NYMR news and updates.

[30907]

The Autocar and coach that the NYMR is running would seem to be an attempt at that kind of offering, without the necessity for a functioning DMU which the railway no longer seems to have. I do agree that getting a DMU into service would seem a sensible priority.

It's an ingenious way of offering a supplementary service when the full line isn't usable, and with family-friendly activities attached.
£25 day rover for Whitby-Goathland and children free is decent value.

 

[paul1609]

The profit margin on hot drinks is also strong.

I'm afriad Belperpete is right, the whole cost of providing a round of coffees in a cafe, ie premises, utilities, staff are such that its most likely that the heritage railway will be making a loss on the purchase. Secondary spend profitablity is one of the issues facing all the heritage Railways that I talk to. Its why most railways are cutting back shore catering to minimum/ eliminating it all together.

 

[SeanG]

That's interesting about catering potentially not making a profit, I didn't realise that.

Perhaps the railway needs to come up with ideas for increasing the additional revenue. For instance I did see that they offered a hamper to buy with crisps, biscuits, nuts and a drink etc. however I seem to recall this was ludicrously expensive so not sure how many they sold.

 

[scarby]

That is exactly what they used to do back in the 1970s and early '80s....and very popular they were too in my experience. However, they seem to have abandoned the DMUs for such a long time now that they're probably beyond repair.

One of the sets, 101680, which was actually going to be scrapped, has been acquired by Retro Railtours' managing director, James Palmer. I believe it will have some kind of cosmetic restoration for static use. I can't remember the exact details as I read this in Rail Express a couple of months ago.

 

[Iskra]

I'm afriad Belperpete is right, the whole cost of providing a round of coffees in a cafe, ie premises, utilities, staff are such that its most likely that the heritage railway will be making a loss on the purchase. Secondary spend profitablity is one of the issues facing all the heritage Railways that I talk to. Its why most railways are cutting back shore catering to minimum/ eliminating it all together.

I’m sorry but I don’t agree. I have no doubt that is true at some - possibly even many- preserved railways due to cost rises, but the NYMR trains I’ve been on are usually full and 5-7 carriages long; that’s a lot of footfall. The cafe is usually fully occupied and there is always a queue a good while before trains depart, so I think it probably does a decent trade. I suspect it contributes rather than detracts from the operation, even if only marginally. That may change however, if footfall declines alongside the effective price rise and reduction in train services.

 

[paul1609]

I’m sorry but I don’t agree. I have no doubt that is true at some - possibly even many- preserved railways due to cost rises, but the NYMR trains I’ve been on are usually full and 5-7 carriages long; that’s a lot of footfall. The cafe is usually fully occupied and there is always a queue a good while before trains depart, so I think it probably does a decent trade. I suspect it contributes rather than detracts from the operation, even if only marginally. That may change however, if footfall declines alongside the effective price rise and reduction in train services.

To be honest i think that Ive only been in the NYMRs cafe at Grosmont but the problem that the majority of heritage railways have is that their footfall is limited to at best maybe an hour before the departure of a train. This surge of customers requires that you need to have a large premises and multiple members of staff to deal with the queues that only exist for maybe 15 minutes 4 or 5 times a day. If you are paying the catering assistants minimum wage, you will need at least one supervisor/ manager above that. Experience is that returning cutomers quite quickly leave the premises and dont spend on catering.
Obviously there are outlets where the footfall is far larger than the preserved railway. The KVWRs Parcel Office? at Keighley Station is one Ive eaten in recently.
Even if the cafe as a whole can cover its costs, this wont be as a result of customers coming in and buying a round of coffees. Theres a reason why Costa, Starbucks etc. charge £4 to £5 for a premium coffee and hope you will buy a £6 toastie to go with it and thats on a much bigger footfall than is experienced by a heritage railway.

 

[LMS 4F]

I wonder how profitable the shops at the stations are. On a visit last year I was tempted by a model locomotive which could be made to emit smoke. In the shop it was on sale at £40 with limited stock as far as colours available.
The same item on Amazon is £30 with all colours available. I also consider a lot of other stock in the shops is expensive. I realise they want the money and Amazon can and do undercut most other sellers but 25% is a large difference.
I suspect that a lot of the staff are volunteers so those costs are low and they own the stations so items such as rent are not a factor.
Given the costs of Tickets for families how many will have spare money for items from the shops?

