Overcrowding on North Wales Coast When The Sun Shines This Summer

[Llandudno]

If there is no stock available to strengthen services on the north Wales Coast, could some coaches/buses be chartered to help at the busiest times.

I think the only way to possibly try and get passengers to volunteer to switch from a potentially overcrowded train to a quality coach would be to run some non stop coaches between say, Chester and Rhyl or Llandudno?

A non stop coach between Chester and Llandudno would be fairly comparable in running time with the train, provided the A55 was running smoothly, which, in all fairness if the trains were busy because the weather forecast then the A55 could well be gridlocked!

So perhaps, not a such a great idea after all!

 

[Jez]

As those services are still running North of Shrewsbury it doesn't buy you too many sets - especially when you take into account the fact one 3 car is away getting refurbished. In any case, platform lengths make it very difficult to run 175s in multiple on the Marches and between Chester and Shrewsbury.

And as Cardiff to Holyhead was once every two hours its a very small saving in terms of sets by cutting it back to Shrewsbury. Given the demand at the moment isn't it time they reverted back to the regular before Covid timetable. I could understand the reduced timetable during the time when it was only key workers or essential travel only but now its pretty much a free for all and not even extra carriages added to compensate for less trains.

Even if the two car 175s could be doubled up so every service on the Marches/North Wales was either 3 or 4 carriages it would help. They may not be such an issue with platforms? But i expect there wouldn't enough available sets to do that.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'm planning to travel from Chester to Abergele and back this Tuesday. I need to be in Abergele for lunch. Any suggestions as to the least crowded trains please?

 

[craigybagel]

Let us assume a worst case scenario and that a passenger died a contributory factor being that they suffered from the medical event due to "inadequate provision on the North Wales route at holiday time". What "solution" do you think would be found if the case went to court and TFW was found wanting? Would they find a way to improve matters then or would it be a case of pacifying the press with "lessons have been learned" and blaming the Westminster government (something that the Welsh administration would happily do while a Tory was in power, LOL). It is not my job to have a "proposed solution" but there could be a better explanation to the travelling public as to why their journey is likely to be or was a nightmare. Facts would be helpful and I have seen a number of useful and informative facts mentioned in this thread (from yourself included) which may help to explain to the rail user WHY their train is infrequent, short-formations etc. It may not resolve the issue but at least people could be made aware of potential shortcomings before forking out money for a journey that is likely to be a nightmare. It may also help the frontline rail staff who have to deal with this unenviable state of affairs. And if people know the facts they may be inclined to postpone the journey and return in the future when things are better instead of have a really bad experience and never return to rail usage.

TfW (and indeed Arriva before them) have been pretty consistent at pointing out that there simply aren't enough trains to improve matters. The effects of the awful 15 year no growth franchise still linger on - not helped in recent times by new fleets arriving late and/or with massive reliability issues.

I'm not sure how TfW could be blamed for "inadequate provision" when as they keep pointing out, they're doing everything they can to keep services as well provided for as possible.

And as Cardiff to Holyhead was once every two hours its a very small saving in terms of sets by cutting it back to Shrewsbury. Given the demand at the moment isn't it time they reverted back to the regular before Covid timetable. I could understand the reduced timetable during the time when it was only key workers or essential travel only but now its pretty much a free for all and not even extra carriages added to compensate for less trains.

Even if the two car 175s could be doubled up so every service on the Marches/North Wales was either 3 or 4 carriages it would help. They may not be such an issue with platforms? But i expect there wouldn't enough available sets to do that.

You're correct, there aren't enough sets to double the 175s, or indeed do anything beyond what is currently being implement.

It would also be a massive struggle to return back to the full timetable at this time - even if the units to do so were available (without just shrinking the existing services) there probably aren't the crews available to run them. Even the current timetable is reliant on a fair bit of overtime every day to keep running. What little spare staff availability there is at present is being taken up by catching up on behind schedule training.

 

[Grumpus63]

TfW (and indeed Arriva before them) have been pretty consistent at pointing out that there simply aren't enough trains to improve matters. The effects of the awful 15 year no growth franchise still linger on - not helped in recent times by new fleets arriving late and/or with massive reliability issues.

I'm not sure how TfW could be blamed for "inadequate provision" when as they keep pointing out, they're doing everything they can to keep services as well provided for as possible.

You're correct, there aren't enough sets to double the 175s, or indeed do anything beyond what is currently being implement.

It would also be a massive struggle to return back to the full timetable at this time - even if the units to do so were available (without just shrinking the existing services) there probably aren't the crews available to run them. Even the current timetable is reliant on a fair bit of overtime every day to keep running. What little spare staff availability there is at present is being taken up by catching up on behind schedule training.

Interesting craigybagel; like I said it takes threads like this to provide a fuller picture. There is the passengers experience, the railway employees experience and the political viewpoints and actions/inactions all to take into account. I am going to enjoy this forum because it provides viewpoints, information and education that I won't find elsewhere.

 

[Jez]

TfW (and indeed Arriva before them) have been pretty consistent at pointing out that there simply aren't enough trains to improve matters. The effects of the awful 15 year no growth franchise still linger on - not helped in recent times by new fleets arriving late and/or with massive reliability issues.

I'm not sure how TfW could be blamed for "inadequate provision" when as they keep pointing out, they're doing everything they can to keep services as well provided for as possible.

