Northern to London - could it work?

[Bletchleyite]

Came to make a pie gag. Very subjective stuff - chips are delicious to me. Can't bear the smell of an egg sandwich. Either no food or all is welcome. The amenities of Piccadilly etc include McDonalds/BK, Leon, Subway - all smell.

I love eating chips and do so several times a week, but the smell of someone else eating them on the train is just unpleasant. Burger King is worse.

Egg sandwiches I'd ban entirely. But the majority of what you'll buy from those (and M&S) don't stink the train out like fried food does, even heated sandwiches from Subway.

Merseyrail used to have quite oddly worded "don't eat cooked food on trains" posters. I guess they meant hot food, but I agree with the sentiment outside of a restaurant car where provided.

New thread to continue this:

Eating smelly food on trains

From this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-to-london-could-it-work.258577/page-4#post-6529611 Came to make a pie gag. Very subjective stuff - chips are delicious to me. Can't bear the smell of an egg sandwich. Either no food or all is welcome. The amenities of Piccadilly...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[A S Leib]

And I think northerners would far value cheaper London trips than almost anything else. Certainly people in Liverpool do not ever need to go to Hull at any scale - or Bradford to Sheffield, or other sacred cows this board goes on about. London is the capital, economic hub and also leisure/tourism/culture hub - everyone should have good access to it. As for cheaper / distance, that's for the market, in theory - to determine.

I had some problems installing the ORR origin / destination matrix and somebody else might be able to add more, but whilst Euston was the single most common destination from either Manchester Piccadilly (803,487 journeys) or Manchester Victoria, Sheffield, Huddersfield, Leeds, York and Liverpool Lime Street collectively accounted for close to 1.5 mn. Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Victoria, Leeds, York, Newcastle and Sheffield come to 830,000 from Liverpool Lime Street, against 490,000 from London.

As for having good access to London's leisure, touristic and cultural attractions – not, of course, that culture is non-existent outside of London – being further away from that's a trade-off if, say, you want substantially lower rent.

Incidentally, Sheffield – Bradford and Halifax was at ~16,000 journeys per year; considerably more than Bolton, Walsall, Blackburn or Barrow to Euston, although I don't know if that accounts for people buying flexible tickets to Lancaster, Preston, Manchester, Wigan or Birmingham and advance tickets from there.

 

[Howardh]

I had some problems installing the ORR origin / destination matrix and somebody else might be able to add more, but whilst Euston was the single most common destination from either Manchester Piccadilly (803,487 journeys) or Manchester Victoria, Sheffield, Huddersfield, Leeds, York and Liverpool Lime Street collectively accounted for close to 1.5 mn. Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Victoria, Leeds, York, Newcastle and Sheffield come to 830,000 from Liverpool Lime Street, against 490,000 from London.

As for having good access to London's leisure, touristic and cultural attractions – not, of course, that culture is non-existent outside of London – being further away from that's a trade-off if, say, you want substantially lower rent.

Incidentally, Sheffield – Bradford and Halifax was at ~16,000 journeys per year; considerably more than Bolton, Walsall, Blackburn or Barrow to Euston, although I don't know if that accounts for people buying flexible tickets to Lancaster, Preston, Manchester, Wigan or Birmingham and advance tickets from there.

If one buys a ticket from Bolton to Euston; on many occasions - not always though - it would be more expensive than Bolton > Manchester (or Wigan) then Manchester/Wigan > London. I've found that Bolton > Leeds is almost always much more expensive than Manchester > Leeds and a separate Bolton > Manchester ticket; and that's for day returns, not specific advances.

One of the peculiarities of our renowned ticketing systems, or just that different companies are involved?

 

[WibbleWobble]

And they don't sell pie baps in Manchester!

Pie BAP?!?! That's a swear term in Wigan - you'd be hounded out of the store!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Pie BAP?!?! That's a swear term in Wigan - you'd be hounded out of the store!

"Pie barm", isn't it, before we go too far off topic.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Tbh I think that an LNR extension to Manchester like the LNR to Liverpool would complement quite well and do what cross country aren't seemingly able to do in providing much capacity between Birmingham and Manchester, which could lead to future connections/ semi fast LNR to London from Crewe.

