Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[Stats]

Without sounding dense, I notice people are obsessed with 442's can someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing?

Oh no! Now you've done it! Expect 52 pages discussing them now.
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Some slightly confusing messages from Northern Rail on its website regarding the new franchise http://www.northernrail.org/news/7807

'Who has owned Northern in the past?

Serco and Abellio (Northern was created in 2004 by merging First North Western and Arriva Trains Northern)
12 December 2004 – 31 March 2016

Arriva Rail North Limited
1 April 2016 - March 2025'.

Well that's not correct. The Northern franchise is owned by the DfT. The TOC is the franchisee who is contracted to operate it within the agreed specification.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I believe a lot of senior staff are staying on, and the branding will be staying pretty much the same, so they are calling it a continuation of the current company rather than a replacement.

As I said elsewhere in the thread, I don't expect the Arriva name to go anywhere near the franchise until the new and refurbished trains are in and ready to go. For now they'll keep Northern because it'll be the same people operating the same trains. I doubt it'll still be called Northern at the end of it.

Although part of the change may well be the fact DafT have started putting clauses into the new contracts to say outgoing franchisees have to remove all branding before departure, not just brand names. So I'm sure Arriva will wait and see before spending a fortune on branding.

 

[sprinterguy]

TPE seem to have an ambitious plan for getting the new trains in place ASAP but the ones produced initially won't replace 185s but will provide extra capacity and it might be TPE aim to release the 350/4s first.

According to the Northern/TPE franchise timeline, the first thirteen new trains for the TPE franchise will enter service on the North Transpennine route, starting from December 2017.
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They will probably need at least 3 new emus (2 diagrams + 1 spare) for a Liverpool / Scotland service, so it might make sense to displace the 350/4s from the Manchester/Scotland services at about the same time.

The franchise timeline states that twelve new EMUs are being ordered to work the Manchester/Liverpool to Scotland services, with the Liverpool service starting in December 2018 and the new trains in fleet service by December 2019, so it does seem that the 350/4s will go within a year of the Liverpool service starting.

 

[lejog]

It looks like the service pattern between Liverpool-Manchester via Newton le Willows will be no improvement. One an hour (presumably electric) to Mcr Airport; one an hour to Victoria and Bradford, which will have to be a DMU for a long time yet. So the benefits of electrification have been ignored.

In my view, not ignored but overridden by more important considerations. I refer the OP to the Network Rail Northern Hub home page with its subtitle "Our plan to stimulate economic growth in the north of England through better connections between key towns and cities". Then choose the Bradford to Manchester Airport and Liverpool tab (although you can guess the contents).

The rail industry received £800m of public funding for the Northern Hub to benefit the local economy, not to benefit the rail industry. I'm glad that the rail industry is now delivering those benefits to the taxpayer to help payback their investment.

 

[IanXC]

Oh no! Now you've done it! Expect 52 pages discussing them now.

Quite, however if that were to happen expect 52 pages of deleted posts....

I have deleted a number of referneces to 442s which were beyond the initial question and discussion of the ITT. Unless there is an increadibly good reason for their mention again expect any further references to meet the same fate!

 

[Viscount702]

Assuming the Chord gets built the declared intention was for electric trains from west of Victoria to go to Stalybridge and diesel to Rochdale.

At the moment I can't identify any trains which will actually terminate at these stations as most trains seem to go through to the east.

Do we know what might stop at Ashton and what services may terminate in the east facing bays at Victoria.

 

[northwichcat]

Assuming the Chord gets built the declared intention was for electric trains from west of Victoria to go to Stalybridge and diesel to Rochdale.

At the moment I can't identify any trains which will actually terminate at these stations as most trains seem to go through to the east.

Do we know what might stop at Ashton and what services may terminate in the east facing bays at Victoria.

We don't know the exact service patterns yet. Arriva have announced their headline 'Northern Connect' patterns and any improvements they'll make. They haven't said anything about the final destinations of services like the Wigan-Victoria services or the Blackpool-Victoria service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any truth that 1st April is a significant date for the new franchise...:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Is there any truth that 1st April is a significant date for the new franchise...:roll:

Yes it will start on 1st April.

 

[geoffk]

Rochdale with its new platform will presumably getting extra terminating services anyway, although I can't see this mentioned. Otherwise the current building work going on there will be a waste of money!

The trains terminating at Rochdale are assumed to be "stoppers" so that the Leeds via Brighouse and Blackburn via Tod Curve services can run fast Vic to Rochdale, except no doubt at peak times. So there will be five an hour from Tod to Rochdale, where they would be joined by two stoppers - seven in all. And there's more freight coming this way.