 

[paul1609]

I wonder how profitable the shops at the stations are. On a visit last year I was tempted by a model locomotive which could be made to emit smoke. In the shop it was on sale at £40 with limited stock as far as colours available.
The same item on Amazon is £30 with all colours available. I also consider a lot of other stock in the shops is expensive. I realise they want the money and Amazon can and do undercut most other sellers but 25% is a large difference.
I suspect that a lot of the staff are volunteers so those costs are low and they own the stations so items such as rent are not a factor.
Given the costs of Tickets for families how many will have spare money for items from the shops?

Ive never looked at model prices but we stopped selling the majority of railway books at my railway when it became clear that we could buy a lot of the specialist railway books cheaper on Amazon than we could buy them from our book wholesaler. Worst still there was an element of the enthusiast market that started using us as an Amazon showroom where they would come and thumb through the book on our shelves before replacing it , go home and buy it on Amazon. We now largely sell goods targetted at the family and coach trip markets now.

 

[ChrisC]

I completely understand that for financial reasons the NYMR has had to concentrate upon satisfying the visitors who are going to make them the most money. This certainly now seems to be family groups doing one return trip to Whitby and perhaps also retired people doing the same. The railway does not cater very well these days for people like myself who liked to spend a day in the area hopping on and off at intermediate stations using a day rover ticket. For many years I have had holidays in Pickering and always enjoyed a couple of days travelling on the railway, getting off at stations, going for walks and spending money in village pubs and tearooms etc. The local businesses in these villages must be experiencing a fall in customer numbers now that fewer railway passengers are stopping off at intermediate stations.

The last 2 times I have stayed in Pickering I have not used the railway, and have used my car and local buses instead. I don’t want to do a very expensive day trip to Whitby but would rather just spend the day hopping on and off and exploring the areas around the intermediate stations. The last time I tried to do this was about 4 years ago before the recent price rises. I would quite happily pay around £30 for a Pickering to Grosmont day rover. I fully understand that family groups going to Whitby like to sit together around a table but the last time I visited, as a single person, I was frequently being asked if I could move to allow families to sit together.

I‘ve just had to accept that the NYMR is no longer for me. There are plenty of other preserved lines where I can continue to enjoy a leisurely day out pottering about using a day rover. I had great days last year on the Great Central and Severn Valley Railways amongst others.

 

[Notabene]

If I recall correctly, the accounts show over £2M income from catering.
Pickering tea room is often busy and the tables on the platform are occupied, between trains, most of the day. Grosmont is much less busy as most people stay on the train.

 

[ChrisC]

Deleted

 

[Belperpete]

If I recall correctly, the accounts show £4M income from catering activities. That's around 50% of income.

Income is one thing, how much profit did they make?

I completely understand that for financial reasons the NYMR has had to concentrate upon satisfying the visitors who are going to make them the most money. This certainly now seems to be family groups doing one return trip to Whitby and perhaps also retired people doing the same. The railway does not cater very well these days for people like myself who liked to spend a day in the area hopping on and off at intermediate stations using a day rover ticket. For many years I have had holidays in Pickering and always enjoyed a couple of days travelling on the railway, getting off at stations, going for walks and spending money in village pubs and tearooms etc. The local businesses in these villages must be experiencing a fall in customer numbers now that fewer railway passengers are stopping off at intermediate stations.

The problem is that the number of passengers wanting to do this is miniscule, probably less than one percent of the total. It doesn't make commercial sense to cater specially for such traffic.

 

[Iskra]

Income is one thing, how much profit did they make?


The problem is that the number of passengers wanting to do this is miniscule, probably less than one percent of the total. It doesn't make commercial sense to cater specially for such traffic.

It’s probably bigger than you think, especially on the NYMR where there are points of interest/walks/hikes to be done from the intermediate stations as well as holiday accommodation there too. The NYMR risks alienating a reasonable number of people if it continues on its current trajectory.

