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Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

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Baxenden Bank

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I see that Sadiq Khan has declared an emergency in London due to the number of COVID cases (and people off work as a consequence).

There really needs to be a review of the ten day isolation policy as it is becoming pointless and more damaging than the virus. The suggestion that people isolate until they've had a couple of days negative tests earlier on seems eminently sensible.
This declaration of a 'major incident' phrase needs revisiting. When people hear it they seem to assume it is an immediate immense disaster, when it's basically an administrative procedure to give access to extra resources, to set up joint agency working, advise workers they might have to do longer / double shifts etc.

Of course the media looking for a free, easy story which can whip the public into an hysterical frenzy just love it. Get them reading your paper, watching your bulletin to see the latest (non) development of the (non) story.

If it was called 'declaration of joint working arrangements' no-one would bat an eyelid.
 
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John Luxton

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It's possible, but I won't say for definite, that we might just avoid 100k reported cases thanks to today's value not getting there. Sunday and Monday have tended to report slightly lower values across a 7 day period, and we're now into the school holidays, which has typically seen testing decline for previous holiday periods this year, so less cases numerically will be found should that materialise this time as well.
Just a point in quite a few areas, including where I live, school holidays do not start until Wednesday and are running Wednesday 22 (finish) to Wednesday January 5 (return).

In the north west when Christmas / New Year falls around a weekend such practice is common and it appears to be the same next year too.

When I worked in education one always felt cheated as the holiday wasn't book ended by weekends which with a mid week finish / start in effect shortened the holiday by 3 days!
 

yorksrob

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This declaration of a 'major incident' phrase needs revisiting. When people hear it they seem to assume it is an immediate immense disaster, when it's basically an administrative procedure to give access to extra resources, to set up joint agency working, advise workers they might have to do longer / double shifts etc.

Of course the media looking for a free, easy story which can whip the public into an hysterical frenzy just love it. Get them reading your paper, watching your bulletin to see the latest (non) development of the (non) story.

If it was called 'declaration of joint working arrangements' no-one would bat an eyelid.

Yes, is perhaps not entirely helpful under the circumstances !
 

Solent&Wessex

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I'm in the Market Ale House in Leyland and opinions are being expressed by those present that any further lockdown would be totally unacceptable.

A post on the regional BBC News Facebook page about the potential for lockdown has hundreds of comments. About 95% are saying "no more lockdowns" / "I've had my vaccines I was told those were the way out of this" / "we must live with this" / "So getting vaccinated was completely pointless then" or various other similar opinions.

This time last year it would have been 95% saying "lock down now" / "the army should be on the streets" / "if you step outside your house you will kill your granny" type comments.

Even a friend of mine's mother, who was most vociferous in her support for lockdowns, and spent much time berating anyone who even thought about leaving their house, has changed opinion and says enough is enough.
 

nedchester

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Maybe we need to go down the road of Singapore for the unvaccinated. If they contract Covid and need hospital treatment for Covid then they have to pay for their treatment. Let’s see how confident they feel this then?!

As I say I wouldn’t be comfortable with this but I’d rather that than the vaccinated chucked in the same boat as the unvaccinated.
 

duncanp

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Daily data has come through, still 90k of cases but still hardly much change to hospital and death figures. Looking at the hospital data over the last three months, so one battered at eye at the last peak in late oct, early Nov.

Cross fingers here it stays like this!

The rate at which cases are increasing seems to have plateaued over the past couple of days, but of course it is way too early to determine whether this is part of a long term trend.

The Daily Mail is saying the outbreak of Omicron in Gauteng Province, South Africa, has peaked after three weeks and is now falling, altough cases are still rising in the rest of the country.

I would think the same thing will happen in the UK, with cases peaking in London first before starting to fall, with other regions of the country following a few weeks later.

Indeed, taking a look at the figures for London, on 14th December the week on week rise in cases by specimen date was 205%, but on 16th December it is a little over 100%. There is the caveat that the figures for cases by specimen date will be updated in the next few days as more results come in, so it is much too early to see whether this is part of a long term trend. Nevertheless, when cases start to plateau (ie. rise at a slower rate) it is a sign that the virus is running out of new people to infect.

