Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

[sportzbar]

There's always that Balance between giving overtime and sharing the extra money with existing employees and adding extra staff to cover Sundays. The rule generally wherever I've worked is that overtime should be for exceptional circumstances and if it becomes regular then employ more people

If only it was that simple. I do agree with your sentiment but unfortunately mismanagement over the past 10 years (some will say more) and the (deliberate) incompetence of the DFT have brought us to where we are today.

The travelling public are fed up. The staff are fed up. Frontline managers are fed up. The only ones who aren't are those above earning 6 figure salaries (earning a fat bonus), the civil servants in the DFT (earning a fat bonus) and those in Government (earning a fat bonus and an annual, generally above inflation pay rise)....

 

[Horizon22]

2.25x normal pay. Drivers were almost on hourly what guards at Northern were belatedly offered for a full shift.

Yep that will do it!

They could try future mitigation attempts by employing sufficient staff so they are not dependent on voluntary overtime. I appreciate employing enough staff is a novel thing in the UK, it would be like expecting to shop at my local Tesco supermarket without them frequently having run out of at least one thing I want no matter what time I go.

A little off-topic but that’s not really a staffing matter and more an impact of “just-in-time” practices and supply issues at supermarkets.

So the company and the DFT are happy to pay the overtime as it actually costs them less that way. It works when every is ticking along nicely, but when the goodwill is gone......

Which is the crux of the problem. This issue has never gone away and is present 52 days of the year. It’s just that the vast majority of the time, demand (people willing to work) & supply (diagrams or trains running) are roughly equal. Companies like Northern run their Sunday service on a knife-edge.

 

[The exile]

A little off-topic but that’s not really a staffing matter and more an impact of “just-in-time” practices and supply issues at supermarkets.

Also a result of running a business for short term shareholder gain and to comply with what someone in a back office miles away says they know best.

 

[D6130]

I think one of the big customer-facing problems with Northern is that - unlike their operating department - their commercial department don't seem to be able to differentiate between their different areas. As a result of the 'Do not travel' warning for Christmas Eve, I would have imagined that many potential passengers in Area East would have been deterred from travelling yesterday despite the fact that approximately 90% (*) of services in that are ran normally.

* - a rough estimate based on the number of trains stopping at Hebden Bridge. I haven't had time to analyse the figures in detail.

 

[northwichcat]

A little off-topic but that’s not really a staffing matter and more an impact of “just-in-time” practices and supply issues at supermarkets.

Depends. Sometimes an issue with "just in time" in supermarkets isn't they have no stock, it's they have limited stock and no choice. For example, you can buy fresh vegetables to go with your roast, but you don't get much choice. It's a bit like some train lines on an ordinary day - there's a train and if you don't like an all stops service with poor quality seating then there's no alternative, even if you're willing to pay more for an express with tables.

I think one of the big customer-facing problems with Northern is that - unlike their operating department - their commercial department don't seem to be able to differentiate between their different areas. As a result of the 'Do not travel' warning for Christmas Eve, I would have imagined that many potential passengers in Area East would have been deterred from travelling yesterday despite the fact that approximately 90% (*) of services in that are ran normally.

* - a rough estimate based on the number of trains stopping at Hebden Bridge. I haven't had time to analyse the figures in detail.

It's difficult when some services change from west side crews to east side part way through. For instance, Chester-Leeds was listed as a disrupted route, but it meant the Chester-Earlestown-Victoria bit didn't run. That would have been the most justifiable decision -there was an alternative service between Chester-Earlestown-Piccadilly and between Earlestown-Victoria. It wasn't so easy for them to justify the suspension of the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service, given most of the passengers don't have alternatives - it's not normally carrying any noticeable numbers making Chester-Manchester or Altrincham-Manchester journeys. The latest ORR data confirms most of the journeys are made to and from Knutsford, whether it's Knutsford-Manchester, Greenbank-Knutsford or Hale-Knutsford.

 

[david1212]

There's always that Balance between giving overtime and sharing the extra money with existing employees and adding extra staff to cover Sundays. The rule generally wherever I've worked is that overtime should be for exceptional circumstances and if it becomes regular then employ more people

IMO likewise. Employ sufficient staff to cover the full published timetable including holiday, the average sickness rate, routine training and reassessment. Restrict overtime to one-off training e.g. new trains and equipment, new service route patterns, a sickness epidemic, extended or changed routes due to engineering, additional services for sports fixtures and other events and similar requirements.

If only it was that simple. I do agree with your sentiment but unfortunately mismanagement over the past 10 years (some will say more) and the (deliberate) incompetence of the DFT have brought us to where we are today.

The travelling public are fed up. The staff are fed up. Frontline managers are fed up. The only ones who aren't are those above earning 6 figure salaries (earning a fat bonus), the civil servants in the DFT (earning a fat bonus) and those in Government (earning a fat bonus and an annual, generally above inflation pay rise)....