To be honest i think that Ive only been in the NYMRs cafe at Grosmont but the problem that the majority of heritage railways have is that their footfall is limited to at best maybe an hour before the departure of a train. This surge of customers requires that you need to have a large premises and multiple members of staff to deal with the queues that only exist for maybe 15 minutes 4 or 5 times a day. If you are paying the catering assistants minimum wage, you will need at least one supervisor/ manager above that. Experience is that returning cutomers quite quickly leave the premises and dont spend on catering.
Obviously there are outlets where the footfall is far larger than the preserved railway. The KVWRs Parcel Office? at Keighley Station is one Ive eaten in recently.
Even if the cafe as a whole can cover its costs, this wont be as a result of customers coming in and buying a round of coffees. Theres a reason why Costa, Starbucks etc. charge £4 to £5 for a premium coffee and hope you will buy a £6 toastie to go with it and thats on a much bigger footfall than is experienced by a heritage railway.

The Grosmont one is much quieter than the Pickering one.

I fully understand the challenges of the catering industry

 

[LMS 4F]

It’s probably bigger than you think, especially on the NYMR where there are points of interest/walks/hikes to be done from the intermediate stations as well as holiday accommodation there too. The NYMR risks alienating a reasonable number of people if it continues on its current trajectory.

One of the most popular walks is the rail trail between Goathland and Grosmont, a walk I have done countless times and which gives frequent views of trains at the Grosmont end. However the journey from Grosmont is a steep uphill pull from Beckhole, where the pub is to be recommended, so walk downhill, train back up the hill on a reasonably priced single was always popular with the less fit and able.

 

[Belperpete]

It’s probably bigger than you think, especially on the NYMR where there are points of interest/walks/hikes to be done from the intermediate stations as well as holiday accommodation there too. The NYMR risks alienating a reasonable number of people if it continues on its current trajectory.

I seem to recall that when the Ffestiniog analysed its traffic figures, they found that the percentage boarding and alighting at intermediate stations was tiny. And that a significant proportion of those were travelling for free! I doubt that the NYMR is that different.

I have no doubt that the NYMR risks alienating some people by these changes, but I suspect that they will be a vocal minority who don't actually contribute that much. The important thing is that for the railway to survive it needs to make significant changes, it can't continue haemorrhaging money indefinitely. If that means dropping some marginal services, so be it.

It is at times like this that you find out who a railway's true supporters are.

 

[ChrisC]

The problem is that the number of passengers wanting to do this is miniscule, probably less than one percent of the total. It doesn't make commercial sense to cater specially for such traffic.

It’s probably bigger than you think, especially on the NYMR where there are points of interest/walks/hikes to be done from the intermediate stations as well as holiday accommodation there too. The NYMR risks alienating a reasonable number of people if it continues on its current trajectory.

The number of people who are now trying to do this is almost certainly miniscule. The number of people who may actually want do this, if timetables, pricing and even advertising made it more attractive, may be a few more. I completely agree that the NYMR has got to be financially viable and for that reason the limited resources are focussed on the most profitable customers. Going back just 10 years there were significantly more people spending a day using a rover ticket between Pickering and Grosmont before Whitby became the most popular and main destination on the line. The emphasis now is on filling the trains with families going on a day trip to Whitby and that brings in the money. However, they probably have alienated some rail enthusiasts by doing this, and they are the people who are more likely to be returning visitors and financially support the railway long term in various ways.

 

[D Mylchreest]

The only catering outlet I experienced on the NYMR was the one at Grosmont where the staff were always very surly and in any case it closed at 15.00 even though the trains ran for about two hours after closure. I just bought butties at the Co-op instead. Perhaps I should say, to provide context, that my last visit to Grosmont was in 2012 or thereabouts, perhaps the ambience has changed.

 

[Iskra]

I seem to recall that when the Ffestiniog analysed its traffic figures, they found that the percentage boarding and alighting at intermediate stations was tiny. And that a significant proportion of those were travelling for free! I doubt that the NYMR is that different.

I have no doubt that the NYMR risks alienating some people by these changes, but I suspect that they will be a vocal minority who don't actually contribute that much. The important thing is that for the railway to survive it needs to make significant changes, it can't continue haemorrhaging money indefinitely. If that means dropping some marginal services, so be it.

It is at times like this that you find out who a railway's true supporters are.

The NYMR is not the Ffestiniog.

By all means drop wasteful services, but running services then denying reasonable access to the remaining services at intermediate stations by making a very expensive Day Rover the only ticket is bad business.

