NXEC plans to barrier stations

[theblackwatch]

So you got through a temp barrier ...so what! hundreds of people do every day, doesn't make it right!

What was the right thing to do - not travel! You appear not to have answered my question, so I will repeat it in bold for your benefit:

So what will happen in the instance I highlighted last week, where York ticket office is unable to sell a ticket for the train I was travelling on? The only place I was able to buy it was on the train!

 

[paul1609]

Realistically if York was fully barriered, I reckon WC or whoever operates the Scarborough Express would make arrangements to sell on the day tickets on the concourse. I dont think that the operation of special trains is NXECs target.
A lot of special trains run to Brighton during a year and I've never heard of any problems there.

 

[PhilipW]

I enclose a link to the August 26 edition of 'Rail Manager' which has a very informative article on barriers at platforms (Page 9).

In particular it asks if the rail companies are treating us as valued customers or just as numbers to be processed.

I doubt if barriers are ever all right or ever all wrong. A little bit of common sense in each situation always helps. You can never regulate or legislate for "common sense" - you just have it or you don't.

http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/rm/160/RMAN_160.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Correction - the article starts on Page 8

 

[upyourjunction]

Realistically if York was fully barriered, I reckon WC or whoever operates the Scarborough Express would make arrangements to sell on the day tickets on the concourse. I dont think that the operation of special trains is NXECs target.
A lot of special trains run to Brighton during a year and I've never heard of any problems there.

Thankyou, you've answered the blackwatch's question for me, it only needs common sense dosen't it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Alleged financial position? Is this NXEC are struggling as GNER did to repay the £1.4bn wad to DafT?

Nat EX trains division reports a passenger growth of 9% & pre tax profits of£39.6 million, East Coast has seen revenue growth of 11%, hardly struggling.

 

[yorkie]

Realistically if York was fully barriered, I reckon WC or whoever operates the Scarborough Express would make arrangements to sell on the day tickets on the concourse. I dont think that the operation of special trains is NXECs target.
A lot of special trains run to Brighton during a year and I've never heard of any problems there.

There is no requirement for all charter operators to add additional costs selling tickets at all stations where they call, and upyourjunction is totally wrong to suggest this is "common sense" - clearly, he has none.

PhilipW - that's an excellent article, and one that people like upyourjunction should read.

 

[upyourjunction]

There is no requirement for all charter operators to add additional costs selling tickets at all stations where they call, and upyourjunction is totally wrong to suggest this is "common sense" - clearly, he has none.

PhilipW - that's an excellent article, and one that people like upyourjunction should read.

Unlike you my info is gleaned from working on the Railways, not just idle speculation!

 

[yorkie]

Unlike you my info is gleaned from working on the Railways, not just idle speculation!

That article is "idle speculation" is it? Go and write one of your own then, and we'll see which is better :roll:

 

[upyourjunction]

That article is "idle speculation" is it? Go and write one of your own then, and we'll see which is better :roll:

Its an article on the problems of automated barriers with some valid points...so what is your point?
Its you that spouts idle speculation on an issue that in fact you know very little about!

 

[theblackwatch]

Thankyou, you've answered the blackwatch's question for me, it only needs common sense dosen't it.

I can't see WCRC employing someone to stand on York concourse on the chance that a few people are going to turn up and 'pay on the day' for an evening spin behind a kettle. Leeds is fully barriered (not automatic though), and WCRC don't have anyone there either. Again, the time I did the SSE from there, I just told the staff that train I was going for.

 

[PhilipW]

There is also an article on barriers in the current edition of 'Rail' Magazine (Issue 599 : Aug 27 - Sep 9) by Christian Wolmar (Page 29).

The article deals with the controversial plans by East Midland Trains to install barriers at Sheffield.

Just to quote one paragraph

"The plan for barriers was part of the franchise bid for East Midland Trains but Stagecoach had little idea of the hornets' nest it was stirring by putting the idea in the bid. Now however it has become a franchise commitment, set in stone, which means that the Department of Transport expects it to be carried out".

The article ends by Christian Wolmar urging that common sense steps in and that Stagecoach dig themselves out of this mess, drop the plan and restore the company's good name in the Steel city.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I guess most of you will remember that when GNER bid for their renewal of the ECML franchise in early 2005, their bid included the installation of ticket barriers in Peterborough, Durham and Newcastle. (Not York).

I clearly recall GNER staff puzzling over how it could be installed and operated effectively then. They hadn't been consulted. (surprised?). Seems that even 3 or 4 years later, still no one has come up with an effective and practical solution to make it work?

 

[BOSCH]

I guess most of you will remember that when GNER bid for their renewal of the ECML franchise in early 2005, their bid included the installation of ticket barriers in Peterborough, Durham and Newcastle. (Not York).