You're correct, there aren't enough sets to double the 175s, or indeed do anything beyond what is currently being implement.

It would also be a massive struggle to return back to the full timetable at this time - even if the units to do so were available (without just shrinking the existing services) there probably aren't the crews available to run them. Even the current timetable is reliant on a fair bit of overtime every day to keep running. What little spare staff availability there is at present is being taken up by catching up on behind schedule training.

Most passengers wont accept TFW reasons, they will just see a poor service and ask why TFW cant just 'find more trains' when we know it isnt as easy as that.

If Cardiff-Holyhead has 3 sets spare, 1 of which (on paper) is the set being refurbished then the other two could be doubled up to another set to provide 4 carriages on North Wales and/or Marches which could be crucial for providing enough capacity. You said one is needed to cover the Manchester-North Wales loco that is currently not being used, its time that was reintroduced as well I think.

 

[wobman]

If there is no stock available to strengthen services on the north Wales Coast, could some coaches/buses be chartered to help at the busiest times.

I think the only way to possibly try and get passengers to volunteer to switch from a potentially overcrowded train to a quality coach would be to run some non stop coaches between say, Chester and Rhyl or Llandudno?

A non stop coach between Chester and Llandudno would be fairly comparable in running time with the train, provided the A55 was running smoothly, which, in all fairness if the trains were busy because the weather forecast then the A55 could well be gridlocked!

So perhaps, not a such a great idea after all!

The A55 is always very very busy this time of year, a 2hr road journey can take 4hrs plus. That's why passengers opt for the trains, if they travelled earlier the trains are quiet. Unfortunately the holiday camps have late booking in times now, so the problem won't change unless the camps have more staggered book in times.
As for the coaches many won't accept prams/bikes/big luggage ok plus journey times are double. So people just cram on the trains like sardines.
Regarding masks were are the BTP ? They are the only people that can enforce the law

 

[sd0733]

You said one is needed to cover the Manchester-North Wales loco that is currently not being used, its time that was reintroduced as well I think.

It cant come back, the original set which did this service is now withdrawn as was no longer legally able to continue in service.
The Mk4s are either in service or being used for training on them and currently not enough trained crews to get a second set out to cascade 175s about.
The lack of gangways and Selective door operation on the 175s also severely limits the amount of multi working on those even of there were available units.

 

[Jez]

It cant come back, the original set which did this service is now withdrawn as was no longer legally able to continue in service.
The Mk4s are either in service or being used for training on them and currently not enough trained crews to get a second set out to cascade 175s about.
The lack of gangways and Selective door operation on the 175s also severely limits the amount of multi working on those even of there were available units.

I hadnt realised it had been withdrawn, i thought it was because of covid it wasnt in use. My apologies.

 

[wobman]

Traincrews are moving off there jobs to cover work and lots of overtime is being used, even soTFW are still struggling to cover the reduced timetable.
TFW are getting any units they can to strengthen services, but the 230 delays and MK4 delays have made the problem worse. If they were running there would be more spare units available.
The MK4s can only be driven on the N Wales coast by limited amount of trained Holyhead drivers / guards and if there's non available the services get cancelled as today.
The 230's are still testing and training traincrew at present, but failing most days !
It's a perfect storm for TFW unfortunately Avanti don't help, they reduce services and plan to reduce more to make the TFW services busier.

 

[craigybagel]

Interesting craigybagel; like I said it takes threads like this to provide a fuller picture. There is the passengers experience, the railway employees experience and the political viewpoints and actions/inactions all to take into account. I am going to enjoy this forum because it provides viewpoints, information and education that I won't find elsewhere.

Most passengers wont accept TFW reasons, they will just see a poor service and ask why TFW cant just 'find more trains' when we know it isnt as easy as that.

For the passengers it must indeed be very tiring hearing the same excuses, and I do understand why there would be a certain degree of cynicism around them! And rest assured I'm just as sick as giving out the same excuses. At least on these forums a slightly higher percentage of people actually seem to believe me....

Things will get better - in time. But there's a lot of damage to deal with first, both from the old franchise and subsequently Covid, and there are no quick fixes.

 

[Starmill]

I'm planning to travel from Chester to Abergele and back this Tuesday. I need to be in Abergele for lunch. Any suggestions as to the least crowded trains please?

You could travel on the 1014 Avanti West Coast service from Chester to Rhyl, arriving 1045. This should be formed of five coaches and thus much less likely to be full and standing. Obviously you'd then need to use a local bus or taxi, or undertake a lengthy walk, to get to where you need to be in Abergele so that's not necessarily going to meet your needs unfortunately.

Failing that, there's an 0829 from Chester but that would have you several hours early, but is likely to be less busy than the 1027.

 

[markymark2000]

If there is no stock available to strengthen services on the north Wales Coast, could some coaches/buses be chartered to help at the busiest times.

I think the only way to possibly try and get passengers to volunteer to switch from a potentially overcrowded train to a quality coach would be to run some non stop coaches between say, Chester and Rhyl or Llandudno?

A non stop coach between Chester and Llandudno would be fairly comparable in running time with the train, provided the A55 was running smoothly, which, in all fairness if the trains were busy because the weather forecast then the A55 could well be gridlocked!

So perhaps, not a such a great idea after all!