Is that what everyone understands?

We seem to be fixated on Bradford - Manchester in 55 minutes. That should be achieved by linespeed improvements east of Hebden Bridge, not by missing out somewhere as important as Rochdale.

 

[bluenoxid]

Is there any truth that 1st April is a significant date for the new franchise...:roll:

Start of the four weekly approx period on the railways.

 

[323235]

According to the Northern/TPE franchise timeline, the first thirteen new trains for the TPE franchise will enter service on the North Transpennine route, starting from December 2017.
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The franchise timeline states that twelve new EMUs are being ordered to work the Manchester/Liverpool to Scotland services, with the Liverpool service starting in December 2018 and the new trains in fleet service by December 2019, so it does seem that the 350/4s will go within a year of the Liverpool service starting.

So only 12 units replacing 10 with the additional Liverpool's? I would have thought they would need double the 350/4 's 10 units to cope with the demand and then some additional units for the Liverpool. The 350s in 4 car and 3 car 185s just can't cope anymore.

 

[Photohunter71]

12 new EMU's to work the Manchester airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh routes? I thought the 350's took care of that! So will they be AT300's or some other new build? Will they decide on a livery too? If so what?

 

[sprinterguy]

So only 12 units replacing 10 with the additional Liverpool's? I would have thought they would need double the 350/4 's 10 units to cope with the demand and then some additional units for the Liverpool. The 350s in 4 car and 3 car 185s just can't cope anymore.

It does seem like a fairly tight allocation, although to be fair First are unlikely to order more trains than are strictly necessary to provide the service.

If all the new trains, both Bi-mode and electric, are based on a common design then hopefully it won't be difficult for one of the North Transpennine Bi-mode units to fill in on Manchester - Scotland turns as required if there is one spare to be had.
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12 new EMU's to work the Manchester airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh routes? I thought the 350's took care of that! So will they be AT300's or some other new build? Will they decide on a livery too? If so what?

It's been fairly clear that the 350s were only intended as an interim measure until policy on Transpennine North electrification, and a subsequent new fleet, had been decided. Plus, the 4-car 350s are often overcrowded and additional capacity is most definitely needed, the route being a victim of the increased frequency's success. Additional trains are also needed to work the Liverpool services.

We won't know for at least another week (and possibly not until the new year) what new trains have been ordered. Hitachi AT-300 sounds like the obvious choice for a fleet of 125mph electric and bi-mode trains, based on a large number of existing orders for First Group, but now Siemens' name has been thrown into the ring, who could perhaps offer their 125mph Desiro Verve if they can sling a diesel engine under it.

There will, of course, be a livery, although it remains to be seen how different it'll be to the current First "Dynamic Lines" (either variant that adorns the TPE fleet).

(Sorry for the thread drift - I appreciate that this would be better discussed in the TPE franchise announcement thread)

 

[The Ham]

Yes it will start on 1st April.

Followed by an announcement that the planned withdrawal of pacers was the longest lead up to an April the 1st joke ever!

 

[ashworth]

The speeding up of trains between Leeds and Nottingham by running via Moorthorpe instead of Barnsley is to be welcomed. It's currently nearly always quicker to change to/from a XC service at Chesterfield and the journey planners nearly always direct passengers to do that. I nearly always do the whole journey on the 158 because even an old Northern 158 is usually more comfortable than trying to board an overcrowded voyager especially at Leeds.

I do, however, wonder how reliable the new service will be with running to/ from Bradford with reversal at Leeds. How much time is going to be allowed for this reversal at such a busy station. I understand that the plan is to provide better through journey opportunities from Bradford to other Yorkshire destinations like Wakefield and Sheffield. Is it such a good idea to do this by attaching a short distance like Bradford to Leeds, including a reversal, onto a longer distance service like the one to Nottingham. Bradford to Leeds and Wakefield Westgate to Leeds are very busy sections of the route and the majority of passengers will be wanting to get on and off at Leeds. Although there may be a few through passengers the train will generally almost need to completely empty and fill up again each time during the reversal at Leeds.

There have been many requests, over the last few years for a through Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-Skipton-Carlsle service by joining the Nottingham to Leeds and Leeds to Carlisle services. A reason often given for not doing this has been reliability and time keeping issues because of the service having to reverse at such a busy station as Leeds!

 

[wigwamman]

Press report on new Arriva franchise for Northern.

