. Which private company would want to take on such huge, rambling, unprofitable franchise in the current circumstances?
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,584
Location
London
Already been tried and it didn't work. Which private company would want to take on such huge, rambling, unprofitable franchise in the current circumstances?

I think they were being sarcastic!
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,672
Location
Wales
It's the government's fault that TOCs don't roster enough staff to run their advertised services?
During franchise tendering the DfT have generally disincentivised bringing Sundays in the working week. Franchise lengths were too short for the TOC to recoup the investment in training new staff. In case you haven't noticed the government have also spent the last two years trying their utmost to destroy any goodwill on the part of the staff.
 

david1212

Established Member
Joined
9 Apr 2020
Messages
1,481
Location
Midlands
No volunteers for Sunday overtime means no trains running. Doesn't get much simpler than that

Drivers can make themselves available or not available right up until a few days before the Sunday roster is compiled as per rostering agreements. There is no way of doing it any sooner.

And given the current state of industrial relations it would hardly be surprising if crew exercised this right even if they’d known weeks in advance that they weren’t going to be available for work.

Even if over a year you volunteer for say around 1 in 3 Sundays what incentive especially in the current industrial relations climate is there to choose Christmas Eve or New Years Eve knowing overall there will be too few staff to run the published timetable so disgruntled passengers and many of the trains that do run will be rammed and hence likely to loose time against the timetable?

On top of this is likely disruption from the weather.
 

scrapy

Established Member
Joined
15 Dec 2008
Messages
2,092
Even if over a year you volunteer for say around 1 in 3 Sundays what incentive especially in the current industrial relations climate is there to choose Christmas Eve or New Years Eve knowing overall there will be too few staff to run the published timetable so disgruntled passengers and many of the trains that do run will be rammed and hence likely to loose time against the timetable?

On top of this is likely disruption from the weather.
Theres also the fact that several staff have been unable to get back to there home depot by taxis not turning up as Northern refuse to pay extra on NYE so drivers refuse the jobs.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,608
Theres also the fact that several staff have been unable to get back to there home depot by taxis not turning up as Northern refuse to pay extra on NYE so drivers refuse the jobs.
That's a valid point. I've been stitched up enough times over the years by taxi companies with rail company contracts failing to provide a car on time despite advance booking, as well as providing rubbish drivers and cars to the point that I will actively decline work that involves taxis unless I'm contractually obliged to undertake it.
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,953
Location
Sunny South Lancs
The current issue of Rail magazine has an interesting article highlighting that there used to be a range of rail services on Christmas Day itself, in some parts of the country up to the end of the 1970s, so the notion that working around these periods is a recent innovation does not stand up to scrutiny.
Depends on your definition of recent. The end of the 1970s is nearly 45 years ago so just about the length of many a working career ie few people working now would have any memory of such working.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,395
Location
Bolton
Theres also the fact that several staff have been unable to get back to there home depot by taxis not turning up as Northern refuse to pay extra on NYE so drivers refuse the jobs.
No surprise there. It's similar to the attitude towards buses.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,746
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
No....it's the government's fault that insufficient funding is released to enable the TOCs to recruit enough staff to avoid the necessity for overtime and rest day working to cover the advertised timetable. The TOCs can't roster enough staff if enough staff aren't there in the first place....and their rosters, terms and conditions make it more attractive for a substantial number of drivers - especially in the Sheffield area - to bale-out and take jobs with FOCs.
Or perhaps its the fault of an industry struggling to come to terms that this is no longer the 1970s, and that customer demand has changed as has the economic climate? We've had successive governments to blame yet all the problems with the railway persist. Maybe the fault doesn't just lie in Westminster?
 

Jamesrob637

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2016
Messages
5,245
The first Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham has run, as has the first Chester to Piccadilly via Altrincham.

Already an improvement on a week ago.
 

trainophile

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2010
Messages
6,216
Location
Wherever I lay my hat
Just had a look on Northern Journey Check. Currently showing 264 cancellations, including some tomorrow. Every one of them (at a random check) is due to "a short notice change to the timetable". <D<D<D
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
It's the government's fault that TOCs don't roster enough staff to run their advertised services?
It is the TOCs who raised pay since 1995, such that Sunday working is no longer appealing, but didn't reform the contracts so that staff actually have to work on Sundays. The staff are rostered, but can simply decline the duty. It is fair to blame government for wasting 18 months in an industrial dispute, without forcing a resolution to this issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top