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NXEC plans to barrier stations

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thelem

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I today showed a wrong ticket (by accident) on a Milngavie train. I did have the correct ticket in my wallet, but it shows how little anyone actually cares; especially on more local trains.

I always think that when the same guard wanders down a train more than once. Can he really remember whose tickets he has checked, or is he just relying on those whose tickets he hasn't checked (and have valid tickets) to show them?

Would it not be much more effective to do an hourly check of all tickets, possibly with more than once inspector?
 
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djw1981

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GNER used to do a full ticket inspection after a crew change, so 2 or 3 inspections was not uncommon. Despite barriers, FSR staff do a full inspection upon departure from GLQ because there is a very very very easy way to avoid paying there....
 

Mojo

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I think Network Rail should install them at Birmingham New Street, as the human barriers sometimes don't work. I've managed to get throuh many times without my ticket being examined. And I am also in favour of penalty fare areas being more widespread. They would be useful around the whole of the midlands and north-west, and south-east, and maybe tougher penalties, as I believe this discourages ticketless travel. I know I'd much rather pay for my ticket that a fine. If they were used around Nottingham and Lincoln, they should remove the barriers at the latter, as they are dangerous and lack purpose.

As part of the West Midlands franchise, there are to be barriers at Birmingham New Street (Network Rail); Birmingham Snow Hill, University & Five Ways (London Midland); and Birmingham Moor Street (Chiltern Railways). I don't know how staffing arrangements will work - the current manual checks at New Street & Snow Hill are LM staff and at Moor Street are CH staff - but the barriers are in the WM franchise agreement.

I believe that one of the reasons it hasn't been done sooner is due to WMPTE ticketing arrangements - many of the tickets issued are not compatible with ticket barriers. I believe similar problems exist (or used to exist) in other PTE areas also, in part caused because of the large number of non-station locations to buy your multimodal PTE ticket.
 

me123

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As per barriers at York... welll I've just been there, and I really can't see how they'd work. I can see how some unmanned barriers to the NYMR would be usable, though.

The main station concourse would require so many barriers, however, that I cannot see that it is even worthwhile for NXEC. I'd suggest individual barriers for platforms too, but again I cannot see how that would work :?
 
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As per barriers at York... welll I've just been there, and I really can't see how they'd work. I can see how some unmanned barriers to the NYMR would be usable, though.

The main station concourse would require so many barriers, however, that I cannot see that it is even worthwhile for NXEC. I'd suggest individual barriers for platforms too, but again I cannot see how that would work :?

The thing is, they will make it work, there were barriers there before the "open station concept" in the 80's & NEXEC seem to want them back.
 

laseandre

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GNER used to do a full ticket inspection after a crew change, so 2 or 3 inspections was not uncommon. Despite barriers, FSR staff do a full inspection upon departure from GLQ because there is a very very very easy way to avoid paying there....
Would that involve the lifts?
 

me123

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Yes: North Hanover St. has, but is not always manned. This is well signposted, however, at the "East Stairs" in Queen Street LL.
 

djw1981

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Yeah but you get on at High St, miss the ticket inspection, up the lift at Queen St (track side of barriers), jump on the train you want...... hope for an inspection either a) only after your destination station, or b) ask for one from the last station stop.

I have never used this and I most certainly condem it, and I guess it is now many fewer cases than before, but it explains why FSR do a full ticket inspection as well as having barriers.

You could also 'cheat' and buy an Ashfield-Glasgow QS ticket, not go through the barrier then get on an Edinburgh train to Falkirk High. Again barriers at the destination station have reduced this abuse of the system. This is/was done mostly by people changing trains at Glasgow QS.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes: North Hanover St. has, but is not always manned. This is well signposted, however, at the "East Stairs" in Queen Street LL.

If you jump these barriers, then expect to be met on the platform by a few guys from the 'west stairs' barriers who will escort you upstairs to buy a ticket. It is a real PIS given that many zonecards don;t open the barriers due to SPT intransigence.
 

me123

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Of course; I knew there were cameras there. They're quite noticable!
 