I clearly recall GNER staff puzzling over how it could be installed and operated effectively then. They hadn't been consulted. (surprised?). Seems that even 3 or 4 years later, still no one has come up with an effective and practical solution to make it work?

Speaking to a member of nxec management earlier this evening,the barriers are indeed coming to Newcastle,they showed me exactly where they will be and what parts of the station will be blocked off permanently !:???:

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Interesting!

I shouldn't ask you to divulge who you spoke to nor details of where the barriers will be on here Bosch, tho I WOULD like to know! But we CAN start to consider which uses of Newcastle station will be off limits to non-ticket holders. (eg when helping pass with heavy luggage over the bridge or thru the lifts and underground passage).

Most of the posts here relate to tickets, though. Are there any services whose tix might not be available from the counter? Its the sudden long queues that create the problem of wanting to pay on-board IMO.

Another angle to the revenue aspect of this is the Leeds experience that when the barriers were installed there, the number of pax asking for a single Leeds-Bently rose phenomenaly. Single fare: 50p.
Similarly, a single to Newcastle from Manors is £1. So who else here expects statistics to show an increase in travel between Manors and Newcastle Central once the barriers are installed?

 

[BOSCH]

Interesting!

I shouldn't ask you to divulge who you spoke to nor details of where the barriers will be on here Bosch, tho I WOULD like to know! But we CAN start to consider which uses of Newcastle station will be off limits to non-ticket holders. (eg when helping pass with heavy luggage over the bridge or thru the lifts and underground passage).

Most of the posts here relate to tickets, though. Are there any services whose tix might not be available from the counter? Its the sudden long queues that create the problem of wanting to pay on-board IMO.

Another angle to the revenue aspect of this is the Leeds experience that when the barriers were installed there, the number of pax asking for a single Leeds-Bently rose phenomenaly. Single fare: 50p.
Similarly, a single to Newcastle from Manors is £1. So who else here expects statistics to show an increase in travel between Manors and Newcastle Central once the barriers are installed?

AFAIAA nothing stops at manors dave,metro is the "train" of choice !!

 

[Tom C]

AFAIAA nothing stops at manors dave,metro is the "train" of choice !!

Nothing may stop there but you can still buy a ticket to Manors and indeed I am sure that the ticket numbers will go through the roof.

That said it is exactly the same at every other barrier. How many people do you think buy a ticket from Victoria to Battersea Park, Paddington to Acton Mainline or London Bridge to New Cross/South Bermondsey?. Its effective on train revenue protection which stamps this sort of thing out so I hope that NXEC doesn't shoot itself in the foot by reducing the number of train checks. Its no good getting a quid from a fare from Newcastle to Manors when that person may of not bought a ticket, got on board a NXEC train and be stopped for a SDS to Kings Cross for example.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Its effective on train revenue protection which stamps this sort of thing out so I hope that NXEC doesn't shoot itself in the foot by reducing the number of train checks. Its no good getting a quid from a fare from Newcastle to Manors when that person may of not bought a ticket, got on board a NXEC train and be stopped for a SDS to Kings Cross for example.

Exactly!

I'm willing to admit that my ability to wander around the concourse has been a luxury which I can do without - helping passengers with luggage or infirmity is not.
And have NXEC really learnt from experiences elsewhere? Do they understand that the sale of extra local tickets for long distance travel once on-board staff are reduced will result in a net loss? Or do they use a different type of calculator from us?

And talking of money, did you notice this statement from Arriva this week: "Operating profit at its UK rail division rose significantly to 14.8 million pounds from 1.1 million, it said, reflecting the first full contribution from the CrossCountry franchise."

 

[yorkie]

Tom C, I agree with you, but that is exactly what they are doing! They are re-deploying staff who currently check NXEC tickets are valid on NXEC trains and instead making sure that pax at NCL have tickets to places like Manors, and at York to Poppleton, and at Doncaster to Bentley, and so on.

NXEC will get a bit more revenue from commission for sure, but it's gonna be peanuts compared to what they are losing out on.

Plus they are inconveniencing a great many people.

 

[Waverley125]

Grantham you can go through the cafe, same at Peterborough. Installing barriers is really quite pointless, as Grantham is a small station (my local) with few passengers on NXEC trains, while HT & EMT both do very good ticket checks (the TTI comes through within 3 minutes of departure on the Liverpool/Norwich run). At Peterborough the reverse is the problem-only two double doors to the platform (which usually have human attendants) and a very overcrowded station. and LKX is pointless since the stoppers run out of Moorgate, which is already barriered. Leeds is the only station i can think of where barriers should go in, and there are already human booths at platform access.