Getting picky about whose money is worthy is not going to be successful business the long term. And when it all goes wrong, who do you think they will look to bail them out first?

Seriously, what’s with all the digs? As I’ve already said- I’ve spent 3 figures at the NYMR last year, and the same at another heritage railway too. My total spend across all heritage railways is probably 4 figures and certainly so if you count mainline railtours with preserved locomotives too. How many day trippers and retirees spend a 4 figure sum on preserved railways each year? Probably very few. In enthusiast terms my interests are diverse and I’m actually a fairly casual enthusiast; I know there are others out there that do railways every single weekend. That’s a lot of cash to turn ones nose up at.

Ah, so constructive business criticism = not a true supporter. So only those that blindly serve up their cash for others to waste, take home in wages and keep preservation for the retirees and families are worthy then?

 

[D6130]

Obviously there are outlets where the footfall is far larger than the preserved railway. The KVWRs Parcel Office? at Keighley Station is one Ive eaten in recently.

The big advantage that the KWVR have with their Parcels Office café/bar is that it is public-facing with its main entrance on the street, it's licensed, it does hot food and it's open for much longer hours than the railway and on days when the railway isn't operating. As a result it's used by local people and main line rail passengers as well and - while I haven't seen the relevant figures - I'm pretty sure that it's a net contributor to the railway's finances. Perhaps @30907 could confirm or otherwise?

 

[Belperpete]

The NYMR is not the Ffestiniog.

By all means drop wasteful services, but running services then denying reasonable access to the remaining services at intermediate stations by making a very expensive Day Rover the only ticket is bad business.

Getting picky about whose money is worthy is not going to be successful business the long term. And when it all goes wrong, who do you think they will look to bail them out first?

Seriously, what’s with all the digs? As I’ve already said- I’ve spent 3 figures at the NYMR last year, and the same at another heritage railway too. My total spend across all heritage railways is probably 4 figures and certainly so if you count mainline railtours with preserved locomotives too. How many day trippers and retirees spend a 4 figure sum on preserved railways each year? Probably very few. In enthusiast terms my interests are diverse and I’m actually a fairly casual enthusiast; I know there are others out there that do railways every single weekend. That’s a lot of cash to turn ones nose up at.

Ah, so constructive business criticism = not a true supporter. So only those that blindly serve up their cash for others to waste, take home in wages and keep preservation for the retirees and families are worthy then?

Getting picky is exactly what the NYMR needs to do if it is to survive. Not every customer is a profitable customer. And wow - you spent three figures! I suspect that just about every family spends three figures at the railway. And why do you feel the need to boast about how much you spent elsewhere?

I fail to see anything whatsoever constructive in your criticism. All you seem to be doing is complaining that the railway isn't serving your rather niche needs. A true supporter would be more concerned about the railway's survival, rather than wanting it to continue with the same-old same-old loss making ways.

 

[Swimbar]

I seem to recall that when the Ffestiniog analysed its traffic figures, they found that the percentage boarding and alighting at intermediate stations was tiny. And that a significant proportion of those were travelling for free! I doubt that the NYMR is that different.

I have no doubt that the NYMR risks alienating some people by these changes, but I suspect that they will be a vocal minority who don't actually contribute that much. The important thing is that for the railway to survive it needs to make significant changes, it can't continue haemorrhaging money indefinitely. If that means dropping some marginal services, so be it.

It is at times like this that you find out who a railway's true supporters are.

We are fully aware from previous posts over many months that you are not a supporter of the NYMR and attack it at every opportunity.
It's a very popular heritage railway and continues to survive.

 

[Iskra]

Getting picky is exactly what the NYMR needs to do if it is to survive. Not every customer is a profitable customer. And wow - you spent three figures! I suspect that just about every family spends three figures at the railway. And why do you feel the need to boast about how much you spent elsewhere?

I fail to see anything whatsoever constructive in your criticism. All you seem to be doing is complaining that the railway isn't serving your rather niche needs. A true supporter would be more concerned about the railway's survival, rather than wanting it to continue with the same-old same-old loss making ways.

The interests of the NYMR and enthusiasts are intertwined. The successful railways appeal to all.

Anyway, it’s pointless discussing anything with you.

