Oxford Corridor Phase 2 & Platform 5 updates

[The Planner]

Not a lot actually. eg Nothing on where East West Rail might go to or come from; nothing about rail to Thame or beyond 'Oxford East'; only one mention of 'university' which seems odd; or BMW as an origin or destination of travel, or potential provider of e-vehicles or other innovations; etc...

Thame has Haddenham, they aren't ever getting a service back. Too much built on past BMW at Cowley.

 

[Tobbes]

Thame has Haddenham, they aren't ever getting a service back. Too much built on past BMW at Cowley.

How much quicker would Princes Risborough - Oxford be via Thame and Cowley be than via Bicester Village?

 

[The Planner]

How much quicker would Princes Risborough - Oxford be via Thame and Cowley be than via Bicester Village?

Depends on how you were comparing it. Considering it was mainly single track with station loops via Thame and nowhere near the 100mph the Chiltern line is. Measuring it on Google Maps, its 33km/21 miles via Thame. Its 40 minutes now with stops at Haddenham, Bicester Village and Oxford Parkway. You would suspect Thame would have a stop, possibly a parkway at Oxford services, probably Wheatley, BMW/Blackbird Leys and the Science parks. A stop normally costs you 1½ minutes, so 7½/8 gone there. So if you assumed 60mph then 30 minutes, so 10 minutes quicker, 75mph 15 minutes quicker. Its all moot though as we have done this one before, too much built on and Chiltern looked at it and walked away.

 

[Tobbes]

Depends on how you were comparing it. Considering it was mainly single track with station loops via Thame and nowhere near the 100mph the Chiltern line is. Measuring it on Google Maps, its 33km/21 miles via Thame. Its 40 minutes now with stops at Haddenham, Bicester Village and Oxford Parkway. You would suspect Thame would have a stop, possibly a parkway at Oxford services, probably Wheatley, BMW/Blackbird Leys and the Science parks. A stop normally costs you 1½ minutes, so 7½/8 gone there. So if you assumed 60mph then 30 minutes, so 10 minutes quicker, 75mph 15 minutes quicker. Its all moot though as we have done this one before, too much built on and Chiltern looked at it and walked away.

Many thanks - I was just curious in light of the Oxford Council consultation.

 

[The exile]

They are very short of money after their mainstay, dorm accommodation with shared facilities, was non viable for nearly 18 months. So I would be surprised to see a replacement any time soon unless they are donated a suitable building. They are certainly unlikely to be in a position to buy one.

Except doing so will be what the compensation will be based on / intended for.

 

[BrianW]

How much quicker would Princes Risborough - Oxford be via Thame and Cowley be than via Bicester Village?

Depends on how you were comparing it. Considering it was mainly single track with station loops via Thame and nowhere near the 100mph the Chiltern line is. Measuring it on Google Maps, its 33km/21 miles via Thame. Its 40 minutes now with stops at Haddenham, Bicester Village and Oxford Parkway. You would suspect Thame would have a stop, possibly a parkway at Oxford services, probably Wheatley, BMW/Blackbird Leys and the Science parks. A stop normally costs you 1½ minutes, so 7½/8 gone there. So if you assumed 60mph then 30 minutes, so 10 minutes quicker, 75mph 15 minutes quicker. Its all moot though as we have done this one before, too much built on and Chiltern looked at it and walked away.

Maybe heading a bit off-topic now but relating to how things might have been/ might yet be if things were reconsidered with different criteria ...

I have vague recollection of the Chiltern/ Evergreen 3(?) plans/ consultations looking at whether better to reach Oxford via Bicester or Cowley. I agree with The Planner that the route beyond Cowley is too much built on. I seem to recall (from somewhere/ another thread?) that there had been a service between Oxford and Marylebone (or Paddingon) via Thame, though it might have been with a change at Princes Risbough.

I have a 1938 ABC which indicates Oxford (G.W.) From Paddington via Didcot Ordinary Single 13/3 adult, 8/0 child via Thame 11/8 adult, 7/0 child. The train times listed thereunder do not indicate the related routes* (nor stops, though if I put the time to looking up eg Culham or Didcot or Reading or Thame or Princes Risboro I could possibly work it out!). I note that the first train for London departed Oxford 7.10 (arr 9.00) and the next 8.35dep- 9.50arr.

* One train each way is shown as v via Beaconsfield Oxfd 11.20dep- Padd 1.40arr; Padd2.25dep- Oxfd4.45 arr.