 

[me123]

I won't comment on York station; I'll be using it tomorrow so I'll get back to you on that. What I can say is that I'm all for ticket barriers. In Scotland, we have barried quite a few stations as I'm sure you all know. I've never had a problem at Queen Street or Aberdeen stations, where the barriers are simple to use and there's always an attendent on duty for those who are baffled by the machines. In Edinburgh, the limited barriers also work quite well although I imagine they could be quite chaotic at some times.

The worst I've seen so far is Ayr. The small number of barriers, the small concourse area and general lack of room all suggest that they don't work. Sure, they protect some revenue, but I would certainly not like to be there for the morning rush hour! Maybe they work better than I think they do, but I'm convinced that they're a bit flawed. And from what I remember of York station, I can see why there may be problems there too.

 

[P156KWJ]

I think Network Rail should install them at Birmingham New Street, as the human barriers sometimes don't work. I've managed to get throuh many times without my ticket being examined. And I am also in favour of penalty fare areas being more widespread. They would be useful around the whole of the midlands and north-west, and south-east, and maybe tougher penalties, as I believe this discourages ticketless travel. I know I'd much rather pay for my ticket that a fine. If they were used around Nottingham and Lincoln, they should remove the barriers at the latter, as they are dangerous and lack purpose.

 

[me123]

Actually, at GLC, the human barriers actually work quite well. You couldn't put automatic barriers in place because of both time and space. Some humans issue tickets separately, and the barrier staff themselves only need to check the date and the origin station.

The problem there is... what's to stop a passenger from (say) Kilwinning to say he didn't get on at Johnstone?

 

[P156KWJ]

another downeer with them. You could also do that here. I went from Birmingham-Nottingham and the guard didn't check my ticket! I could quite easily have said I've just come from Beeston hock: a big difference in price!

 

[me123]

I today showed a wrong ticket (by accident) on a Milngavie train. I did have the correct ticket in my wallet, but it shows how little anyone actually cares; especially on more local trains. Similarly, on outbound Whifflet trains, (From Glasgow), the guard makes one trip through the train then hides in the back cab. You can easily get off at any station en route with a ticket for Carmyle (the first station from Central).

NXEC and Virgin, in my experience, tend to be a bit more thorough with ticketing.

 

[will1337]

I showed a One Day Travelcard on an NXEA service back from Norwich while holding a valid ticket and it wasn't noticed. In my experience Northern are by far best at checking tickets and with other TOCs a lot more attention is given in more rural areas, where the staff tend to be more enthusiastic and it's usually a lot less busy.

 

[djw1981]

EDB works quite well, because most of the flow is on one direction. Thus normally the outer 2 gates on each bank is set 'against the flow' and the others go with the flow.

Stirling also works ok, but the staff there are the problem as they tend to sit in their cabin instead of being on the gateline, and thus any complications take longer to sort out. Even with only 3 gates, the maximum delay (on arrival of a peak train from Glasgow) was 60 seconds.

 

[Waverley125]

agreed, Northern are very good. I had a standard open return from Leeds-Warrington Central, and came back via Victoria on a Northern Rail Leeds-Manchester Victoria train. The guard (who it turned out was a guy I'd had a couple of times before) told me that there was a direct train, and that strictly i should use that. He was fine, however, when i explained i had to collect some house keys from a mate who works near the prison.

 

[PhilipW]

With any 'Return' ticket I believe that it quite valid to break your journey on the return leg.

How to ticket barriers deal with this as you will have to both Exit and Enter at the Intermediate station. I trust the machine will not just keep the ticket.

 

[First class]

I actually find Northern quite poor at checking tickets in Merseyside.

On Liverpool-Blackpool North services, your ticket won't be checked until around Wigan, possibly Preston. On the final services of the day, nobody comes at all.

Liverpool-Wigan, possibly checked between Liverpool & Huyton and then again at St. Helens Central, but only one trip of the train.

Manchester Airport are ok...

Liverpool - Ellesmere Port via Warrington, unlikely to get checked until Warrington BQ. Liv-WBQ trains, ticket possibly checked around Huyton.

All Northern trains... They do have barriers at Lime Street, but there is usually a good 40/50 people waiting to get through, and generally you could show them what you like...

 

[thelem]

maybe tougher penalties, as I believe this discourages ticketless travel. I know I'd much rather pay for my ticket that a fine.

I agree. I have a season ticket between Brighton and Burgess Hill, and probably get checked once or twice a month (there are barriers at Brighton, but by increasing my 30 minute journey, including walking, to a 40 minute journey from Preston Park I could avoid them).

My ticket costs £90/month, but by just paying the £20 penalty fare when challenged I could reduce that to about £30 per month. How is that sensible?

 

[djw1981]

Does multiple penalty fares not result in prosecution? I know that the Tyne & Wear Metro operate sucha policy. You are then given a criminal record and a state fine.