 

[Sheldonian]

Think it would be nice if we could all stand and pull together to help our wonderfull preserved railways pull through in these challenging times. Volunteers work their socks off. We just have to turn up and enjoy the day.
I fully understand that cost is high for all involved and this is a problem for a lot of people..
One thing is certain, if our preserved railways cease to exist and stock gets scrapped, the world would be a crappier place than it is already.
Any income to the railway is great. Even a coffee or two in the shop. If the cafe is open then costs already incurred so any income is better than none, so that is a daft arguement from further up the thread.
Conversely, if you have visited and had a great day, why not go back and have another great day if you can afford.
If you have the money but dont fancy visiting, why not consider a small donation from time to time.
Every bit helps keep our wonderful hobby and railways in existance.

 

[Gwr12345]

What happened to 101685? No update on it since 2022. And is 101680 the one that's sat rotting for the past few years?

 

[SteveM70]

Here’s another thing.

The NYMR featured in a channel 5 documentary series relatively recently, that according to the railway got over 1.1 million viewers.

That’s publicity every other preserved railway can only dream of - and yet they’re still haemorrhaging money

 

[Sheldonian]

You make a good point SteveM70.
The NYMR also has a tourist location that would be the envy of many other lines in the country.
I guess that the recipe for making the railway sustainable is proving difficult to find. All options seem to have drawbacks or upset some people.
All i do know is that if places like the NYMR were to go to the wall, our enthusiast world would be a poorer place.

 

[Iskra]

You make a good point SteveM70.
The NYMR also has a tourist location that would be the envy of many other lines in the country.
I guess that the recipe for making the railway sustainable is proving difficult to find. All options seem to have drawbacks or upset some people.
All i do know is that if places like the NYMR were to go to the wall, our enthusiast world would be a poorer place.

I think it just goes to show that route length is as much as a drawback as it is a benefit.

I still believe they could offer a two-tier fare system that would please more people and gain more revenue:

1) One for end to end Whitby traffic, priced higher. These trains could be advertised as non stop to prevent ordinary fare holders joining. These could be pre-booked with perhaps one carriage for walk-ups or possibly passengers in the below category. Pre-booking would protect the railways income in the event of bad weather.
2) A separate cheaper fare for those happy to stay on the internal railway, run in the traditional way. This could be provided with a diesel, a railcar or a short steam set. It could always be extended if it proved popular or at peak times. If the Whitby trains were fully booked, prospective Whitby passengers may settle for this option instead or it might be better for those with shorter attention spans, just wanting a spin behind a steam train, the more price-conscious, plus hikers or those with an interest in Harry Potter or Heartbeat.

I don’t see why both markets can’t be served, there’s enough rolling stock to do so.

 

[paul1609]

Here’s another thing.

The NYMR featured in a channel 5 documentary series relatively recently, that according to the railway got over 1.1 million viewers.

That’s publicity every other preserved railway can only dream of - and yet they’re still haemorrhaging money

The NYMR is also unique among heritage railways in that it has a license to operate over the national network between Grosmont and Whitby. That incurs massive additional costs (see numerous posts on the subject of Swanage to Wareham over the last 5 years). I suspect these costs have been ok all the time that the core heritage operation was profitable. Cue Covid and the Ukrainian war and various Govt. policies and that core profitability has evaporated and the Whitby operation now leaves the NYMR especially exposed.

 

[Swimbar]

Here’s another thing.

The NYMR featured in a channel 5 documentary series relatively recently, that according to the railway got over 1.1 million viewers.

That’s publicity every other preserved railway can only dream of - and yet they’re still haemorrhaging money

Where is the factual evidence that they are haemorrhaging money? We know they made a loss year ending Feb 24 but not seen any update from them since.

 

[Notabene]

Accounts are due by the 7th March.

2024 will have provided a lot of rich data on passenger visits. The annual pass usage will be clear.
At the AGM, last year, the CEO seemed to be hinting that the ticketing would change in 2025, and so would the timetable.

I think we also need to bear in mind the poor weather in the summer and at the shoulder season as well. September was cold, as were April and May. This must've had an impact.

Fares in '24 were limited to two types and I think this prevented quite a few journeys.
Goathland is a popular destination for traffic out of Whitby and Pickering, it's not like the Ffestiniog.
A better mix of journey opportunities in the ticket offer would help sell more tickets.
An extra couple of large scale events will bring in more money and increase goodwill.