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Manchester Victoria has the easiest to avoid barriers. Arrive on Platforms 3-6 up the steps take a left and exit via the car park peace of cake mind you every time I've done this I've waived my train ticket at the cctv camera to prove i have a ticket and its a common way of avoiding tickets as i know a few that do it..
 

Techniquest

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Just spent ages going through this thread, so many good points to reply to, but I'll add my two-penneth on the subject of gates from a recent (16th August 2008) experience at Paddington. Well, another older one first...

Now, a couple of years ago I nearly flipped when I wasn't allowed back on the platform after changing my mind when reaching my train and discovering I needed some drinks for the long journey. This was when Valentas were still running but were starting to become an endangered species. I returned to the barrier and told him I was just off to get a drink. Upon my return, I went back to the barrier to get on the Carmarthen train (the pair of Valentas being on this) and changing at Reading. That was the plan and I was perfectly valid to do so on my Saver Return of London Terminals to Hereford, Route Evesham. I wanted the Valentas, who wouldn't?!

I don't think I had the same gentleman on the barrier when I returned and I swear I'm not trying to be racist or nowt, but this gentleman was not of British origin and could hardly understand what I was saying, let alone understand the complex ticketing rules. Either way, he insisted I went to platform 10 for the 1242 to Hereford. No way would he accept that I was wanted to get the Carmarthen train and change at Reading. To him, this was not allowed. When it is perfectly valid, I don't know how he could say no, but as I say he couldn't understand most of what I was saying anyway. I give up after a few minutes and go to platform 10. I was not aware at the time that it was the first Sunday of booked 180s on this train, which had seen HSTs on it for so long I assumed that would be the same. My jaw hit the floor and I nearly dropped my bags too, I was so angry I'd have to suffer that pile of junk all the way home.

What made that journey worse was that I had been unable to get anything I wanted to drink so had returned with just some food for lunch. What I didn't know until we left and I had upgraded to First Class was that there was no catering staff on so we would have no complimentary stuff. London to Hereford, roughly 3.25 hours, without drinks? I have two fingers to raise to that idea. Thankfully we had a few minutes at Reading so I raced off the train into the shop on platform 4 and forked out a lot for a bottle of Diet Coke. £1.25 is a lot of money for those things, but desperate measures...

Quite simply it was a horrible end to a brilliant 21st birthday bash around London. We arrived back late (surprise surprise) and the journey was horribly long and boring. Since then I've had a special hate for barriers, the FGW staff who work on them and 180s. No, it's not a hate, it's a fiery passion against those things much akin to my same fiery hatred of 222s and 442s.

Right, and now what I was originally going to say. On 16th August 2008 I was awaiting the 2130 Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads. I knew which platform it should be (2 or 3 I narrowed it down to in the end), so waited by the barriers. No way was I waiting amongst the veg. So eventually it comes on the screen. My AP fare doesn't work in the barriers (surprise surprise, they NEVER work), so I go to the manual gate. The FGW man is moaning at someone that was moaning about not being allowed through. This is after the platform had been announced with the FGW man insisting that the passenger awaits the announcement. During this time it had been put on the screen with dozens going through the barrier, so I had lost my place to go through the barriers quickly. A manual announcement is being made but the FGW man is more interested in arguing! Eventually he gives up with the passenger, then checks my ticket which I had got out ready. He insists on checking my reservation (the first time I've seen that on the barriers) which delayed me even more. By now there was about 4 dozen passengers on the platform with the other lot already in their seats and another few dozen coming up behind me. Eventually he reads it three times, why I don't know, then lets me on. I really wanted to say to him "about bloody time", but thought better of it. He even asked to see my railcard. Now I had never seen anyone so desperate before. Still, I found my seat in coach A where I was booked and plugged everything in.

My beef with the gentleman is that it was already cutting it thin to get everyone on in time, whilst he was purely focused on triple-checking everyone's ticket that went to the manual barrier. If I have my way, I'll never have an AP to go through a barrier again, they're a bugger to deal with. I have two fingers to raise to barriers, they drive me nuts.