In fairness, they do (or at least did have) coaches on standby. Prestatyn was having 2 coaches on standby all day which were literally just there to cover for an overcrowded train. Brought a good few people in as well them coaches did on top of the train loads. Non stop Chester - Llandudno would be comparable with trains but from experience with Rail Rep coordination, that isn't where most people want to go. It's Rhyl, Bangor or Holyhead. Llandudno doesn't seem to get much of a mention.

TfW (and indeed Arriva before them) have been pretty consistent at pointing out that there simply aren't enough trains to improve matters. The effects of the awful 15 year no growth franchise still linger on - not helped in recent times by new fleets arriving late and/or with massive reliability issues.

I'm not sure how TfW could be blamed for "inadequate provision" when as they keep pointing out, they're doing everything they can to keep services as well provided for as possible.

You're correct, there aren't enough sets to double the 175s, or indeed do anything beyond what is currently being implement.

It would also be a massive struggle to return back to the full timetable at this time - even if the units to do so were available (without just shrinking the existing services) there probably aren't the crews available to run them. Even the current timetable is reliant on a fair bit of overtime every day to keep running. What little spare staff availability there is at present is being taken up by catching up on behind schedule training.

Speaking as a passenger and someone who shares the view that it's a TFW problem, I think that this is A TFW problem. When I used Arriva, even towards the extreme end of the franchise, they were excellent. Generally on time, Capacity was fair, not amazing on some trips but generally did quite well on the coast and prices felt better. Since TFW have come in, fares seem to have risen massively, overcrowding massively increased and I have had more late trips than I have had on time. Clearly, something, somewhere has gone up the wall and whether that is down to current or previous management, it's only since TFW that the issues have come about, especially for North Wales.
Unless overnight, someone took away 30 trains and passenger numbers increased by 10%, I do not believe that we can blame the previous franchise for the issues. There is certainly some issues in TFW. It's one thing to have a problem, it is how you deal with it that counts. You can't just halve a timetable and still be 'reliant on a fair bit of overtime'. What a load of rubbish. Someone in TFW isn't doing their job properly.

Yes the franchise may have lost some units but it has also gained many units with the 769s and 153s. D trains due in soon if they can get the training sorted but what is the betting that during the closure of the Wrex-Bidston line next month, they won't do a crash course training on the D train so that they can be introduced quicker. There is just no rush to do anything. Private operators have more incentive to do something because it's lost money. TFW know full well that they say jump, the Welsh Govt says how high so they keep dragging things out and then ask for more subsidy.

The Coast issues are partly down to Avanti as well though. Their timetables are reduced so that isn't helping things but TFW keep wasting capacity in some areas which don't need it but won't provide capacity in areas which do want/need it.

Most passengers wont accept TFW reasons, they will just see a poor service and ask why TFW cant just 'find more trains' when we know it isnt as easy as that.

If Cardiff-Holyhead has 3 sets spare, 1 of which (on paper) is the set being refurbished then the other two could be doubled up to another set to provide 4 carriages on North Wales and/or Marches which could be crucial for providing enough capacity. You said one is needed to cover the Manchester-North Wales loco that is currently not being used, its time that was reintroduced as well I think.

No it's not as easy as finding new trains because there aren't nesecerilly more trains out there. What there is though is a good few trains out there which are either with TFW or stored for TFW doing sod all when they could and should be out on the network. The 230s are late already. It's 1 line using 2 trains, how many people exactly need training for goodness sake. Are they trying to train all of the company on them? They have been available for training for a while, now they have decided they need to cancel a midday round trip to train staff. How long are they going to drag out this training lark. There is 2 trains being used there which could boost capacity and we have 5 D trains out there which officially could be used tomorrow if they wanted to. But no, we need to train 4,000 staff on them and then they will need to plan and do a launch of them.
It's not about finding new trains, it's about getting the ones which are new to the company, out in service, not sitting in storage gathering dust.

For the passengers it must indeed be very tiring hearing the same excuses, and I do understand why there would be a certain degree of cynicism around them! And rest assured I'm just as sick as giving out the same excuses. At least on these forums a slightly higher percentage of people actually seem to believe me....

Things will get better - in time. But there's a lot of damage to deal with first, both from the old franchise and subsequently Covid, and there are no quick fixes.

Think of it from another perspective. If you have one operator who managed the trains quite well and kept every informed and generally had no issues then overnight, you get a new operator and the trains become frequently late, overcrowded or cancelled. Who are you going to blame for the issues? Given this is now nearly 3 years of this rubbish and we keep being told 'we are doing our best' would you believe it?
From my personal experience, Northern 2016 was in a better place than TFW and that says a lot!

 

[Welshman]

I'm planning to travel from Chester to Abergele and back this Tuesday. I need to be in Abergele for lunch. Any suggestions as to the least crowded trains please?

For what its worth - there is a capacity checker on the TfW website:-

Capacity Checker | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfwrail.wales

Re today's [Sat 24th July] overcrowding, I note that several of the Avanti Crewe-Holyhead shuttles have been formed of 10 cars instead of 5.
They are not all that frequent, but could be an attempt to provide some relief on these busy Saturdays.
We usually try to aim for the Avanti services for journeys to Chester from North Wales stations, as 5 cars are better than 2 or 3, and you can actually reserve a specific seat rather than simply be given a counted place.

