Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just thinking about a 2 and 3 car order option that would allow any length of formation between 2 and 8 car. With 3 car and 4 car that would allow only 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 so no 5 car option, as well as no 2 car option. Although, of course, the more cabs in your formation the less passenger space.

175s were supposed to be infinitely flexible as a mix of 2/3-car.
But of course they hardly ever run together and we end up with 2-car on Manchester-Cardiff.
The number of cabs is a significant cost driver and will be even more so when ETCS has to be fitted.

 

[hwl]

Just thinking about a 2 and 3 car order option that would allow any length of formation between 2 and 8 car. With 3 car and 4 car that would allow only 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 so no 5 car option, as well as no 2 car option. Although, of course, the more cabs in your formation the less passenger space.

Just in terms of Pacer replacement they need to replace 92x 2car and 10x 3car pacers.

With potentially the equivalent of 40x 2 car 150s from GWR and circa 50x 3car 170 s from Scotland but I'm not sure they would take on all those units with all the new stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But of course they hardly ever run together and we end up with 2-car on Manchester-Cardiff.

Quite. And Arriva, operators of ATW, really should have noticed this.

 

[WatcherZero]

Says they will be receiving cascaded diesels from Central Belt Scotland and Great Western Reading/Oxford-London as well. We know refurbished 158's will be used in the North East on Connect services while the rest of Connect services will be new build so it looks like the majority of non-Connect services will be 170's 150's 158's and possibly 165/166 (If indeed FGW are looking at D-train/ePacer for the South West or Arriva has snapped them up).

Some details released by TfGM some of which I didn't see in the main franchise award blurbs:

*Refurbished 319's will operate South Manchester services on an interim basis until new build units arrive, 323's will be released.
*Brand new 125mph intercity style electric trains on Transpennine Express services to Scotland, offering reductions in journey time of up to 10 minutes, and improved comfort.
*An extra eighteen Northern services per day to Bradford, with seven extra services after 1900hrs.
*Three extra Manchester-Piccadilly to Hull using refurbed trains
*Two extra direct TransPennine Express services to Middlesbrough each day using brand new trains.
*Hourly Northern Connect service from Manchester Victoria to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay operated by new build train.
*Northern services between Manchester, Macclesfield, Stoke and Crewe being operated by brand new electric units.
*More Northern services arriving at the airport early in the morning, with a minimum of nine departures from central Manchester and beyond before 0700hrs, minimum 13 departures after 2130.
*Rochdale, Salford Crescent, Bolton, Heald Green, Deansgate, Horwich Parkway, Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria stations will all become Northern Connect stations, to be staffed 0600hrs to 2200hrs daily, with catering facilities and free Wi-Fi.
*The following currently unstaffed stations will have staff available to assist passengers for at least part of the day: Bryn, Flowery Field, Westhoughton, Blackrod, Irlam and Mills Hill.
*Refurbishment of Manchester Airport waiting rooms
*Stalybridge will have delivery lockers and a click and collect service.
*TfGM still planning to take over management of stations, to be announced in the new year.
*Rochdale will benefit from up to six trains per hour, half of these being Northern Connect services operated by brand new diesel trains. One of these continuing to Manchester airport, one to Liverpool and one to Warrington and Chester. Four trains per hour to both Bradford and Leeds.
*Bolton will be served by a mix of longer diesel trains and a mix of brand new and fully refurbished electric trains, with seven trains per hour to Manchester for most of the day. Two trains per hour will run through to Manchester Airport for most of the day.
*Wigan will have a Northern Connect service to Manchester Airport, seven trains per hour to Manchester, Electric trains to Bolton post electrification and 4tph on the Atherton line.
*Manchester Airport will have Northern Connect Warrington, Bradford and Halifax and TPE Newcastle with brand new trains, services to Wigan, Lancaster, Barrow-in-Furness and Windermere will also be Northern Connect as well as 2 additional TPE services per day to Middlesbrough.

 

[47802]

So looks like we wont know who is supplying the new trains to Northern for a few months yet, and get ready for endless speculation about what's going to happen to the surplus 185's presumably these heavy duty units are too expensive for Northern.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Some details released by TfGM some of which I didn't see in the main franchise award blurbs:

Could you possibly provide a link to these? Thanks

 

[Viscount702]

I am trying to work out which will be the 4tph on the Atherton Line.