Without a good employer-employee relationship right through the chain and adequate resources no organisation is going to provide the expected service.

 

[sportzbar]

Without a good employer-employee relationship right through the chain and adequate resources no organisation is going to provide the expected service.

Perfectly put. But this is the reality that the DFT (despite their denials) fail to grasp. They just stick their fingers in their ears and carry on, blaming everyone actually doing the job rather than looking at their own performance. It almost as if the entire department are still waiting for three ghosts to visit them the night before Christmas...

 

[northwichcat]

Northern now advising no service on the below routes on 31 Dec

• Morecambe/Heysham – Lancaster
• Preston – Colne
• Manchester Victoria – Chester
• Manchester Victoria – Stalybridge
• Manchester Piccadilly – Chester (Via Altrincham)
• Clitheroe – Bolton

That suggests Blackpool South-Preston and Crewe-Piccadilly are likely to see some level of service (unlike on 24 Dec). Wigan-Victoria is closed for engineering works, so is already scheduled to have replacement buses. They haven't yet said they won't be providing any replacement buses on the affected routes and journey planners are still showing full services on those routes. However, it does look like they've withdrawn all Northern Advance fares for Sunday.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Northern now advising no service on the below routes on 31 Dec

That suggests Blackpool South-Preston and Crewe-Piccadilly are likely to see some level of service (unlike on 24 Dec). Wigan-Victoria is closed for engineering works, so is already scheduled to have replacement buses. They haven't yet said they won't be providing any replacement buses on the affected routes.

What a surprise that New Year's Eve should be on a Sunday this year! Well done to Northern's train planners and diagrammers for realising this and making contingency plans a whole two days in advance

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern now advising no service on the below routes on 31 Dec



That suggests Blackpool South-Preston and Crewe-Piccadilly are likely to see some level of service (unlike on 24 Dec). Wigan-Victoria is closed for engineering works, so is already scheduled to have replacement buses. They haven't yet said they won't be providing any replacement buses on the affected routes and journey planners are still showing full services on those routes. However, it does look like they've withdrawn all Northern Advance fares for Sunday.

Why those routes? Is there a specific shortage of crew that sign them and only them? They seem otherwise a bad choice over reducing frequency on more frequent routes operated from the same depots.

Blackpool South I get as it's mostly duplicated by service buses or you can go by tram to some of it. Morecambe similarly has a frequent bus service.

 

[robbeech]

Stagecoach Rail Replacement aren't magicing up stand-by buses for LNER on Christmas Eve from thin air, of course.

No magic. They just sent a message out at 1530 on the 22nd.

Why those routes? Is there a specific shortage of crew that sign them and only them? They seem otherwise a bad choice over reducing frequency on more frequent routes operated from the same depots.

Blackpool South I get as it's mostly duplicated by service buses or you can go by tram to some of it.

I was recently told by a guard that they tend to just plan as normal and then strip diagrams out accordingly. This is “really easy” to do for the planning team. Obviously it’s “catastrophic” for passengers but that doesn’t interest them.

The fact it came from a guard (on the Eastern side too so not as affected by it all) says a lot about their opinions of their employer but it could be inaccurate.

 

[northwichcat]

Why those routes? Is there a specific shortage of crew that sign them and only them? They seem otherwise a bad choice over reducing frequency on more frequent routes operated from the same depots.

Just looking at the timings at Wilmslow on Sunday, it would seem to make more sense to extend the Liverpool to Wilmslow service to Alderley Edge (trains used to terminate there) and to run a Mid Cheshire service over a Crewe stopper. But that would require Northern actually doing some planning!

I was recently told by a guard that they tend to just plan as normal and then strip diagrams out accordingly. This is “really easy” to do for the planning team. Obviously it’s “catastrophic” for passengers but that doesn’t interest them.

The fact it came from a guard (on the Eastern side too so not as affected by it all) says a lot about their opinions of their employer but it could be inaccurate.

It'll change train diagrams though, even if crew diagrams remain the same. For instance, the Blackpool South service usually continues through to Colne on Sundays. Then at Piccadilly on Sundays some units arrive off a Chester service and go on to a Buxton one or vice versa.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Buxton will probably go down to a two-hourly frequency as well, early finish notwithstanding.

 

[Moonshot]

No volunteers for Sunday overtime means no trains running. Doesn't get much simpler than that

 

[TUC]

No volunteers for Sunday overtime means no trains running. Doesn't get much simpler than that

It does in terms of being organised enough to know several weeks in advance how many staff you will have and publicising any consequential service changes then, not 48 hours beforehand.

 

[dk1]

It does in terms of being organised enough to know several weeks in advance how many staff you will have and publicising any consequential service changes then, not 48 hours beforehand.