ARRIVA has confirmed further details of its plans for new rolling stock for the Northern franchise following its selection as preferred bidder for the contract on December 9.

Around £400m will be invested in 98 new 160km/h multiple units (281 vehicles) comprising 43 EMUs (three and four-car) and 55 DMUs (two and three-car), which will enable the withdrawal of the fleet of class 142 and 144 Pacer railbuses by 2019. Tendering for the new trains is underway and Arriva says it expects to sign a contract by April.
The new EMUs will be deployed on Northern Connect services from Blackpool, Windermere and Preston to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Stoke-on-Trent. They will also be used on Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services, which are currently operated by class 323 EMUs, and supplement the existing fleet of class 333 EMUs on services from Leeds to Ilkley, Skipton, and Doncaster....

 

[Bletchleyite]

2-car DMUs. What on earth for?

There may be trouble ahead...

This is interesting:

In addition to the new trains, Arriva will receive DMUs displaced by electrification of lines in central Scotland and the Great Western Main Line from London to Reading, Newbury, and Oxford.

Which ones? The 180s maybe? Or 150s? Seems further to clarify that it won't be 185s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can't help feeling that 2-car DMUs are going to be inadequate for the Northern Connect services they will work.
Hopefully there will be scope to extend them at some future date.
Certainly looks like the 323s are going.
Liverpool is not in the EMU list, so it isn't clear if 319s will continue to work from there.
The remark about DMU cascades from GWR is interesting.
Presumably the trains heading north will not be 16x from the Thames Valley, but 15x from further west after the 16xs have displaced them.

 

[hwl]

Interesting rail journal article with few more details on the rolling stock plan:

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...northern-rolling-stock-plans.html?channel=524

Around £400m will be invested in 98 new 160km/h multiple units (281 vehicles) comprising 43 EMUs (three and four-car) and 55 DMUs (two and three-car), which will enable the withdrawal of the fleet of class 142 and 144 Pacer railbuses by 2019. Tendering for the new trains is underway and Arriva says it expects to sign a contract by April.

The new EMUs will be deployed on Northern Connect services from Blackpool, Windermere and Preston to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Stoke-on-Trent. They will also be used on Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services, which are currently operated by class 323 EMUs, and supplement the existing fleet of class 333 EMUs on services from Leeds to Ilkley, Skipton, and Doncaster.

Arriva says the new DMUs will operate "almost all" diesel Northern Connect services, which will link northern England's core cities (Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, and Newcastle) with destinations including Chester, Barrow-in-Furness, Lincoln, Nottingham, and Hull.

In addition to the new trains, Arriva will receive DMUs displaced by electrification of lines in central Scotland and the Great Western Main Line from London to Reading, Newbury, and Oxford.

Those numbers suggest 42 EMUs/ DMUs will be longer than the minimum length i.e. 4 car for EMU or 3 car for DMU and 56 minimum length 3 car EMU and 2 car DMU.

The Stock ex GWR will presumably be 150s and the ex Scottish stock 170s.

Edit to add: Other noticed the article while i was typing and doing some calculations

 

[Chris125]

According to the International Rail Journal tendering for the new trains is underway and they expect to sign a contract by April.

They will cost around £400m will be invested in 98 new 160km/h multiple units (281 vehicles) comprising :

• 
  43 EMUs (three and four-car)
  
  These will work Northern Connect services from Blackpool, Windermere and Preston to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Stoke-on-Trent.
  
  They will also see use on Glossop/Hadfield services, while supplementing the existing fleet of class 333 EMUs on services from Leeds to Ilkley, Skipton, and Doncaster.

• 55 DMUs (two and three-car)
  
  These will operate "almost all" diesel Northern Connect services.

Arriva will also receive DMUs cascaded from Scotrail and GWR.

Chris

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't help feeling that 2-car DMUs are going to be inadequate for the Northern Connect services they will work.

I agree. They should be 4-car, or at *least* 3, but only 3 if there is to be no First Class.

The TPE lesson has clearly not been learnt. 2-car DMUs are only for branch lines. 2-car DMUs are *not* enough for regional expresses.

 

[northwichcat]

In addition to the new trains, Arriva will receive DMUs displaced by electrification of lines in central Scotland and the Great Western Main Line from London to Reading, Newbury, and Oxford.

Which ones? The 180s maybe? Seems further to clarify that it won't be 185s.

I imagine they mean the Sprinters released by cascading the 165 and 166s west.

 

[bradders1983]

They could always couple together 2 two-car trains, of course. May be having them built that way just for a bit of flexibility.