I just hope that the government can hold its nerve until the new year, when it should be clearer what the long term trends are, and in particular to ehat extent the increase in cases is going to lead to an increase in hospitalisations.

Because if there hasn't been a "surge" in hospitalisations by around January 3rd, then it will be clear that Omicron is not the threat to the NHS that was at first feared.

So I think the government is pursuing the right policy by waiting for more data before making a decision about any new restrictions.
 

yorksrob

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So I think the government is pursuing the right policy by waiting for more data before making a decision about any new restrictions.

Yes, I agree with that. I think the Government is right to wait for more data. I say that to counter the fairly widespread "we always do things too late" argument that one hears quite often.
 

kez19

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Maybe we need to go down the road of Singapore for the unvaccinated. If they contract Covid and need hospital treatment for Covid then they have to pay for their treatment. Let’s see how confident they feel this then?!

As I say I wouldn’t be comfortable with this but I’d rather that than the vaccinated chucked in the same boat as the unvaccinated.

Have you got a grudge against the unvaccinated here? I didn’t get my flu jab but I’ll happily pay for it

Divide and conquer the media and governments have done a great job here I reckon, turn the tables how would you really feel?

Personal choice/freedom gone so we are taken lessons from governments and media in what we can and can’t do but yet we can’t criticise them no more?

Maybe give this a read?
 
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21C101

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Yes, is perhaps not entirely helpful under the circumstances !
But it is appropriate to what Labour are trying to do.

Better to have a charlatan who don't believe in the restrictions but goes along with them out of political expedience (then breaks them in private) than someone worthy who believes in such restrictions as much because of communitarianism as any medical reason.

Which is why the party of Jacinda ArStarmer and his lickspittles Khan & Drakeford are barely ahead in the opinion polls despite the government handing them a string of own goals and it being midterm when they should be at least ten points clear every week.
 

adc82140

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This declaration of a 'major incident' phrase needs revisiting. When people hear it they seem to assume it is an immediate immense disaster, when it's basically an administrative procedure to give access to extra resources, to set up joint agency working, advise workers they might have to do longer / double shifts etc.

Of course the media looking for a free, easy story which can whip the public into an hysterical frenzy just love it. Get them reading your paper, watching your bulletin to see the latest (non) development of the (non) story.

If it was called 'declaration of joint working arrangements' no-one would bat an eyelid.
It's better than the phrase used in other countries "state of emergency"
 

21C101

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Maybe we need to go down the road of Singapore for the unvaccinated. If they contract Covid and need hospital treatment for Covid then they have to pay for their treatment. Let’s see how confident they feel this then?!

As I say I wouldn’t be comfortable with this but I’d rather that than the vaccinated chucked in the same boat as the unvaccinated.
On the contrary, despite some wariness about the novelty of the vaccines, and the illness to vaccine complications risk ratio; I went along with it, out of civic duty as much as anything, so I'm double jabbed.

But since they now have broken their side of the covenant and imposed restrictions again anywayx; they can stuff their booster and the two days of reactive illness to it, into their firmanent.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Maybe we need to go down the road of Singapore for the unvaccinated. If they contract Covid and need hospital treatment for Covid then they have to pay for their treatment. Let’s see how confident they feel this then?!

As I say I wouldn’t be comfortable with this but I’d rather that than the vaccinated chucked in the same boat as the unvaccinated.
Again, for the umpteenth time:
What about the smokers, do they get cancer care?
What about the burger eaters, do they get heart care?
What about the fizzy drinks drinkers, do they get diabetes care.
And so on.

Never mind the sports injuries and DIY accidents. Chop your arm with a chainsaw, sew it back on yourself mate.

Do you propose a refund / future reduction on National Insurance and general taxation payments to those you propose to exclude from what they already have paid for?
 