Don't get me wrong, they are useful to stop fare evasion or at least reduce it. What gets on my nerves just as much though are the barriers at Clapham Junction. Not once have I passed my travelcard through one of them without it telling me to seek assistance. And as soon as you hit the manual gate they glare at you something rotten as if you're on an invalid ticket or trying to dodge the fare. When you've paid a lot of money for a ticket it makes me even angrier that does. They're always reluctant to give you your ticket back too, once I had to ask for it back. She looked at me as if I had scared the living daylights out of her! :shock:

So you might be under the impression I hate barriers. You would be totally correct. My experiences above, in my eyes, will be repeated many times on these stations to be barriered and I predict a riot when the wires go down on the ECML, not to mention when people's tickets don't work. The evil looks you get from the staff make me want to bellow at them something rotten sometimes...

I'm not an angry man, honest guv, but I just hate the barriers not liking me!
 

furryfeet

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has anyone done an analysis of whether barriers actually pay for themselves ?

i.e ( revenuegained - ( costofinstall + costofmanningthebarriers + revenuelostduetoputtingoffpassengers )

as suggested in the article on page 10 of "todays railways" issue 86
 

90019

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Despite barriers, FSR staff do a full inspection upon departure from GLQ because there is a very very very easy way to avoid paying there....

At Waverley, it's not as easy as it was to get onto the FSR platforms (you could just walk round to platform 19 and go through one of the gaps, but they've been fenced off now) but you can still go round the fence at the top of platform 11, although, there are a fair few CCTV cameras there.
 

Bayum

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has anyone done an analysis of whether barriers actually pay for themselves ?

i.e ( revenuegained - ( costofinstall + costofmanningthebarriers + revenuelostduetoputtingoffpassengers )

as suggested in the article on page 10 of "todays railways" issue 86

Think they have...

Otherwise they wouldn't suggest putting them in place to begin with...

I guess it's kinda like ECT - costs a bomb to install, but when used etc - it uses low amounts of electricity, and is helpful for patients

I guess the barriers dont really use that much electricity, and its just the installation of them that costs.
 

tbtc

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has anyone done an analysis of whether barriers actually pay for themselves ?

i.e ( revenuegained - ( costofinstall + costofmanningthebarriers + revenuelostduetoputtingoffpassengers )

There's people needed to "man" the barriers, but it means you can use fewer staff on the trains.

Plus, there's also the "antisocial" element - beggars etc can't just walk onto the platorms any more.

Also, even if the "fare dodgers" don't use the train any more (so don't pay anything) it means more seats/ space for those of us who *do* pay.
 

Mojo

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Also, even if the "fare dodgers" don't use the train any more (so don't pay anything) it means more seats/ space for those of us who *do* pay.
I still think there may be an argument that they put people off. It's likely because of an an incident such as one when someone may come and visit me in Birmingham and need help getting on/off the train from me, however the ticket barrier staff refuse to let me through and I can't get a platform ticket, meaning there is a huge problem in getting on/off the train and to the concourse. As a result, the person will always drive in future when coming with the baby. I could also think that they may put people off if there is a queue to leave/enter the station because of insufficient barriers.

It may not happen very often though, but I still think it does happen.
 

theblackwatch

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There's people needed to "man" the barriers, but it means you can use fewer staff on the trains.

Plus, there's also the "antisocial" element - beggars etc can't just walk onto the platorms any more.

So because there are fewer staff on trains, the beggars (and others who behave in an antisocial manner) can travel around on them instead! :|
 

Mojo

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I've always wondered why many stations that have barriers leave them open or unmanned in the evenings and at night. Are people less likely to faredodge or cause trouble on the stations then? I'd say they were more likely...
 

Mintona

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I've always wondered why many stations that have barriers leave them open or unmanned in the evenings and at night. Are people less likely to faredodge or cause trouble on the stations then? I'd say they were more likely...

Not enough staff to cover later on? We have a barrier from about 6am til 12.30pm, but we don't get anyone for the evening peak, they are all at Piccadilly, or Salford Crescent usually. Then they all go to Piccadilly til about 9, so nowhere else has barriers.
 

Mojo

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Not enough staff to cover later on? We have a barrier from about 6am til 12.30pm, but we don't get anyone for the evening peak, they are all at Piccadilly, or Salford Crescent usually. Then they all go to Piccadilly til about 9, so nowhere else has barriers.

Well I can understand that the staff aren't available then, but surely there's more likely to be trouble at night than during the day, isn't there? So why not have staff work evenings rather than during the day?