Although I think in terms of competition of rail services between London and Manchester serving different price points an EMR service to Manchester from london (as an extension of a sheffield service for example) may serve well as a chiltern analouge had between birmingham and london. It connects regions previously not having a 1 seat ride, and depending on the timing and cost of service it provides a genuine alternative for travellers from london to manchester and inbetween.

Layering up a slower speed LNR, mid speed EMR and higher speed Avanti services between London and Manchester (like seen at Birmingham) I think could be potentially feasible and moviates all operators (including cross country) to improve their services.

 

[The Planner]

Tbh I think that an LNR extension to Manchester like the LNR to Liverpool would complement quite well and do what cross country aren't seemingly able to do in providing much capacity between Birmingham and Manchester, which could lead to future connections/ semi fast LNR to London from Crewe.

Although I think in terms of competition of rail services between London and Manchester serving different price points an EMR service to Manchester from london (as an extension of a sheffield service for example) may serve well as a chiltern analouge had between birmingham and london. It connects regions previously not having a 1 seat ride, and depending on the timing and cost of service it provides a genuine alternative for travellers from london to manchester and inbetween.

Layering up a slower speed LNR, mid speed EMR and higher speed Avanti services between London and Manchester (like seen at Birmingham) I think could be potentially feasible and moviates all operators (including cross country) to improve their services.

The EMR would be 3 hours long though, I doubt it would beat an extended LNWR Crewe service by more than a few minutes, and it might not even do that. That service is only 2 hrs 10 from Euston to Crewe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tbh I think that an LNR extension to Manchester like the LNR to Liverpool would complement quite well and do what cross country aren't seemingly able to do in providing much capacity between Birmingham and Manchester, which could lead to future connections/ semi fast LNR to London from Crewe.

Although I think in terms of competition of rail services between London and Manchester serving different price points an EMR service to Manchester from london (as an extension of a sheffield service for example) may serve well as a chiltern analouge had between birmingham and london. It connects regions previously not having a 1 seat ride, and depending on the timing and cost of service it provides a genuine alternative for travellers from london to manchester and inbetween.

Layering up a slower speed LNR, mid speed EMR and higher speed Avanti services between London and Manchester (like seen at Birmingham) I think could be potentially feasible and moviates all operators (including cross country) to improve their services.

Bit confused what the relevance of XC is here as these wouldn't run via Birmingham.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Bit confused what the relevance of XC is here as these wouldn't run via Birmingham.

Yeah that was moreso i was thinking that LNR to Manchester would complement/compete with the cross-country between Manchester and Birmingham

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah that was moreso i was thinking that LNR to Manchester would complement/compete with the cross-country between Manchester and Birmingham

It wouldn't unless you mean for journeys between Crewe and Manchester only.

Extending the LNR Birminghams is off the agenda - it was tried in 2019 and was absolutely disastrous to punctuality and reliability - the service was made unusable by it. New St is too much like Castlefield in delay terms for it to work well.

 

[cle]

As for having good access to London's leisure, touristic and cultural attractions – not, of course, that culture is non-existent outside of London – being further away from that's a trade-off if, say, you want substantially lower rent.

Yes of course, I'm not saying that either. But London does have a far wider and quirkier selection and more 'firsts' and global things, big travelling art exhbitions, Broadway shows etc. Elsewhere does skew more mainstream.

I had some problems installing the ORR origin / destination matrix and somebody else might be able to add more, but whilst Euston was the single most common destination from either Manchester Piccadilly (803,487 journeys) or Manchester Victoria, Sheffield, Huddersfield, Leeds, York and Liverpool Lime Street collectively accounted for close to 1.5 mn. Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Victoria, Leeds, York, Newcastle and Sheffield come to 830,000 from Liverpool Lime Street, against 490,000 from London.

I'm not sure about this. Liverpool to Sheffield and Liverpool to York/Newcastle are entirely different lines and service groups. In some cases with multiple options (CLC/Chat Moss/Calder). Manchester too.

And the numbers are frankly padded by Liverpool-Manchester demand, I'm sure far larger than the other pairs (out of Liverpool). Not sure which is busiest out of Manchester: Leeds, Liverpool or maybe even Huddersfield?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

But why can you see sense in LNR extending the Crewe service? By saying extending it to Manchester or Liverpool means that there isn’t actually a definitive reason to extend it other than an allergy to the buffer stops at Crewe.

Because the Liverpool-Birmingham train is almost always equal Euston/New St passengers, so there is clearly a big enough market to terminate there.