P.S. - f.a.o. Jan Mayen - If you want the centre of Abergele, Starmill's suggestion at #189 is a good one - there is a service 12 from Rhyl Bus Station [just outside the Railway station] at 11am, which is usually a double-decker with seats available, which takes you right into and through Abergele, arriving about 11.30am, whereas the railway station is in Pensarn - about 15 minute's walk from the centre of Abergele.

 

[wobman]

In fairness, they do (or at least did have) coaches on standby. Prestatyn was having 2 coaches on standby all day which were literally just there to cover for an overcrowded train. Brought a good few people in as well them coaches did on top of the train loads. Non stop Chester - Llandudno would be comparable with trains but from experience with Rail Rep coordination, that isn't where most people want to go. It's Rhyl, Bangor or Holyhead. Llandudno doesn't seem to get much of a mention.


Speaking as a passenger and someone who shares the view that it's a TFW problem, I think that this is A TFW problem. When I used Arriva, even towards the extreme end of the franchise, they were excellent. Generally on time, Capacity was fair, not amazing on some trips but generally did quite well on the coast and prices felt better. Since TFW have come in, fares seem to have risen massively, overcrowding massively increased and I have had more late trips than I have had on time. Clearly, something, somewhere has gone up the wall and whether that is down to current or previous management, it's only since TFW that the issues have come about, especially for North Wales.
Unless overnight, someone took away 30 trains and passenger numbers increased by 10%, I do not believe that we can blame the previous franchise for the issues. There is certainly some issues in TFW. It's one thing to have a problem, it is how you deal with it that counts. You can't just halve a timetable and still be 'reliant on a fair bit of overtime'. What a load of rubbish. Someone in TFW isn't doing their job properly.

Yes the franchise may have lost some units but it has also gained many units with the 769s and 153s. D trains due in soon if they can get the training sorted but what is the betting that during the closure of the Wrex-Bidston line next month, they won't do a crash course training on the D train so that they can be introduced quicker. There is just no rush to do anything. Private operators have more incentive to do something because it's lost money. TFW know full well that they say jump, the Welsh Govt says how high so they keep dragging things out and then ask for more subsidy.

The Coast issues are partly down to Avanti as well though. Their timetables are reduced so that isn't helping things but TFW keep wasting capacity in some areas which don't need it but won't provide capacity in areas which do want/need it.


No it's not as easy as finding new trains because there aren't nesecerilly more trains out there. What there is though is a good few trains out there which are either with TFW or stored for TFW doing sod all when they could and should be out on the network. The 230s are late already. It's 1 line using 2 trains, how many people exactly need training for goodness sake. Are they trying to train all of the company on them? They have been available for training for a while, now they have decided they need to cancel a midday round trip to train staff. How long are they going to drag out this training lark. There is 2 trains being used there which could boost capacity and we have 5 D trains out there which officially could be used tomorrow if they wanted to. But no, we need to train 4,000 staff on them and then they will need to plan and do a launch of them.
It's not about finding new trains, it's about getting the ones which are new to the company, out in service, not sitting in storage gathering dust.


Think of it from another perspective. If you have one operator who managed the trains quite well and kept every informed and generally had no issues then overnight, you get a new operator and the trains become frequently late, overcrowded or cancelled. Who are you going to blame for the issues? Given this is now nearly 3 years of this rubbish and we keep being told 'we are doing our best' would you believe it?
From my personal experience, Northern 2016 was in a better place than TFW and that says a lot!

TFW have inherited a lot of problems from ATW, there was no planning by ATW once the Pacers left the franchise. That's left a big hole in the fleet and has a knock on effect to how the services are now.
All the TFW fleet is going through refurbishment and there's a huge covid training backlog.

The 230's fail most days, how do you train staff if the trains can't even get off the depot ? How do you train 100 drivers on them and run services ? It's easy looking from the outside not realising how complicated just 1 fleet of new trains is causing.

Running a franchise is not easy and TFW have made a few errors but there's a big ATW/DFT legacy from running a 15 years non growth franchise that drains away any profit away to their German owners ! Imagine if the profits had been reinvested into the franchise and new rolling stock.

 

[Watershed]

You can't just halve a timetable and still be 'reliant on a fair bit of overtime'. What a load of rubbish. Someone in TFW isn't doing their job properly.

Unfortunately that's the position a lot of operators find themselves in right now.

Quite a lot of traincrew have either retired or moved to other TOCs or industries during the pandemic, and some have been allowed to 'shield' at home so have lost all their route & traction card. Add on the effect of the 'pingdemic' and it's not hard to see how they might be struggling.

Halving the timetable will almost never halve your traincrew numbers. At best it might save you something like 25% of your traincrew, which in pre-Covid days might have meant getting by without much overtime - whereas today you need lots of overtime even just to cover that.

It's 1 line using 2 trains, how many people exactly need training for goodness sake. Are they trying to train all of the company on them? They have been available for training for a while, now they have decided they need to cancel a midday round trip to train staff. How long are they going to drag out this training lark. There is 2 trains being used there which could boost capacity and we have 5 D trains out there which officially could be used tomorrow if they wanted to. But no, we need to train 4,000 staff on them and then they will need to plan and do a launch of them.

The Borderlands line is signed by Shrewsbury guards and Chester drivers and guards. That's a not insignificant number of traincrew to train, each of which have to be released from their normal duties to undertake training. When you're in the above situation that's not easy.