That ABC also shows Oxford Another Route (L.M.S.) From Euston, 13/3 adult, 8/0 child [i.e same fare as to Padd via Didcot], first train 7.24dep, 9.53arr.
I imagine these journeys involed a change at Bletchley, but it's not stated, unless I'm missing it!

In passing I note that today it is invariably quicker from Oxford Parkway to London via Oxford; from Bicester (North or Village) to London Marylebone; from Islip depends on time of day, and readiness to change at Oxford. I would imagine that ultimate destination in London will influence choice of route, and/or maybe degree of familiarity with tube connections etc; and best offer of return trains, eg times, frequencies. For me, likelihood of getting a seat is key consideration.

Travel patterns have change hugely up and down over time- commuting, studying, shopping .... I've said it before- praise and sympathy for the planners trying to get it 'right', esp when things take so long (and cost so much) to get from idea to trains running, or plans developed and cancelled.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have vague recollection of the Chiltern/ Evergreen 3(?) plans/ consultations looking at whether better to reach Oxford via Bicester or Cowley. I agree with The Planner that the route beyond Cowley is too much built on. I seem to recall (from somewhere/ another thread?) that there had been a service between Oxford and Marylebone (or Paddingon) via Thame, though it might have been with a change at Princes Risbough.

Yes, but as was discussed here numerous times back when Chiltern’s Evergreen 3 (EG3) was still in the future, the decision to go via a Bicester chord was actually taken and confirmed around about 2003. By the time of the EG3 TWA inquiry that decision was history. It’s a shame most of the weblinks to EG3 evidence papers are now stale, especially as one particular report was specifically about route options, but I’ve got the eventual inspectors report saved and “via Thame” was not considered at that time, they just state that it had been ruled out much earlier.

I expect that’s much of the reason why it isn’t mentioned in the latest Oxford area consultations.

 

[BrianW]

Yes, but as was discussed here numerous times back when Chiltern’s Evergreen 3 (EG3) was still in the future, the decision to go via a Bicester chord was actually taken and confirmed around about 2003. By the time of the EG3 TWA inquiry that decision was history. It’s a shame most of the weblinks to EG3 evidence papers are now stale, especially as one particular report was specifically about route options, but I’ve got the eventual inspectors report saved and “via Thame” was not considered at that time, they just state that it had been ruled out much earlier.

I expect that’s much of the reason why it isn’t mentioned in the latest Oxford area consultations.

Thank you swt_passenger- it's good to have a gentle reminder and context. I find it hard to look back to what has been said before, even when numerous times before, although I know that it is possible to search for earlier threads. I note, and bow before your forum involvement of 28,503 messages since 2010 (only 827 since 2017 for me), which helps comparative newbies like me- thank you. I recognise that not everyone involved in writing reports, or considering them, has the same access to institutional memory and support your observation regarding what may be seen as historical papers which ought to be held in some archive for those seeking to understand why particular decisions were made.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you swt_passenger- it's good to have a gentle reminder and context. I find it hard to look back to what has been said before, even when numerous times before, although I know that it is possible to search for earlier threads. I note, and bow before your forum involvement of 28,503 messages since 2010 (only 827 since 2017 for me), which helps comparative newbies like me- thank you. I recognise that not everyone involved in writing reports, or considering them, has the same access to institutional memory and support your observation regarding what may be seen as historical papers which ought to be held in some archive for those seeking to understand why particular decisions were made.

Yes, I’ve just been searching online again and even the TWA inspectors report isn’t coming up. DFT seem to have binned anything before about 2016, and I’m getting the impression that the TWA inquiry had a dedicated website set up while it was ongoing, but that’s subsequently been lost. You’d have thought it would be a bit more permanent than it actually is…

 

[Mikey C]

The Phoenix Trail using the intact alignment is a popular cycling and walking route between Thame and (nearly) Princes. The 280 bus seems to provide a decent enough connection between Thame and Haddenham & Thame Parkway, for the number of people living in Thame who don't drive to the station anyway.

