Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[Philip]

Seems obvious to me that the 'new DMUs' will be cascaded 185s, (maybe with first class retained) to be used on the more long distance Northern Connect routes. I'm guessing an order for new three-car class 172s will be placed and these will be used on the busier and more commuter-like NC routes.

 

[lejog]

I was wondering how that would affect the Ale Trail passengers?

Hopefully it will make life very difficult for them! The only advantage I see to these skip-stop services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ah I see. Guessing Cottingley is served by a train from Brighouse instead?

Yes, the LDS-BGH-MCV calls in both directions.

Might get more people as the TPE service will offer better connections to long distance services.

It might also attract more walkers to Greenfield and Marsden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There will be platform lengthening to allow longer trains to stop at smaller stations between Manchester and Leeds.

More people on the ale trail? That's just what we need! :roll:

Longer platforms have been promised for Slaithwaite, Deighton and Marsden for years... They need to get a wiggle on! Cottingley got the extensions rushed through as a priority because a large number of the Victoria services are 3x23m, and the removal of the Huddersfield stopper would mean a good number of the scheduled calls would have to be missed due to being too long for the platform.

 

[northwichcat]

Seems obvious to me that the 'new DMUs' will be cascaded 185s, (maybe with first class retained) to be used on the more long distance Northern Connect routes. I'm guessing an order for new three-car class 172s will be placed and these will be used on the busier and more commuter-like NC routes.

So you're saying the 281 brand new carriages will all be electric then and DfT have accepted that despite it not meeting the requirement for a minimum of 120 new self-powered vehicles?

 

[43074]

Seems obvious to me that the 'new DMUs' will be cascaded 185s, (maybe with first class retained) to be used on the more long distance Northern Connect routes. I'm guessing an order for new three-car class 172s will be placed and these will be used on the busier and more commuter-like NC routes.

Actually I don't think it's that clear cut, especially when there are routes (e.g. Leeds > Nottingham) where the interactive map on the DfT website suggests there will be 'brand new' trains, whereas other routes e.g. Barrow-in-Furness > Manchester will have 'new' trains'. No one is ruling out the possibility that some of the Northern Connect services will use 185s but it hasn't been explicitly mentioned anywhere.

 

[northwichcat]

Longer platforms have been promised for Slaithwaite, Deighton and Marsden for years... They need to get a wiggle on! Cottingley got the extensions rushed through as a priority because a large number of the Victoria services are 3x23m, and the removal of the Huddersfield stopper would mean a good number of the scheduled calls would have to be missed due to being too long for the platform.

Platforms long enough to take 4 car 170s was planned but never happened due to the semi-fasts being put back until December 17 (from December 16) and the 170s being nabbed by Chiltern.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hopefully it will make life very difficult for them! The only advantage I see to these skip-stop services.

Good news for First's bus operations though...

 

[Philip]

So you're saying the 281 brand new carriages will all be electric then and DfT have accepted that despite it not meeting the requirement for a minimum of 120 new self-powered vehicles?

Read the post again - I said a mixture of 185s and new build class 172s. The number of cascaded 185s compared to new build diesel units is anyone's guess.

Where else will 185s go once the new TPE trains are rolled out?

 

[northwichcat]

and new build class 172s

Won't be 172s as they no longer meet the latest regulations for new diesel trains.

Where else will 185s go once the new TPE trains are rolled out?

Liverpool to Norwich or Manchester to North Wales are both other possibilities without moving them from their current Ardwick base.

 

[Mr Mean]

Yes, the LDS-BGH-MCV calls in both directions.


More people on the ale trail? That's just what we need! :roll:

Longer platforms have been promised for Slaithwaite, Deighton and Marsden for years... They need to get a wiggle on! Cottingley got the extensions rushed through as a priority because a large number of the Victoria services are 3x23m, and the removal of the Huddersfield stopper would mean a good number of the scheduled calls would have to be missed due to being too long for the platform.

Looking at the ITT's for Northern and TPE the minimum calling requirements for Mirfield are:

1 x hourly Northern Huddersfield to Castleford via Wakefield

1 x hourly Northern Manchester Victoria (Southport) to Leeds via Brighouse

Between 07:00 and 21:59 at Leeds, services shall be timed to provide, alongside the TransPennine Express franchisee's services, a maximum interval of 40 minutes between successive departures from Mirfield.