Where I do lay some of the blame is with TfW's insistence on following Welsh social distancing regulations (and even then, far more strictly than the law requires) when the relevant traincrew are based in England, which has always had less stringent guidance and law.

Together with how long they took to restart training (with the 'bubble' system), it guaranteed that the training was always going to be strung out and delayed.

 

[Starmill]

Since TFW have come in, fares seem to have risen massively

It's interesting that you point this out. Which fares are you thinking of?

To take an example of a very poor value for money journey to make by rail, a flexible single from Chester to Colwyn Bay in January 2019 was a whopping £21 despite being just 40 miles. Today, two and a half years later, the price is in absolute terms £1.10 lower. The return ticket was £23.10 then, and is £21.90 now, so again is £1.20 lower in cash terms and slightly more in real terms.

I'm not defending charging £19.90 for a one way ride just from Colwyn Bay to Chester, at about 50p per mile it reflects utterly terrible value for money. The return at 28p per mile is still uncompetitive and the service certainly isn't at all good enough to justify such prices, but it's better. However, it's worth noting that the prices have dropped back notably.

 

[PHILIPE]

Where I do lay some of the blame is with TfW's insistence on following Welsh social distancing regulations (and even then, far more strictly than the law requires) when the relevant traincrew are based in England, which has always had less stringent guidance and law.

Together with how long they took to restart training (with the 'bubble' system), it guaranteed that the training was always going to be strung out and delayed.

Are the unions not having an input into COVID restrictions ?

We seem to have a super ranter who can say no good about TFW and makes me wonder if this poster really has much knowledge about the ins and outs and whys and wherefores of the in depth workings of the industry.

 

[Watershed]

Are the unions not having an input into COVID restrictions ?

We seem to have a super ranter who can say no good about TFW and makes me wonder if this poster really has much knowledge about the ins and outs and whys and wherefores of the in depth workings of the industry.

That's part of the problem, yes.

There are far too many TOCs, I fear including TfW, whose management would rather decimate training (and thus the service) than tackle the issues head-on.

I absolutely sympathise with the traincrew on the frontline, caught in the 'crossfire'.

 

[Dai Corner]

That's part of the problem, yes.

There are far too many TOCs, I fear including TfW, whose management would rather decimate training (and thus the service) than tackle the issues head-on.

I absolutely sympathise with the traincrew on the frontline, caught in the 'crossfire'.

Welcome to the nationalised railway.

(For anyone who didn't know. the Wales and Borders operator is Transport for Wales Rail Ltd which is wholly owned by the Welsh Government).

 

[craigybagel]

Speaking as a passenger and someone who shares the view that it's a TFW problem, I think that this is A TFW problem. When I used Arriva, even towards the extreme end of the franchise, they were excellent. Generally on time, Capacity was fair, not amazing on some trips but generally did quite well on the coast and prices felt better. Since TFW have come in, fares seem to have risen massively, overcrowding massively increased and I have had more late trips than I have had on time. Clearly, something, somewhere has gone up the wall and whether that is down to current or previous management, it's only since TFW that the issues have come about, especially for North Wales.

I think most poople would suggest otherwise. I can well remember how much complaining there was in the last few years of ATW, and how so many people were counting down the days to their demise. Happily, nothing on the internet disappears forever, and the old ATW Twitter account can be found here, in case people need reminding about how the current issues are nothing new.

As I've menioned on various threads before, TfW have been a lot more willing than ATW to look at problems with the fleet and try and find solutions (see the reintroduction of 37s & MKIIs on Rhymney in 2019 as a very good example).

Unless overnight, someone took away 30 trains and passenger numbers increased by 10%, I do not believe that we can blame the previous franchise for the issues.

Funny you should mention that. The withdrawal of Pacers took away exactly 30 trains! We've also lost the North Wales MKIII set in that time.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the current shortage of stock wasn't caused by the previous franchise itself - but by the terms under which it was awarded, forcing ATW to keep to broadly the same amount of units despite the massive passenger growth that took place across the 15 years. We're still playing catch up today.

There is certainly some issues in TFW. It's one thing to have a problem, it is how you deal with it that counts. You can't just halve a timetable and still be 'reliant on a fair bit of overtime'. What a load of rubbish. Someone in TFW isn't doing their job properly.

Watershed deals with this below.

Yes the franchise may have lost some units but it has also gained many units with the 769s and 153s.

Not as many trains as have left the franchise, and that's before we deal with both how late the 769s arrived and their continuing issues with reliability.

D trains due in soon if they can get the training sorted but what is the betting that during the closure of the Wrex-Bidston line next month, they won't do a crash course training on the D train so that they can be introduced quicker.

That will probably depend on whether or not they can release the staff to carry out said training. Again, see below.

TFW keep wasting capacity in some areas which don't need it but won't provide capacity in areas which do want/need it.

What areas do you have in mind?

No it's not as easy as finding new trains because there aren't nesecerilly more trains out there. What there is though is a good few trains out there which are either with TFW or stored for TFW doing sod all when they could and should be out on the network.

What TFW trains are currently stored doing sod all? And what other trains out there are available which would be suitable for TfW?