21C101

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A post on the regional BBC News Facebook page about the potential for lockdown has hundreds of comments. About 95% are saying "no more lockdowns" / "I've had my vaccines I was told those were the way out of this" / "we must live with this" / "So getting vaccinated was completely pointless then" or various other similar opinions.

This time last year it would have been 95% saying "lock down now" / "the army should be on the streets" / "if you step outside your house you will kill your granny" type comments.

Even a friend of mine's mother, who was most vociferous in her support for lockdowns, and spent much time berating anyone who even thought about leaving their house, has changed opinion and says enough is enough.
Yes, we met our side of the covenant and took the vaccines, putting aside reservations about then novelty and (particularly for young healthy people) the personal (as opposed to herd) covid risk to vaccine damage ratio.

And did so in vast numbers, exceeding most other western countries.

The government have now ratted on their half of the bargain and imposed further restrictions; so, quite frankly, they can get stuffed.
 

nedchester

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Again, for the umpteenth time:
What about the smokers, do they get cancer care?
What about the burger eaters, do they get heart care?
What about the fizzy drinks drinkers, do they get diabetes care.
And so on.

Never mind the sports injuries and DIY accidents. Chop your arm with a chainsaw, sew it back on yourself mate.

Do you propose a refund / future reduction on National Insurance and general taxation payments to those you propose to exclude from what they already have paid for?

I don’t disagree with any of that but if I was cornered into a situation where I had to be lockdown because some idiots didn’t get vaccinated then yes I would have a grudge and I would resent it.

The groups highlighted above do not have the potential to overwhelm the NHS. As I say I would be uncomfortable as I believe in healthcare for all but if push comes to shove then that would might be an acceptable first step.

Amazed how many anti vaxxers are on here today, thought you’d all be protesting in London….
 

John Luxton

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Maybe we need to go down the road of Singapore for the unvaccinated. If they contract Covid and need hospital treatment for Covid then they have to pay for their treatment. Let’s see how confident they feel this then?!

As I say I wouldn’t be comfortable with this but I’d rather that than the vaccinated chucked in the same boat as the unvaccinated.
In the UK everyone who has paid their NI has already paid for their treatment.
Whilst I would except those who have not reached an age to start paying NI could enter the NI scheme on those terms - changing the T&Cs for those long in it are unreasonable and could be deemed coercive.
Coercion or incentivisation to an unacceptable option is morally wrong is it not?
 

Baxenden Bank

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I don’t disagree with any of that but if I was cornered into a situation where I had to be lockdown because some idiots didn’t get vaccinated then yes I would have a grudge and I would resent it.

The groups highlighted above do not have the potential to overwhelm the NHS. As I say I would be uncomfortable as I believe in healthcare for all but if push comes to shove then that would might be an acceptable first step.

Amazed how many anti vaxxers are on here today, thought you’d all be protesting in London….
You don't disagree with what?

That we should, or we shouldn't treat people whose conditions are caused by lifestyle choices.
That we should or we shouldn't offer people a rebate on their tax in return for non-treatment?

I can just see the ward admissions person filling out a 100 page questionnaire on every intimate aspect of a patients life, since they reached adulthood, trying to find that killer answer which allows them to turf you back onto the street, untreated.

Those groups listed do have the potential to overwhelm the NHS. Who do you think are causing the normal everyday pressures on the NHS? Healthy people who fancy putting their feet up in the A & E for few hours, having a cup of tea and a nice chat with the WRVS volunteers. If we kicked out all the lifelong pie-eaters with heart disease etc there would be plenty of room in ICU to treat COVID patients!
 

kez19

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I don’t disagree with any of that but if I was cornered into a situation where I had to be lockdown because some idiots didn’t get vaccinated then yes I would have a grudge and I would resent it.

The groups highlighted above do not have the potential to overwhelm the NHS. As I say I would be uncomfortable as I believe in healthcare for all but if push comes to shove then that would might be an acceptable first step.

Amazed how many anti vaxxers are on here today, thought you’d all be protesting in London….