Drivers can make themselves available or not available right up until a few days before the Sunday roster is compiled as per rostering agreements. There is no way of doing it any sooner.

 

[Moonshot]

It does in terms of being organised enough to know several weeks in advance how many staff you will have and publicising any consequential service changes then, not 48 hours beforehand.

Which has been an issue for a good while.

 

[northwichcat]

It does in terms of being organised enough to know several weeks in advance how many staff you will have and publicising any consequential service changes then, not 48 hours beforehand.

Exactly. Shops have revised hours over Christmas and New Year and they advertise them well and sort out volunteers to do overtime well in advance.

Drivers can make themselves available or not available right up until a few days before the Sunday roster is compiled as per rostering agreements. There is no way of doing it any sooner.

Based on the earlier posts in this thread it seems at Northern there's no problem with drivers working a booked Sunday, it's down to guards (on the west side) not volunteering to work Sunday as overtime and Northern being contracted to provide a Sunday service.

 

[Moonshot]

Exactly. Shops have revised hours over Christmas and New Year and they advertise them well and sort out volunteers to do overtime well in advance.



Based on the earlier posts in this thread it seems at Northern there's no problem with drivers working a booked Sunday, it's down to guards (on the west side) not volunteering to work Sunday as overtime and Northern being contracted to provide a Sunday service.

There doesn't seem to be the appetite to actually have guards on the same commited Sunday terms as drivers. Until that changes ( I don't see it happening anytime soon) , then services on the west side will be entirely reliant on conductor volunteers.

 

[dk1]

Based on the earlier posts in this thread it seems at Northern there's no problem with drivers working a booked Sunday, it's down to guards (on the west side) not volunteering to work Sunday as overtime and Northern being contracted to provide a Sunday service.

Apologies, I should’ve put traincrew rather than just drivers. Was just trying to make the point this cannot be planned very much in advance.

At my TOC we have until Thursday morning to make ourselves not available for the Sunday but unlike Northern (West) we have committed Sundays so it’s never going to be an issue.

 

[sheff1]

Drivers can make themselves available or not available right up until a few days before the Sunday roster is compiled as per rostering agreements. There is no way of doing it any sooner.

They might not be able to be specific but could certainly publish a warning of potential/probable disruption/cancellation much further in advance. That way people could, where able, also plan further in advance to travel on different days and/or by different modes or not at all. People on here have a good idea of how things are likely to pan out, so Northern management should know.

 

[The exile]

Drivers can make themselves available or not available right up until a few days before the Sunday roster is compiled as per rostering agreements. There is no way of doing it any sooner.

And given the current state of industrial relations it would hardly be surprising if crew exercised this right even if they’d known weeks in advance that they weren’t going to be available for work.

 

[jonesy3001]

Manchester Victoria to stalybridge is understandable since they're closing the line early to complete electrification works and switch the wires on.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

And given the current state of industrial relations it would hardly be surprising if crew exercised this right even if they’d known weeks in advance that they weren’t going to be available for work.

One might call this an own goal to keep passenger numbers artificially low by not running services, Thameslink and LNW are expected to be oversubscribed for example, 5 more train loads is 3 to 4k passengers, substantial numbers on the week

 

[dk1]

And given the current state of industrial relations it would hardly be surprising if crew exercised this right even if they’d known weeks in advance that they weren’t going to be available for work.

Yes it's understandably how it is right now.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Manchester Victoria to stalybridge is understandable since they're closing the line early to complete electrification works and switch the wires on.

If only all the routes had such a reason (That is definitely a reason, not an excuse!)

 

[scrapy]

Why those routes? Is there a specific shortage of crew that sign them and only them? They seem otherwise a bad choice over reducing frequency on more frequent routes operated from the same depots.

Blackpool South I get as it's mostly duplicated by service buses or you can go by tram to some of it. Morecambe similarly has a frequent bus service.

As does Stalybridge to Manchester and has alternative TPE services. Ashton to Manchester has Metrolink hopefully ticket acceptance has been arranged.

If it was a joined up railway TPE would just make additional stops at Ashton.

 

[RHolmes]

If it was a joined up railway TPE would just make additional stops at Ashton.

It’s not fitted with a C-ASDO beacon

 

[TUC]

Drivers can make themselves available or not available right up until a few days before the Sunday roster is compiled as per rostering agreements. There is no way of doing it any sooner.

But is that something intrinsic (such as a lack of clarity over what paths will be available to run services) or just what the agreement allows? If it's the latter, it is not correct to say there is 'no way' of doing it sooner.

 

[dk1]

But is that something intrinsic (such as a lack of clarity over what paths will be available to run services) or just what the agreement allows? If it's the latter, it is not correct to say there is 'no way' of doing it sooner.

For example at my TOC the Sunday roster is compiled and posted Thursday afternoons. I have right up until that Thursday morning to make myself available or not available. Rostering agreements state this. Hope that explains.