Think of it from another perspective. If you have one operator who managed the trains quite well and kept every informed and generally had no issues then overnight, you get a new operator and the trains become frequently late, overcrowded or cancelled. Who are you going to blame for the issues? Given this is now nearly 3 years of this rubbish and we keep being told 'we are doing our best' would you believe it?
From my personal experience, Northern 2016 was in a better place than TFW and that says a lot!

Oh I don't blame the passengers one little bit for being upset with the current situation. I'm just finding it very difficult to match your own perspective with reality.

Unfortunately that's the position a lot of operators find themselves in right now.

Quite a lot of traincrew have either retired or moved to other TOCs or industries during the pandemic, and some have been allowed to 'shield' at home so have lost all their route & traction card. Add on the effect of the 'pingdemic' and it's not hard to see how they might be struggling.

Halving the timetable will almost never halve your traincrew numbers. At best it might save you something like 25% of your traincrew, which in pre-Covid days might have meant getting by without much overtime - whereas today you need lots of overtime even just to cover that.

All true. Throw in the Summer Holidays when all available space for Annual Leave is taken and things get even worse. And its taking longer than ever to replace those staff who as you have correctly pointed out, are no longer with us for various reasons.

The Borderlands line is signed by Shrewsbury guards and Chester drivers and guards. That's a not insignificant number of traincrew to train, each of which have to be released from their normal duties to undertake training. When you're in the above situation that's not easy.

It's even worse than that - not only do you need to release the traincrew for training, you also need to release someone to actually train them; also, as most training at present is being done on a one to one basis that means for every person getting trained, it's two people removed from normal duties that day. Also, the Shrewsbury guards simultaneously need to do their MKIV training, and there's a massive backload of drivers at Chester who need route learning.

Where I do lay some of the blame is with TfW's insistence on following Welsh social distancing regulations (and even then, far more strictly than the law requires) when the relevant traincrew are based in England, which has always had less stringent guidance and law.

I'm not sure if legally they have much choice; they're a company registered in Wales, and that's the rules they need to follow.

Together with how long they took to restart training (with the 'bubble' system), it guaranteed that the training was always going to be strung out and delayed.

They were by no means the last to restart training. Indeed, training was only stopped completely for about 4 months IIRC.

We seem to have a super ranter who can say no good about TFW and makes me wonder if this poster really has much knowledge about the ins and outs and whys and wherefores of the in depth workings of the industry.

I suspect you may well be right.

 

[markymark2000]

Unfortunately that's the position a lot of operators find themselves in right now.

Quite a lot of traincrew have either retired or moved to other TOCs or industries during the pandemic, and some have been allowed to 'shield' at home so have lost all their route & traction card. Add on the effect of the 'pingdemic' and it's not hard to see how they might be struggling.

Halving the timetable will almost never halve your traincrew numbers. At best it might save you something like 25% of your traincrew, which in pre-Covid days might have meant getting by without much overtime - whereas today you need lots of overtime even just to cover that.


The Borderlands line is signed by Shrewsbury guards and Chester drivers and guards. That's a not insignificant number of traincrew to train, each of which have to be released from their normal duties to undertake training. When you're in the above situation that's not easy.

Where I do lay some of the blame is with TfW's insistence on following Welsh social distancing regulations (and even then, far more strictly than the law requires) when the relevant traincrew are based in England, which has always had less stringent guidance and law.

Together with how long they took to restart training (with the 'bubble' system), it guaranteed that the training was always going to be strung out and delayed.

I take your points and where staff have lost all their knowledge (in the official sense), this is certainly difficult.


To cover Borderlands and try to get some trains out for capacity, why not just have 1 train and schedule it up in such a way that it's the same staff who do it regularly and then as more people gain the relevant knowledge. That is how many other industries with such standards would deal with it. Not train up 2 locations worth of guards and drivers. Given the significantly wider benefits, having slightly more restricted staff on the borderlands frees up trains on the much longer routes which need the capacity as a matter of urgency. Since training is slow, once the borderlands lot are sorted, focus everyone else on everything else and then in time when things get easier, train the borderlands lot on the other routes and vice versa. Targetted training is what is needed. You'll never get anything sorted if you are training people at the current speed because not only that, you then have the knowledge retention. No good training two locations worth of staff on the trains as then by the time they are done, the first drivers will be out of knowledge and you'll have to do it again. These D Trains will be rotted by the time they see passenger service.


I fully agree with you on TFWs insistance on rules. Personal experience with that has been so funny. I know that if the train goes into Wales, they would have to stick to rules but on England only routes, go off English rules but no, that would be too easy. Why do things which make life easier when instead they can do their own thing and then complain that it's down to restrictions why things can't be done. As I say, it doesn't matter to them in the offices, if something goes wrong or things get difficult, they run off crying to the Welsh Govt and get the support (whether that be the Welsh Govt sticking up for them or giving financial help). Worse than a kid in greggs.
Maybe if these people in the Cardiff offices got off their behind and took the long slog up the marshes and experienced how that and North Wales copes each day, things would be very different but that doesn't fit the Cardiff centric and 'sit in the office being overpaid to do sod all' mindset.

It's interesting that you point this out. Which fares are you thinking of?

To take an example of a very poor value for money journey to make by rail, a flexible single from Chester to Colwyn Bay in January 2019 was a whopping £21 despite being just 40 miles. Today, two and a half years later, the price is in absolute terms £1.10 lower. The return ticket was £23.10 then, and is £21.90 now, so again is £1.20 lower in cash terms and slightly more in real terms.