Oh dear here comes the childish media friendly name calling again. Didn’t the BBC teach you that word? I have an idea it’s better to be nice than to say nothing at all, so drop the whole anti vax stuff and grow up (that’s if you are an adult though)

Funny that I’m still waiting to be seen for being on the autism spectrum but still 2 years on I’m thrown on a pile being forgotten about but still that doesn’t matter though? I’ll probably be added to a COVID statistic for checking in when the appointment appears!
 
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yorksrob

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But it is appropriate to what Labour are trying to do.

Better to have a charlatan who don't believe in the restrictions but goes along with them out of political expedience (then breaks them in private) than someone worthy who believes in such restrictions as much because of communitarianism as any medical reason.
Yes, I agree with this position.
 

John Luxton

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Amazed how many anti vaxxers are on here today, thought you’d all be protesting in London….
You appear to have a problem differentiating as is the case of most of your ilk, between anti-vaxers who are just against vaccines and those who just do not want the C19 vaccine.

Some of us have memories of the thalidomide disaster in which newly developed medication was given to pregnant women with no idea what the outcomes would be.

A similar disaster happened with early batches of the polio vaccine too in the 1950s - research the Cutter incident.

Some people who currently don't want the vaccine may change their view after a period of time has passed. I am not sure I will, but you never know. A period of time in my book would be a minimum of 5 years thus 4 years to go before I would even think of considering it.
 

quantinghome

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How far do we have to go to try and stop the inevitable, which is that covid will always kill some people?

We aren't exactly letting people fend for themselves. We have created very effective vaccines and now have successful drugs to keep the worst of Covid at bay and protect as many people as possible. There will always be people that no matter how many vaccines they have or how long they are in hospital for, will die of or with Covid. That's sad for them, but it's no reason to ruin other people's lives with harsh restrictions or delay treatment for other health issues.
There's certainly a debate to be had over whether certain restrictions are worth doing in terms of their effectiveness and their interruption to people's lives.

But I was responding to posts suggesting we should "accept pandemics a population correction" and that trying to save lives is merely postponing death and making us "live in perpetual fear". For some strange reason I found these posts.. err.. problematic, to put it politely.
 

21C101

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You appear to have a problem differentiating as is the case of most of your ilk, between anti-vaxers who are just against vaccines and those who just do not want the C19 vaccine.

Some of us have memories of the thalidomide disaster in which newly developed medication was given to pregnant women with no idea what the outcomes would be.

A similar disaster happened with early batches of the polio vaccine too in the 1950s - research the Cutter incident.

Some people who currently don't want the vaccine may change their view after a period of time has passed. I am not sure I will, but you never know. A period of time in my book would be a minimum of 5 years thus 4 years to go before I would even think of considering it.
The authoritarian mindset.

Anyone who expresses the slightest reservation or dissent from what those on high pronounce is to be vilified, demonised and destroyed.

What this last two years have shown is that the health establishment has a we are God and we know fest brutal authoritarian mindset which would have done credit to Mussolini.

Although any NHS whilstleblower could long have told you that.

It is not uncommon when an entire industry is subsumed in one organisation pyramid. Dissent can result in total banishment. It was a similar story in parts of British Rail, where dismisaal expelled you from the industry, not just a company.

That is one reason that the change to a cluster of independent organisations at rail privatisation set loose such rancour and internecine warfare. People working under martinets were able to escape to parallel organisatoons and revelled on the boot now being on on the other foot enabling festering scores to be settled.
 

nedchester

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In the UK everyone who has paid their NI has already paid for their treatment.
Whilst I would except those who have not reached an age to start paying NI could enter the NI scheme on those terms - changing the T&Cs for those long in it are unreasonable and could be deemed coercive.
Coercion or incentivisation to an unacceptable option is morally wrong is it not?

National Insurance does not pay for the NHS.

As I say I don’t find the measures suggested palatable but perhaps maybe more acceptable if push came to shove…..
 

yorkie

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Piers Corbyn has released a new song
Soundtrack & Anthem Right Here. “I’m not a loser, I don’t want the booster” - Don't Tek It - Remeece Feat. Piers Corbyn.