Southport x2

Barrow?

But what is the other. It won't be Windermere because that will be electric (New Build)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am trying to work out which will be the 4tph on the Atherton Line.

Southport x2

Barrow?

But what is the other. It won't be Windermere because that will be electric (New Build)

Kirkby I presume?

 

[Viscount702]

Kirkby I presume?

I thought that was to be a shuttle to Wigan but maybe not now.

So maybe

Southport - Rochda;e

Kirby - Rochdale

Southport - Leeds/Bradford

Barrow - Airport

If so I think the last one and maybe the last two won't stop between Wigan and Salford

 

[Bletchleyite]

If so I think the last one and maybe the last two won't stop between Wigan and Salford

That would be pushing the definition of "4tph on the Atherton line"...yes, literally, but not usefully.

 

[wigwamman]

Hitachi AT-200 rumor seems to be doing the rounds.

 

[158150]

hi there im new to this forum would like to know if the new franchise will improve the in the north of england
tony

 

[Bevan Price]

I thought that was to be a shuttle to Wigan but maybe not now.

So maybe

Southport - Rochda;e

Kirby - Rochdale

Southport - Leeds/Bradford

Barrow - Airport

If so I think the last one and maybe the last two won't stop between Wigan and Salford

I think the Barrow - Airport sevices will be via Bolton & Chorley, or alternatively via Chat Moss route & Wigan NW, to replace the TPE Scottish services when they revert to the Bolton route after electrification.

Barrow - Airport via Wigan & Atherton would be too slow unless there is a big increase in the line speed limit (50 mph) between Pendleton & Crow Nest Jn.

 

[absolutelymilk]

hi there im new to this forum would like to know if the new franchise will improve the in the north of england

Yes it certainly will! Lots of new services and new trains
http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html
There is a map here showing the improvements, are there any lines you are particularly interested in?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Is it just me or does the typeface for the new Northern Banner logo look a lot like a lighter variant of the old Northern Spirit logo?

I've thought the same, plus all that is needed on the signs is a sticker going over the "old" Northern logo.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see any mention of what is happening with the via Brighouse services, do I assume they are staying as they are, both stoppers same as now, both hourly? Presumably with sprinters, hopefully 158s.

Hourly on Sundays apparently rather than the one every two hours at the moment.

 

[geoffk]

Northern will continue to run 2 trains per hour on the Copy Pit route, the existing direct between Liverpool and Manchester Airport and a new direct link to Manchester Victoria and on to Bradford via the Calder Valley.

Not seen any mention of the Liverpool - Warrington BQ service. There will need to be two stoppers per hour Liverpool - Earlestown, as now, unless the Airport service becomes a stopper.

 

[WatcherZero]

Windermere electric services are a good four years minimum off.
Barrow wont be via Chat Moss as theyve said the wigan-airport express replacement of TPE would be electric.

 

[47802]

hi there im new to this forum would like to know if the new franchise will improve the in the north of england
tony

Well depends what you mean by improving the North of England, I doubt it will improve the **** weather, or the thick, blunt, ignorant Yorkshireman that infest the place (Note I am Yorkshire myself so I can say that) but you should get some better trains.

 

[Greybeard33]

Interesting rail journal article with few more details on the rolling stock plan:

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...northern-rolling-stock-plans.html?channel=524

Those numbers suggest 42 EMUs/ DMUs will be longer than the minimum length i.e. 4 car for EMU or 3 car for DMU and 56 minimum length 3 car EMU and 2 car DMU.

£400m for 281 carriages would be only £1.4m per vehicle - perhaps implies that the majority of vehicles will form EMUs?

How about this for a guess at a possible breakdown:
DMUs: 45 2-car + 10 3-car, 55 units comprising 120 self-powered vehicles per the ITT requirement
EMUs: 32 4-car + 11 3-car, 43 units comprising the remaining 161 vehicles.

Might that work, or would more DMUs be needed to operate the services promised "brand-new" trains?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The strong industry rumour doing the rounds this week is that CAF is the preferred builder for all 281 vehicles. We shall see in due course.