This service is listed to call at Cottingley, Morley, Dewsbury and 2 peak morning and evening Ravensthorpe. No calls at Batley specified.

1 x hourly TPE service to/from Leeds

Eighteen services departing from Leeds to Mirfield shall also call at Dewsbury. Between 07:00 and 21:59 at Leeds, these services shall be timed to provide, alongside the Northern franchisee's services, a maximum interval of 40 minutes between sucessive departures from Leeds to Mirfield.

The semi fast TPE services have equal number of hourly calls at all stations Leeds to Huddersfield except Cottingley that has limited peak service and Batley which is served by both semi-fasts.

Sundays also see an hourly TPE service introduced for stations between Hudds and Leeds (not including Ravensthorpe and Deighton who have a reduced level of service) as opposed to the current Northern 2 hourly pattern.

The above are the MINIMUM requirements for the franchise for the Mirfield area from 2017. This does not preclude either Northern / TPE operating more services and stopping at more stations. The data can be found by googling northern invitation to tender and then looking at the excel sheets linked to within the Govt website.

 

[Philip]

Won't be 172s as they no longer meet the latest regulations for new diesel trains.



Liverpool to Norwich or Manchester to North Wales are both other possibilities without moving them from their current Ardwick base.

The latter is served with 175s so unlikely.

 

[northwichcat]

The latter is served with 175s so unlikely.

The 175s don't stretch far enough to cover all services though and I'm sure Manchester-South Wales passengers would more than welcome released 175s to provide additional capacity.

 

[swt_passenger]

Won't be 172s as they no longer meet the latest regulations for new diesel trains.

Why can't they be 172s with a different engine that does meet the spec? An engine change doesn't require a class number change.

Body work and crash structure wise, if they can still build a 387, they should still be able to build a 172?

 

[northwichcat]

The above are the MINIMUM requirements for the franchise for the Mirfield area from 2017. This does not preclude either Northern / TPE operating more services and stopping at more stations. The data can be found by googling northern invitation to tender and then looking at the excel sheets linked to within the Govt website.

Indeed. Although, operators can only provide additional services from stations if they can find a path for an additional service or one for a service to provide more calls.

 

[BR67]

Actually I don't think it's that clear cut, especially when there are routes (e.g. Leeds > Nottingham) where the interactive map on the DfT website suggests there will be 'brand new' trains, whereas other routes e.g. Barrow-in-Furness > Manchester will have 'new' trains'. No one is ruling out the possibility that some of the Northern Connect services will use 185s but it hasn't been explicitly mentioned anywhere.

If Northern use Class 185s that wouldn't meet the ITT requirements (unless they've won with a non-compliant bid). See page 95.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/407802/northern-invitation-to-tender.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Northern use Class 185s that wouldn't meet the ITT requirements (unless they've won with a non-compliant bid). See page 95.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/407802/northern-invitation-to-tender.pdf

A non-compliant bid may have been allowed in the light of TPE proposing a significant fleet replacement.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm more interesting in page 96:

Electric multiple units that are currently leased by a relevant operator other than
the current TPE and Northern Franchisees but that are not of Class 442

 

[JaJaWa]

A non-compliant bid may have been allowed in the light of TPE proposing a significant fleet replacement.

Arriva won't have known what First was planning though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Arriva won't have known what First was planning though.

No, but DfT will, and Arriva may have made a compliant proposal with a non-compliant option which was then selected due to what DfT knew about First's bid, for instance Arriva may have proposed additional brand new DMUs but a cheaper option of using 185s, or perhaps two options - one with shorter new DMUs throughout, one with longer new DMUs plus 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

No, but DfT will, and Arriva may have made a compliant proposal with a non-compliant option which was then selected due to what DfT knew about First's bid, for instance Arriva may have proposed additional brand new DMUs but a cheaper option of using 185s, or perhaps two options - one with shorter new DMUs throughout, one with longer new DMUs plus 185s.