I'm not defending charging £19.90 for a one way ride just from Colwyn Bay to Chester, at about 50p per mile it reflects utterly terrible value for money. The return at 28p per mile is still uncompetitive and the service certainly isn't at all good enough to justify such prices, but it's better. However, it's worth noting that the prices have dropped back notably.

Manchester to Chester. £20 return. It wasn't that long ago it was £15. Northern do £13 Northern Only returns so cheaper tickets are possible yet TFW rinse customers because they know they can get away with it. Awful prices though.
Chester to Llandudno is extortionate. £21.90 return. It's only 10p more expensive for a return to Derby. Derby being over 2 hours away and using two different operators. Extremely poor value for money some of the fares.

Are the unions not having an input into COVID restrictions ?

We seem to have a super ranter who can say no good about TFW.

If the unions are, that won't help it but then again, TFW ran by the Welsh Govt which is Labour Ran and Labour would give in to anything unions say. A private company wouldn't give in entirely and would compromise somewhere.
As for 'saying no good'. The staff at Chester are wonderful. Always extremely pleasant and helpful, can't say a bad word about them really. Train staff, I don't know. I haven't seen them really. They all now hide away in the back cab (This was pre covid as well, not just covid related). The issue is, like with the majority of the railway, with people higher up in offices who seemingly don't seem to know what they are doing and are being paid tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of taxpayers money to run a shambles of an operation with no public scrutiny. Northern wasn't this bad and that franchise got taken off them yet TFW get away with it?

 

[Starmill]

Chester to Llandudno is extortionate. £21.90 return.

I'm confused. You said that the prices had increased. The price for this journey has gone down since 2019. Chester to Llandudno is very expensive, but it's not quite as poor value for money as Chester to Colwyn Bay, given they're the same price!

Manchester to Chester. £20 return. It wasn't that long ago it was £15.

The Manchester to Chester return was £15.60 from January 2012. So I quite agree that it has risen much more steeply than general inflation, as a rise of 28.2% in just nine years. If the rise had been limited to general inflation, the price would be appropriately £18.20.

Northern wasn't this bad and that franchise got taken off them yet TFW get away with it?

Technically they exited the contract for financial reasons rather than delivery ones.

 

[PHILIPE]

If the unions are, that won't help it but then again, TFW ran by the Welsh Govt which is Labour Ran and Labour would give in to anything unions say. A private company wouldn't give in entirely and would compromise somewhere.
As for 'saying no good'. The staff at Chester are wonderful. Always extremely pleasant and helpful, can't say a bad word about them really. Train staff, I don't know. I haven't seen them really. They all now hide away in the back cab (This was pre covid as well, not just covid related). The issue is, like with the majority of the railway, with people higher up in offices who seemingly don't seem to know what they are doing and are being paid tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of taxpayers money to run a shambles of an operation with no public scrutiny. Northern wasn't this bad and that franchise got taken off them yet TFW get away with it?

One big difference between ATW and TFW is that ATW only did what their Franchise specified, nothing more, nothing less. Any new initiatives came and funded through the Welsh Government. TFW are trying but because of COVID under very difficult conditions.

 

[craigybagel]

I take your points and where staff have lost all their knowledge (in the official sense), this is certainly difficult.


To cover Borderlands and try to get some trains out for capacity, why not just have 1 train and schedule it up in such a way that it's the same staff who do it regularly and then as more people gain the relevant knowledge. That is how many other industries with such standards would deal with it. Not train up 2 locations worth of guards and drivers. Given the significantly wider benefits, having slightly more restricted staff on the borderlands frees up trains on the much longer routes which need the capacity as a matter of urgency. Since training is slow, once the borderlands lot are sorted, focus everyone else on everything else and then in time when things get easier, train the borderlands lot on the other routes and vice versa. Targetted training is what is needed. You'll never get anything sorted if you are training people at the current speed because not only that, you then have the knowledge retention. No good training two locations worth of staff on the trains as then by the time they are done, the first drivers will be out of knowledge and you'll have to do it again. These D Trains will be rotted by the time they see passenger service.

Actually, that's pretty much what the current plan is to a degree. It's just that with the difficulties in training there aren't enough crew to operate even a low level introduction like this.

That being said, you can only kick the can down the road up to a certain point. Later this year 197 training needs to take place, so ideally you want 230 training out the way to give more space for this to take place.

 

[Watershed]

I'm not sure if legally they have much choice; they're a company registered in Wales, and that's the rules they need to follow.

Not at all; the Welsh Government doesn't have jurisdiction outside of Wales.

The Welsh Regulations specifically say:

These Regulations apply in relation to Wales.

And the English Regulations said (before they were revoked on Monday):

These Regulations extend to England and Wales, and apply—

(a) in England;

Similarly, GWR and Avanti can't say "we're registered in England, so we're not going to follow the Welsh Regulations when our trains are in Wales".

 

[craigybagel]

Not at all; the Welsh Government doesn't have jurisdiction outside of Wales.

The Welsh Regulations specifically say:


And the English Regulations said (before they were revoked on Monday):


Similarly, GWR and Avanti can't say "we're registered in England, so we're not going to follow the Welsh Regulations when our trains are in Wales".