Much fun is being had trying to work out the 77 extra (not new) vehicles that are going to go to this franchise by December 2017. 17 of that total are presumably the extra vehicles from the 319 in/323 out swap but what makes up the other 60?

GW will free up 30 x 150 cars (and 14 x 153 cars) by this date but if you include the potentially free Scottish 156, 158 and 170 units as well, you are well over the top. So have they swerved the relatively expensive cl.170 units in favour of just taking 15x in as second hand DMU stock?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

The strong industry rumour doing the rounds this week is that CAF is the preferred builder for all 281 vehicles. We shall see in due course.

Much fun is being had trying to work out the 77 extra (not new) vehicles that are going to go to this franchise by December 2017. 17 of that total are presumably the extra vehicles from the 319 in/323 out swap but what makes up the other 60?

GW will free up 30 x 150 cars (and 14 x 153 cars) by this date but if you include the potentially free Scottish 156, 158 and 170 units as well, you are well over the top. So have they swerved the relatively expensive cl.170 units in favour of just taking 15x in as second hand DMU stock?

Seeing as they came from it, from a technical point of view, would it be possible to de-convert the 153s back into 155s? if not, would it be possible to semi pair a 153 with a 155 to create a "3" car 155?

 

[47802]

The strong industry rumour doing the rounds this week is that CAF is the preferred builder for all 281 vehicles. We shall see in due course.

Much fun is being had trying to work out the 77 extra (not new) vehicles that are going to go to this franchise by December 2017. 17 of that total are presumably the extra vehicles from the 319 in/323 out swap but what makes up the other 60?

GW will free up 30 x 150 cars (and 14 x 153 cars) by this date but if you include the potentially free Scottish 156, 158 and 170 units as well, you are well over the top. So have they swerved the relatively expensive cl.170 units in favour of just taking 15x in as second hand DMU stock?

I wouldn't be surprised if it is CAF, if it is pity perhaps it isn't a Manufacturer with more UK input at least for the EMU's but I suspect CAF have been very competitive.

If the numbers add up I wouldn't be surprised if they are not going for 170's as I would have thought that if they were they would use them on Northern Connect Services instead of 158's.

 

[Class 170101]

Im not too worried, the number of fast and semi fast trains between the two cities is likely to go up from the current 3 an hour up to 4 and with one of them going a faster way than it did before.

Now if we can divert the CrossCountry that currently goes via Doncaster through Leeds instead and it would make me an even happier bunny!

Prefer a 3rd Path between (Bristol,) Birmingham and York to be honest and leave the existing oncaster service alone.

Currently the S&C catering is provided by volunteers (the Friends of Settle Carlisle railway?) so improved catering would depend on them. I personally would like catering on Middlesbrough to Newcastle routes and Newcastle to Carlisle too.

Catering is provided by the Settle-Carlisle Railway Development Company. Improved catering on trains is great (and appreciated when good service is provided) but can be difficult to get adequate returns.

Unless of course Arriva are required by franchise agreement to improve the catering then Arriva may have to run it directly instead of using the said volunteers.

Seeing as they came from it, from a technical point of view, would it be possible to de-convert the 153s back into 155s? if not, would it be possible to semi pair a 153 with a 155 to create a "3" car 155?

I think under DDA if the 153s were to remain they would have to be restored back to being Class 155s as built though probably the small cabs would remain boxed in. However how their capacity is replaced remains unanswered.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 158's were used for the 'Scenic' over 170's in Scotland. The 158 supposedly have large windows making for good viewing though reportedly the 170's are expensive to operate could have factored in to it. Would be surprised if the increased expense of operating them outweighs the higher leasing charges of a new build DMU though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 158's were used for the 'Scenic' over 170's in Scotland. The 158 supposedly have large windows making for good viewing though reportedly the 170's are expensive to operate could have factored in to it. Would be surprised if the increased expense of operating them outweighs the higher leasing charges of a new build DMU though.

158s and 170s both have big windows, though the 158 probably has the edge in being a long tube you can (if tall) look out along the length of.

The 158 is an excellent regional express unit in many ways, and some of the refurbs have made it even better - the ATW one, which I would expect will be what the Northern Connect ones will look like, is particularly good, as is the ScotRail Inverness one (which is now being applied to all of them).