There were reports last time Connex originally put in a better bid than First/Kelios for TPE but the SRA decided to give First/Kelios some 'constructive feedback' on their bid to make it better (possibly because of Connex screwing up South Central) and then they eventually won but the bidding process is different now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's no reason Northern can't use 185s released from TPE, but these can't be substitutes for the specified new build (with the caveats in the last few posts).

 

[FordFocus]

Why can't they be 172s with a different engine that does meet the spec? An engine change doesn't require a class number change.

Body work and crash structure wise, if they can still build a 387, they should still be able to build a 172?

Can see an Aventra design appearing, possibly with a large diesel engine that meets emissions similar to the 801s and an unpowered trailer. Maybe a bit heavy though.

 

[onlinespotting]

I'm more interesting in page 96:

Without sounding dense, I notice people are obsessed with 442's can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can see an Aventra design appearing, possibly with a large diesel engine that meets emissions similar to the 801s and an unpowered trailer. Maybe a bit heavy though.

I don't see why they would do that, when two or three smaller ones will be easier to fit.

The thing that was an issue was locomotives, if I recall, not DMUs.

 

[geoffk]

Anyone know if the re-mapping of TPE and Northern will take place on Day 1 in April?

Barton-on-Humber branch to EMT
Mcr Airport - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere TPE to Northern.

I understand that a 153 will transfer to EMT for the Barton service but how will Northern resource the others? The six 156s being hired to TPE will return but these operate as three six-car trains and four are needed just for Blackpool.

TPE will need all its 185s if the remaining 170s go south then.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anyone know if the re-mapping of TPE and Northern will take place on Day 1 in April?
Barton-on-Humber branch to EMT
Mcr Airport - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere TPE to Northern.
I understand that a 153 will transfer to EMT for the Barton service but how will Northern resource the others? The six 156s being hired to TPE will return but these operate as three six-car trains and four are needed just for Blackpool.
TPE will need all its 185s if the remaining 170s go south then.

I would expect train and station staff, plus a sub-fleet of 185s, would transfer to Northern to cover the transferred north west services.
Services would then carry on as normal under a different TOC banner.
Finding replacements for TPE's 4x170s is a different problem.

 

[Haydn1971]

Liverpool to Norwich.

Hopefully not as a single three car unit !

I'd expect the 185's to be retained on the cross Pennine routes they were designed for, cascading to EMT makes some sense in terms of giving a first class service between Norwich and Liverpool, but keeping them on the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester line also makes sense in terms of Northern units and keeping pace with the retained TPE 185's - unless of course the 185's are completely displaced on this route for the five car 125mph units.

 

[lejog]

Arriva won't have known what First was planning though.

Having worked on major bids to government and the private sector, typically after flogging yourself to death preparing your proposal, you get a period three or four weeks where you can twiddle your thumbs/stay in bed/go on holiday (as appropriate). And then the "what if? period starts, questions from the clients start seeping through, like what if we can get a fleet of 185s for you? I know the ITT said x, but what if we say y? or z?. Then if the client likes your bid you will be invited to submit a new cost based on a sometimes very different service to that they originally asked for in the ITT (possibly several variants and iterations of this), before a period of intense negotiation in which both parties can tear up previous strongly held positions in order to thrash out a price and agree a contract.

If the DfT saw a TPE bid that frees up 185s, they would soon be on to all Northern bidders remaining in the competition asking what if?

It would be a mistake to assume that anything specified in an ITT necessarily passes through to the contract, what the contract specifies is what gets delivered.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone know if the re-mapping of TPE and Northern will take place on Day 1 in April?

Barton-on-Humber branch to EMT
Mcr Airport - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere TPE to Northern.

I understand that a 153 will transfer to EMT for the Barton service but how will Northern resource the others? The six 156s being hired to TPE will return but these operate as three six-car trains and four are needed just for Blackpool.

TPE will need all its 185s if the remaining 170s go south then.

Doesn't ever usually happen on day 1 like that. Route swaps and stuff usually coincide with a main timetable change. It has already been said that the Barton service will not transfer to EMT until that franchise is re-let in 2017.

 

[Chris125]

Surprised the D Trains hadn't been mentioned yet. Considering they're an "Arriva innovation", they will surely be used, at least for trials?

I can't recall Arriva having anything to do with Vivarail and the 230s.