 

[northwichcat]

Can't help feeling that 2-car DMUs are going to be inadequate for the Northern Connect services they will work.

Here's the list I worked out which would be Northern Connect. Obviously the two Newcastle routes aren't getting brand new trains.

Manchester Airport to Barrow (new build DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Windermere (new build EMUs)
Manchester Airport to Liverpool via Warrington (new build DMUs)
Chester to Leeds via Warrington and Bradford (new build DMUs)
Liverpool to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Manchester Airport to Leeds via Bradford (new build DMUs)
Leeds to Lincoln via Sheffield (new build DMUs)
Sheffield to Scarborough (new build DMUs)
Middlesbrough to Newcastle (refurbished 158s)
Newcastle to Carlisle (refurbished DMUs – 158s?)
York to Blackpool (new build DMUs)
Bradford to Nottingham via Wakefield (new build DMUs)

The first three definitely need a minimum of 3 car - ideally 4 or 5 car. For Bradford services it's a bit debateable - they'll be more trains. How many of the others would 2 cars be suitable for - at least off-peak?

I think saying 2 and 3 cars rules out the Stadler FLIRTs, as a 2 car vehicle with an articulated engine vehicle doesn't sound viable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could always couple together 2 two-car trains, of course.

They could, but if you're always going to do that why waste money on cab equipment? If they are ordering 2s there must be an intention to run them as 2s at some point. Sheer madness.
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How many of the others would 2 cars be suitable for - at least off-peak?

2-car sets are suitable for Ormskirk-Preston, Kirkby-Wigan and possibly the Windermere branch (*only* the branch) in winter due to the lack of tourist traffic. Oh, and the Cumbrian Coast (but *not* Lancaster to Barrow). And Skipton-Morecambe. You get the idea.

As these units are not intended for those lines, ordering 2-car sets is sheer madness. It was sheer madness the last time that part of the world got new trains (175s) - and overcrowding has got 10 times worse since then.

Time for a "keep the Pacers" campaign?
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I think saying 2 and 3 cars rules out the Stadler FLIRTs, as a 2 car vehicle with an articulated engine vehicle doesn't sound viable.

It is viable; there are some in Switzerland like that. But they are short vehicles like Pacers - I would be surprised if this lot was not all 23m. Class 172s with a new engine package seem likely to me. Hopefully with gangways given that the short lengths mean (I *really* hope it means) they will be running mainly in pairs of units.

 

[hwl]

They could, but if you're always going to do that why waste money on cab equipment? If they are ordering 2s there must be an intention to run them as 2s at some point. Sheer madness.
Hopefully with gangways given that the short lengths mean (I *really* hope it means) they will be running mainly in pairs of units.

Some of the DMUs will get cascaded to other routes when electrification eventually happens in which case 2x 2car is potentially more useful than 1x 4car DMU (ROSCO may have already told them there is no market for 4 car DMUs)

As noted in my post above:
"42 EMUs/ DMUs will be longer than the minimum length i.e. 4 car for EMU or 3 car for DMU
and 56 minimum length 3 car EMU and 2 car DMU."

If only a small number of EMUs are 4 car then a reasonable number of DMUs have to be 3 car instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of the DMUs will get cascaded to other routes when electrification eventually happens in which case 2x 2car is potentially more useful than 1x 4car DMU (ROSCO may have already told them there is no market for 4 car DMUs)

This is a fair point, given that I guess they will end up being cascaded to the kind of branch lines where it is unlikely that more than 2-car will be needed (such as the ones I noted above).

If that is the case, though, I hope they are gangwayed (as the LM 172s are) and there is no temptation (other than in the event of a fault) to run them in 2-car formations. The problem is that when money talks that temptation is there - see the completely inadequate 4-car formations LM like to run on weekends. One good thing about the Thameslink 8 and 12-car fixed formations is that that practice will no longer be possible.

 

[northwichcat]

Some of the DMUs will get cascaded to other routes when electrification eventually happens in which case 2x 2car is potentially more useful than 1x 4car DMU (ROSCO may have already told them there is no market for 4 car DMUs)

Just thinking about a 2 and 3 car order option that would allow any length of formation between 2 and 8 car. With 3 car and 4 car that would allow only 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 so no 5 car option, as well as no 2 car option. Although, of course, the more cabs in your formation the less passenger space.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which ones? The 180s maybe? Or 150s? .

Definitely not the 180s, they are already known to be on lease with GC from December 2016 - although subleased back until their replacement IEPs arrive during early 2017...