I don't doubt if LNRW could run a Liv to Euston or a Manchester to Euston it would be extremely popular. Both for short and long distance.

Crewe is a massive interchange hub rather than a destination in itself, so why should long distance service terminate there only for passengers to have to wait for another service?

It's why the Dec timetable change is a slap in the face to passengers between Crewe and Stoke, I'd say at least 80% of passengers will now have to change trains or catch the single XC train to get to their intended destination whereas currently they do not (Crewe-New St changing to Crewe-Stafford)

It wouldn't unless you mean for journeys between Crewe and Manchester only.

Extending the LNR Birminghams is off the agenda - it was tried in 2019 and was absolutely disastrous to punctuality and reliability - the service was made unusable by it. New St is too much like Castlefield in delay terms for it to work well.

Unless they were Trent only, no New St

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Crewe is a massive interchange hub rather than a destination in itself, so why should long distance service terminate there only for passengers to have to wait for another service?

Because it (Crewe) is, as you say, an interchange hub, and you can't always expect there to be direct trains from everywhere to everywhere?!

 

[yorksrob]

I really do like the idea of Northern teaming up with LNWR to provide a cheap walk on ticket. It would generate revenue for both companies.

 

[A S Leib]

Because it (Crewe) is, as you say, an interchange hub, and you can't always expect there to be direct trains from everywhere to everywhere?!

Even if you rule out reversing trains at Crewe, you'd have to have at least sixteen trains per hour (Shrewsbury, Birmingham, Trent Valley / London and Derby to Chester, Liverpool, Warrington and Manchester) through Crewe to have one train per hour between each of the main directions from Crewe without changing.

 

[317 forever]

I know FNW tried a London service & failed but this was planned poorly (DMU, truncated route etc) and was in a different era. In this current time of cheap advance tickets and people wanting to save as much as they can on rail journeys, could Northern make a Manchester-London service viable? If so and with perhaps 3 trains per day each way operated with 6-car 331s, how does this look as a route?

Manchester Oxford Road/Victoria
Newton-le-Willows
Crewe
Northampton
Bletchley
Bushey
London Euston/Marylebone

Would this strike a good balance between a reasonable journey time, without abstracting fares from other TOCs?

Maybe instead the LNWR service from London Euston to Crewe could be extended to Manchester Victoria via Newton-le-Willows.

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe instead the LNWR service from London Euston to Crewe could be extended to Manchester Victoria via Newton-le-Willows.

It doesn't take away the issue that there isn't track capacity for that. In particular, it would have to go through the two track north of Winsford, and the Salford area.

What would be sacrificed to make way?

(It would solve the apparent issue of Hartford and Warrington not having a direct connection, if that were seen as an issue.)

 

[Philip]

If Northern can't start something like this, then LNR really need to look at extending their London-Crewe semi-fast service to Manchester, with at least every other service continuing to Preston via Bolton.

The services continuing beyond Manchester should run non-stop Wilmslow-Manchester Oxford Road via Styal (not calling at Piccadilly because of the platform 13/14 issue), then call at Salford Crescent, Bolton, Chorley, Buckshaw Parkway & Preston.

All of these stations would provide a decent amount of custom for a London service with cheap fares, and new direct connections to Wilmslow, Crewe & Stafford would also be useful.

This way, Avanti wouldn't need to consider extending some of their own services to Bolton & beyond.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If Northern can't start something like this, then LNR really need to look at extending their London-Crewe semi-fast service to Manchester, with at least every other service continuing to Preston via Bolton.

The services continuing beyond Manchester should run non-stop Wilmslow-Manchester Oxford Road via Styal (not calling at Piccadilly because of the platform 13/14 issue), then call at Salford Crescent, Bolton, Chorley, Buckshaw Parkway & Preston.

All of these stations would provide a decent amount of custom for a London service with cheap fares, and new direct connections to Wilmslow, Crewe & Stafford would also be useful.

This way, Avanti wouldn't need to consider extending some of their own services to Bolton & beyond.

LNWR have looked at multiple extra services, namely taking the Manchester Airport route and the Blackpool service. I'd say going to Manchester or Bolton is probably never going to happen as having 4 TOCs go that way is too many really and can't see Northern or TfW dropping their services

 

[Bald Rick]

This way, Avanti wouldn't need to consider extending some of their own services to Bolton & beyond.

Avanti are not considering that.