 

[bnsf734]

I was skimming through an article in the latest Todays Railways in WH Smith today about Tyseley depot and there was a paragraph in there about London Midland releasing their 3 remaining Class 150 DMUs to Northern in 2017. Quite what will replace them is anybodies guess (Class 230?) but there is another 6 vehicles for Northern in 2017.
.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was skimming through an article in the latest Todays Railways in WH Smith today about Tyseley depot and there was a paragraph in there about London Midland releasing their 3 remaining Class 150 DMUs to Northern in 2017. Quite what will replace them is anybodies guess (Class 230?) but there is another 6 vehicles for Northern in 2017.
.

When's East West Rail due to be done? Bedford-Bletchley, on which 2x23m doesn't fit the platforms but a single 153 is not enough for the school trains, is probably their mainstay. I suppose that until then they could take on 3 x 2-car D-trains and run the line as a self-contained "mini franchise" in the manner of the Stourbridge Shuttle. Having a spare at Bletchley would certainly improve the service on the line.

Back on topic for Northern, I guess this is another case of consolidating a particular unit type on a smaller number of TOCs which will make the ROSCOs' lives easier.

 

[The Ham]

The strong industry rumour doing the rounds this week is that CAF is the preferred builder for all 281 vehicles. We shall see in due course.

Much fun is being had trying to work out the 77 extra (not new) vehicles that are going to go to this franchise by December 2017. 17 of that total are presumably the extra vehicles from the 319 in/323 out swap but what makes up the other 60?

GW will free up 30 x 150 cars (and 14 x 153 cars) by this date but if you include the potentially free Scottish 156, 158 and 170 units as well, you are well over the top. So have they swerved the relatively expensive cl.170 units in favour of just taking 15x in as second hand DMU stock?

There is a risk that not all the GW units will be quite as available as planned depending on how the electrification goes. If it's late then either GW will be trying to retain the units they currently have or will be looking to take on anything else spare to plug the gaps if others have leased their units. My guess I'd that GW (being an incumbent franchise) has been able to sort and sign agreements by now (I.e. before Northern is able to)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was skimming through an article in the latest Todays Railways in WH Smith today about Tyseley depot and there was a paragraph in there about London Midland releasing their 3 remaining Class 150 DMUs to Northern in 2017. Quite what will replace them is anybodies guess (Class 230?) but there is another 6 vehicles for Northern in 2017.
.

With Chase and Bromsgrove electrification, the replacement for the 150s will be internally cascaded Turbostars which will be replaced by EMUs - the Manchester 323s, possibly among others.

 

[lejog]

The speeding up of trains between Leeds and Nottingham by running via Moorthorpe instead of Barnsley is to be welcomed. It's currently nearly always quicker to change to/from a XC service at Chesterfield and the journey planners nearly always direct passengers to do that. I nearly always do the whole journey on the 158 because even an old Northern 158 is usually more comfortable than trying to board an overcrowded voyager especially at Leeds.

I do, however, wonder how reliable the new service will be with running to/ from Bradford with reversal at Leeds. How much time is going to be allowed for this reversal at such a busy station. I understand that the plan is to provide better through journey opportunities from Bradford to other Yorkshire destinations like Wakefield and Sheffield. Is it such a good idea to do this by attaching a short distance like Bradford to Leeds, including a reversal, onto a longer distance service like the one to Nottingham. Bradford to Leeds and Wakefield Westgate to Leeds are very busy sections of the route and the majority of passengers will be wanting to get on and off at Leeds. Although there may be a few through passengers the train will generally almost need to completely empty and fill up again each time during the reversal at Leeds.

There have been many requests, over the last few years for a through Nottingham-Sheffield-Leeds-Skipton-Carlsle service by joining the Nottingham to Leeds and Leeds to Carlisle services. A reason often given for not doing this has been reliability and time keeping issues because of the service having to reverse at such a busy station as Leeds!

A service entering Leeds from Wakefield and departing to Bradford Interchange travels to Holbeck Junction in both directions. It is just equivalent to all the services from the west that terminate at Leeds. If anything, a lower dwell time should be an improvement on a terminator, as long as it is routed to a suitable platform!

However any new service to Bradford Interchange will cross incoming VTEC and XC trains at Holbeck.