 

[Benjwri]

Yes, I’ve just been searching online again and even the TWA inspectors report isn’t coming up. DFT seem to have binned anything before about 2016, and I’m getting the impression that the TWA inquiry had a dedicated website set up while it was ongoing, but that’s subsequently been lost. You’d have thought it would be a bit more permanent than it actually is…

Everything the government bins is still available on the National Archive. I'm not 100% sure but I believe this might be what you're looking for.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives...0120124/chiltern-railways-decision-letter.pdf

 

[swt_passenger]

Everything the government bins is still available on the National Archive. I'm not 100% sure but I believe this might be what you're looking for.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives...0120124/chiltern-railways-decision-letter.pdf

It’s one of the individual supporting papers presented to the inspector I was after. The letter you’ve found i think is referring to the short delay when they had to re-address certain aspects.

(But by the way I’m only able to view that one page, should the whole letter not be archived, or it might be my iPad not playing…)

But this is also getting well off topic though, so we should probably wind this up.

 

[Benjwri]

It’s one of the individual supporting papers presented to the inspector I was after. The letter you’ve found i think is referring to the short delay when they had to re-address certain aspects.

Ah interesting, the full inspectors report is here: https://webarchive.nationalarchives...ster-to-oxford-improvements-inspectors-report
Couldn't find the supporting paper, although you may be able to find it with a specific enough search term in the top right. Unfortunately anything I could think of came up with more than 15 million results!

But this is also getting well off topic though, so we should probably wind this up.

Yeah good point

 

[Halish Railway]

Quick question - Has there been any suggestion of if the London to Cheltenham services will be extended to Worcester / Great Malvern / Hereford during the extensive blockades required for this rebuilding?

 

[The Planner]

Quick question - Has there been any suggestion of if the London to Cheltenham services will be extended to Worcester / Great Malvern / Hereford during the extensive blockades required for this rebuilding?

Trains turning at Hanborough last I heard.

 

[Halish Railway]

Trains turning at Hanborough last I heard.

I think they should be able to do that and extend the London to Cheltenham services to Worcester and beyond. Not running various services around Oxford should free up sufficient Networker Turbos to run a shuttle from Worcester to Hanborough and enough IETs to extend the Cheltenham service to Worcester and beyond to keep a direct service between Worcester / Great Malvern / Hereford and London / Reading.

 

[class ep-09]

I think they should be able to do that and extend the London to Cheltenham services to Worcester and beyond. Not running various services around Oxford should free up sufficient Networker Turbos to run a shuttle from Worcester to Hanborough and enough IETs to extend the Cheltenham service to Worcester and beyond to keep a direct service between Worcester / Great Malvern / Hereford and London / Reading.

Other option would be to run 800’s Cheltenham services to Worcester / Gt Makvern / Hereford , then make one / two trips to Hanborough and back , and then return to London via Cheltenham for servicing .

If all shuttles between Hanborough and Worcester ( and beyound ) were to be covered by Turbos , I am not sure if Oxford depot , which is the only one signing North Cots and Turbos , could cover the jobs , but I may be wrong ( they won’t have much to do during blockade ).

There of course would issue of servicing Turbos - they can be refuelled / cleaned in London Middlands depot at Worcester ( which happened before many times ) but any other servicing needs to be done at St Philips Marsh ( or Reading ?) , which again would require Turbos to make few trips to Hanborough and back, and then run ECS or in service to Bristol ( Reading ) .
All good , but the only depots that signs the route and traction between Worcester and Bristol TM ( or Reading ) are Gloucester GWR and ( I think ) Bristol GWR ( Parkway and Temple Meads ).

No drivers at Worcester sign Turbos at present but that may change .

I guess we need to wait and see .

 

[Class 170101]

I seem to recall only a limited number of Worcester drivers sign Class 80x and the route between Worcester and London via Kemble.

 

[class ep-09]

I seem to recall only a limited number of Worcester drivers sign Class 80x and the route between Worcester and London via Kemble.

All Worcester drivers sign 800’s as that is the only traction they drive ( HSS & GWR drivers ).
In fact that was the first depot in the country where 100% of drivers signed that traction.
As for Kemble - all HSS (20+) sign it and around half of GWR ( for now ) .
More to follow as it is one of the core routes , subject to ongoing route learning .

 

[RPI]

I seem to recall only a limited number of Worcester drivers sign Class 80x and the route between Worcester and London via Kemble.