I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded by that. While I agree with Piers' views against restrictions and lockdowns, we need to be absolutely clear that vaccinations are absolutely key to accelerating our race to reach endemic equilibrium with Sars-CoV-2.

It one thing to say people have a right to choose whether to take a vaccine but quite another to actively encourage other people not to take it; to me that is a real anti-vax message and it's dangerous.

Vaccines are under attack from conspiracy theorists like Piers Corbyn on one side and the vaccine efficacy deniers (who believe in vaccination, or even mandatory vaccination, but argue that vaccines are not actually very good in order to justify restrictions) but I think most people are capable of making an informed choice, both about whether to get vaccinated/boosted and whether it allows them to lead normal lives.

In other news, UK new cases announced today was similar to yesterday; I think cases could still go up a lot. I suspect that London is going to peak a lot earlier than other places. It is increasingly becoming clear that Omicron almost certainly is replacing Delta and with more and more vaccinations being administered, hospitalisations should not go up proportionately with cases.

It looks like Omicron has peaked in Gauteng:
Cases appear to have peaked in the South African province where the Omicron variant was first discovered, with early indications that deaths will be lower than in previous waves.

After extremely rapid early growth, Gauteng province, which includes the cities of Johannesburg and Pretoria, recorded 9,250 new cases yesterday, down from a high of over 11,000 earlier in the week.
 
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21C101

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National Insurance does not pay for the NHS.

As I say I don’t find the measures suggested palatable but perhaps maybe more acceptable if push came to shove…..
Why stop there. Pehaps we should force parents who refuse to abort babies with down syndrome or other pre birth health issues like hole in the heart or cleft palette to pay for all the resultant healthcare the child subsequently needs, even if it bankrupts them?
 

kez19

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National Insurance does not pay for the NHS.

As I say I don’t find the measures suggested palatable but perhaps maybe more acceptable if push came to shove…..

Umm https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/how-nhs-funded

just a small quote…



From April 2003, National Insurance Contributions were increased to boost NHS funding. This increased the share of NHS funding that comes from National Insurance Contributions, but general taxation still accounts for the vast majority of NHS funding.

In addition, a small proportion of NHS funding comes from patient charges. These include charges for prescriptions and dental treatment first introduced in the early 1950s. In 2019/20, income from patient fees and charges for prescriptions and dental care was £1.5 billion, or 1.1 per cent of the total Department of Health and Social Care budget.
 

nedchester

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Piers Corbyn has released a new song


I don't think anyone is going to be persuaded by that. While I agree with Piers' views against restrictions and lockdowns, we need to be absolutely clear that vaccinations are absolutely key to accelerating our race to reach endemic equilibrium with Sars-CoV-2.

It one thing to say people have a right to choose whether to take a vaccine but quite another to actively encourage other people not to take it; to me that is a real anti-vax message and it's dangerous.

Vaccines are under attack from conspiracy theorists like Piers Corbyn on one side and the vaccine efficacy deniers (who believe in vaccination, or even mandatory vaccination, but argue that vaccines are not actually very good in order to justify restrictions) but I think most people are capable of making an informed choice.

Agree. Vaccines and treatment are the key out of this thing.

Piers Corbyn is a dangerous idiot and to be honest if he caught Covid there’s a fair chance it would finish him off but expect his supporters to say it was all a conspiracy by Bill Gates or some other nonsense.
 

21C101

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Agree. Vaccines and treatment are the key out of this thing.

Piers Corbyn is a dangerous idiot and to be honest 8f he caught Covid there’s a fair chance it would finish him off but expect his supporters to say it was all a conspiracy by Bill Gates or some other nonsense.
There was a novel wasn't there about England Occupied by the Nazis in World War 2.

To cut a long story short, the UK Gestapo chief was an ex British Policeman and the most hated man in the country.

After the war, an aghast populai
 
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