Fair enough. Even if that is the case however, a large amount of all three English depots work involves crossing the border; trying to follow two different sets of rules for training would at best be confusing and at worst slow things down even more. A TfW driver who can't cross the border because they did all their training in England because the rules were less strict is not going to be a very productive driver.

 

[Dai Corner]

One big difference between ATW and TFW is that ATW only did what their Franchise specified, nothing more, nothing less. Any new initiatives came and funded through the Welsh Government. TFW are trying but because of COVID under very difficult conditions.

I doubt if Transport for Wales Rail Ltd do anything significant without the knowledge, approval and, if required, funding of their sole shareholder.

 

[markymark2000]

Funny you should mention that. The withdrawal of Pacers took away exactly 30 trains! We've also lost the North Wales MKIII set in that time.

Also, it's worth pointing out that the current shortage of stock wasn't caused by the previous franchise itself - but by the terms under which it was awarded, forcing ATW to keep to broadly the same amount of units despite the massive passenger growth that took place across the 15 years. We're still playing catch up today.

Which is all well and good but explain then how these issues with TFW predate the pacers being withdrawn. This has been a long standing issue and has only gotten worse. I do not dispute passenger growth over a longer period and I get with no additional trains, issues will come about. Fully, fully understand that. What didn't make sense though was that it was quite quickly after TFW came into play that carriages were vastly reduced and the overcrowding hit silly levels.

Not as many trains as have left the franchise, and that's before we deal with both how late the 769s arrived and their continuing issues with reliability.

How does it work out in terms of carriages? A 769 is obviously 4 carriages which replaces 2 pacers.

As for the 769s, their reliability isn't passengers issue. Why don't we just stop the economy because of an unreliable

That will probably depend on whether or not they can release the staff to carry out said training. Again, see below.

What areas do you have in mind?

175s on Chester to Crewe. Only needs a 153 on it. It's hardly busy. Chester to Liverpool, 153 could also suit. Combined, that is 2 units which can be used for strengthening in other areas. Conwy Valley might as well be replaced by a bus given that is the reality most of the time. That could be another unit saved.

What TFW trains are currently stored doing sod all? And what other trains out there are available which would be suitable for TfW?

There are stored 153s which could be leased by TFW. Isn't there some more 153s due as well which aren't yet in service? Trains doing sod all are the 230s. They will be doing some training but I and probably the 197s though they will need approving and stuff first.
If TFW is that short, hire trains in as per has happened elsewhere. Windermere branch had the train up there. As you have pointed out, the 37s to Rhymney. I'm sure that there will be stock out

It's even worse than that - not only do you need to release the traincrew for training, you also need to release someone to actually train them; also, as most training at present is being done on a one to one basis that means for every person getting trained, it's two people removed from normal duties that day. Also, the Shrewsbury guards simultaneously need to do their MKIV training, and there's a massive backload of drivers at Chester who need route learning.

That I guess then is why I see the issue more than some others being from Chester, I am seeing the never ending cancellations and really poor service. You may not notice it as much in Hereford or whatever but that I presume is why I have the view that I do because I am based in the areas which has the most issues. Whatever the issue, obviously it's something which needs looking at. Maybe the Wrexham-Bidston closure will help things as those drivers can then be training for a bit on other stuff. Shame that Sundays are all voluntary as there is quite a bit of engineering works in Chester coming up over weekends so that could help some backlog.

I'm confused. You said that the prices had increased. The price for this journey has gone down since 2019.

I didn't say that price had increased. The price increases that I have noticed are the England - England ones. Wales ones have reduced yes but still rip off prices.

Actually, that's pretty much what the current plan is to a degree. It's just that with the difficulties in training there aren't enough crew to operate even a low level introduction like this.

That being said, you can only kick the can down the road up to a certain point. Later this year 197 training needs to take place, so ideally you want 230 training out the way to give more space for this to take place.

How many crew does it take for 2 trains? It's not exactly the biggest service in the UK. It is kicking the can down the road but it gives time for the training restrictions to lift to clear some backlog so it's easier to sort things than it is right now. Depending on what time stock becomes available, you could probably even get the D trains to finish earlier and so you have them from start until 7pm then a 150 takes over for the evening as that is what staff are trained on.

 

[Watershed]

A TfW driver who can't cross the border because they did all their training in England because the rules were less strict is not going to be a very productive driver.

The conditions under which you did your training don't affect your ability to work trains once trained!

The bigger issue is that you wouldn't be able to do training on the Borderlands line purely under English Regulations, as obviously half the line is in Wales. That wouldn't stop training happening between Chester and Crewe though, for example, which everyone signs and where there are plenty of spare paths.

How many crew does it take for 2 trains? It's not exactly the biggest service in the UK. It is kicking the can down the road but it gives time for the training restrictions to lift to clear some backlog so it's easier to sort things than it is right now. Depending on what time stock becomes available, you could probably even get the D trains to finish earlier and so you have them from start until 7pm then a 150 takes over for the evening as that is what staff are trained on.

If the traincrew were dedicated to the line, you'd typically expect to need between 3 and 4 crew diagrams per unit. As it is, the diagrams mix Borderlands work with other work (e.g. Chester-Shrewsbury) so it's difficult to untangle.

But at a bare minimum you'd be looking at something like 20-30 drivers, and about the same number of guards.