Worcester drivers could just work between Worcester and Gloucester if needs be

 

[Oxfordblues]

It's been confirmed today that Botley Road under the railway bridge will be closed from 7 January for up to 52 weeks. Network Rail agreed to an 8-week delay from 12 November to cater for Christmas shopping. Access will be maintained for cyclists and pedestrians through the adjacent tunnel. This will no doubt upset many motorists, but it's good news for us cyclists!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

It's been confirmed today that Botley Road under the railway bridge will be closed from 7 January for up to 52 weeks. Network Rail agreed to an 8-week delay from 12 November to cater for Christmas shopping. Access will be maintained for cyclists and pedestrians through the adjacent tunnel. This will no doubt upset many motorists, but it's good news for us cyclists!

I wonder what will happen to buses as a result.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder what will happen to buses as a result.

They’ll run in separated sections either side of the bridge, with a walk between. It’s in an Oxford council announcement somewhere:

Pedestrian and cycle access through the closure points is planned to be maintained throughout – although the specific route through may change. It is planned that buses will operate to either side of the closure so those on through-journeys will need to do a short walk and change buses.

Plans for Botley Road traffic closure set out with Network Rail to reveal more in mid-November

Updated 7 November 2022Network Rail has issued an update about its plans to replace the rail bridge over the Botley Road in Oxford, as part of its wider project to expand the station on the western side.Detailed discussions with the county council led to the conclusion that there should be a...

news.oxfordshire.gov.uk

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They’ll run in separated sections either side of the bridge, with a walk between. It’s in an Oxford council announcement somewhere.

What about routes 400 and ST2, that go cross-city? Surely they'll do a (long I know) diversion via the A34 then either Woodstock or Abingdon roads?

 

[swt_passenger]

What about routes 400 and ST2, that go cross-city? Surely they'll do a (long I know) diversion via the A34 then either Woodstock or Abingdon roads?

I’ve no idea about individual routes.

 

[JamesT]

What about routes 400 and ST2, that go cross-city? Surely they'll do a (long I know) diversion via the A34 then either Woodstock or Abingdon roads?

Presumably that depends on the importance of the Botley Road stops to those services compared to those going end to end? If the end points are the most important they'll reroute, but otherwise they'll split.
I'd be more interested to find out how the split services handle ticketing. It would be decidedly unfair if a journey that used to be one fare became two through no fault of the passenger.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Presumably that depends on the importance of the Botley Road stops to those services compared to those going end to end? If the end points are the most important they'll reroute, but otherwise they'll split.
I'd be more interested to find out how the split services handle ticketing. It would be decidedly unfair if a journey that used to be one fare became two through no fault of the passenger.

Splitting the 400 into two separate routes would be utter stupidity.

What about all the students who study in Harcourt Hill and live in the Headington area? I bet they'll love having to change buses!

 

[JamesT]

Splitting the 400 into two separate routes would be utter stupidity.

What about all the students who study in Harcourt Hill and live in the Headington area? I bet they'll love having to change buses!

Lunacy? Consider that the buses going up and down Botley Road will be able to be nice and quick as there won't be queues of cars trying to get into the city centre.
Compared to a detour that is 2-3 times the distance and likely to be caught in congestion at peak times, it may well be the most attractive option.
Also, the extra time needed for the detour presumably requires additional stock to run the service at the current frequency. When the bus companies struggle to resource their existing operations, I suspect they're unlikely to want to do anything that needs more.

 

[BrianW]

Splitting the 400 into two separate routes would be utter stupidity.

What about all the students who study in Harcourt Hill and live in the Headington area? I bet they'll love having to change buses!

Students changing buses- whatever next? Expression 'lessons in life' comes to mind?

I have long held the view myself that all traffic should be kept out of the centre of Oxford. (So I would consider not rebuilding the rail bridge!)
Bus 'termini' would be at the station, St Giles, The Plain and Folly Bridge. There are Park & Rides in five broadly equivalent directions from which frequent buses run.
There could be electric/hydrogen buses for less able folk to penetrate the centre (and maybe linking the central termini?)

Great opportunity missed for a green, pollution-free, cycle- and pedestrian- friendly city centre- and millions of pounds cheaper too.

 

[fishwomp]

Lunacy? Consider that the buses going up and down Botley Road will be able to be nice and quick as there won't be queues of cars trying to get into the city centre.
Compared to a detour that is 2-3 times the distance and likely to be caught in congestion at peak times, it may well be the most attractive option.

I'd think so too! Botley Road is a disaster due to the Westgate and its parking. I suppose this is rather bad news for Abingdon Road - the Westgate traffic will go there instead. Botley Road will be very very different during this!