I know barrier staff at New Street are supposed to work 06.00 - 23.00 during the week so that covers quite a bit of the day, but I think that's quite uncommon for barriers to be staffed that late (maybe outside London).
 

90019

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Well I can understand that the staff aren't available then, but surely there's more likely to be trouble at night than during the day, isn't there? So why not have staff work evenings rather than during the day?

I know barrier staff at New Street are supposed to work 06.00 - 23.00 during the week so that covers quite a bit of the day, but I think that's quite uncommon for barriers to be staffed that late (maybe outside London).

Fewer people travel at night than during the day, and you'll have more people trying to fare dodge during the rush hours than any other time of day.
Generally stations tend to be much quieter at night, menaing that there is much less of a need for barriers, and so there is less point in having barriers working and someone manning them then :)
 

Mintona

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Well I can understand that the staff aren't available then, but surely there's more likely to be trouble at night than during the day, isn't there? So why not have staff work evenings rather than during the day?

More trouble? Maybe. More passengers? Nope. The barriers are there for revenue. So they are more likely to be in use for the peaks when lots of people are travelling through.
 

Mojo

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More trouble? Maybe. More passengers? Nope. The barriers are there for revenue. So they are more likely to be in use for the peaks when lots of people are travelling through.
Is it not the case though that there is a greater likelihood of the passengers at night more unlikely to pay compared to those in the daytime.

The police find people carrying more illegal things at night (drugs, knives, etc.) than they do during the day, even though during the day they can stop people easier.

It could also be the case that people travelling in the peaks are likely to be frequent railway users with tickets, whereas at night perhaps people are more likely to be chancing it.
 

Mintona

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Is it not the case though that there is a greater likelihood of the passengers at night more unlikely to pay compared to those in the daytime.

Yeah, you'd think so wouldn't you.

Just because they travel often, doesn't mean they think they need tickets. As I know all too well now.
 

yorkie

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No way would he accept that I was wanted to get the Carmarthen train and change at Reading. To him, this was not allowed. When it is perfectly valid, I don't know how he could say no, but as I say he couldn't understand most of what I was saying anyway. I give up after a few minutes and go to platform 10. I was not aware at the time that it was the first Sunday of booked 180s on this train, which had seen HSTs on it for so long I assumed that would be the same. My jaw hit the floor and I nearly dropped my bags too, I was so angry I'd have to suffer that pile of junk all the way home.
There's no way I'd accept that. Just go round to the other barriers on the footbridge and that would bypass the jobsworth. Alternatively, demand a manager. If neither were possible as a last resort I'd just say "I have a valid ticket, I am walking through and you can't physically stop me".
 

Techniquest

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There's no way I'd accept that. Just go round to the other barriers on the footbridge and that would bypass the jobsworth. Alternatively, demand a manager. If neither were possible as a last resort I'd just say "I have a valid ticket, I am walking through and you can't physically stop me".

Never occured to me at the time. Too angry I was.

I heard yesterday the barriers on the footbridge at Paddington are so unreliable they'd stopped using them!
 

me123

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I've always wondered why many stations that have barriers leave them open or unmanned in the evenings and at night. Are people less likely to faredodge or cause trouble on the stations then? I'd say they were more likely...

I remember traveling on the 2300 EDB-GLQ about a year ago now. Surprisingly, it was quiet although I imagine that's not always the case! Anyway, we boarded the train on platform 10 (the new platform opposite Platform 11 which has no barriers) which was quite silly IMO considering that there were plenty of trains using Platforms 12-18, plenty of free platforms and one member of staff on duty at the barriers. Anyway, there was no ticket check at any point (despite a guard obviously being onboard the 170) and, upon our 0002 arrival at GLQ (this called all intermediate stations, including Lenzie and Bishopbriggs for some reason) , the barriers were all open! With a team of FSR people watching us walk out of the station.

This means that only passengers joining at Haymarket would have had to pay, as all platforms there are barriered. For a lot of the intermediate stations, particularly the likes of Croy and Lenzie, purchasing facilities are limited just before midnight. If FSR still do this on the late evening services, they'll lose revenue for sure.
 
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