Paper season tickets to be phased out?

[js1000]

So I was at the ticket office yesterday to buy a monthly season and was informed that Northern Trains (at least anyway) were "looking" to phase these out by the end of this year. I know the "paperless railway" has been discussed for many years and debated on this forum (the feeling is most on here are generally in favour of retaining the option of paper tickets - although this is some what skewed by many wanting paper tickets simply for "souvenir" purposes as rail enthusiasts) but no one has generally believed paper tickets will eventually die due to their simplicity.

After being reticent for a number of years, I took the plunge and used an ITSO smartcard only a few months ago. Sadly, my experience was one of many errors and problems, including:

• Loading the season ticket to the smartcard via NFC on my phone would often not work and require multiple attempts.
• Problems with the TOC's app. One such problem was that it showed the weekly season ticket as being expired on the day of expiry. Ironically, and to my amazement, Northern released an update on Android this month which said it "fixed an issue where tickets are expiring early". There are problems across multiple TOCs.
• The fragmentation of multiple smartcards for different TOCs is totally bonkers. There should be one rail smartcard across England. Having separate smartcards for each TOC just means doubling up on back of house technical support and less ability to disseminate known technical glitches to all TOCs and operators effectively.

Aside from the technical problems, there are a few more practical reasons why I prefer paper season tickets:

• I hate the fact smartcards cannot see when the ticket expires simply by looking at it as is the case with paper ticket. It's a tried and tested method and indisputable to ticket inspectors. With weekly season tickets it is easy to forget when the ticket expires without having to check the app.
• Handheld scanners railway staff have to scan smartcards are often glitchy at best. An interaction uses consists of them doing an awkward dance with the their palm over your card to get it to scan. ~3 years on from smartcards being introduced in Northern England I am still amazed these issues are allowed to persist.
• I can't help but feel smartcards are a smokescreen to cut jobs in ticket offices and worsening customer service on the railways. On the occasion I have invited for a smartcard at the ticket office I feel like remarking "but with paper tickets I am helping keep you in your job". I feel there is an element of turkeys voting for Christmas with smartcards when ticket staff encourage them.

Outside of London, my experience is that smartcards are not very smart and there is still shoddy implementation, particularly in Northern England where ticket barriers are not ubiquitous. Getting rid of paper season tickets feels like yet another retrograde step by the railway industry that only perpetuates the feeling of declining customer service and deterring passengers from using trains.

Would be interested in peoples' thoughts on this issue before considering whether to raise my concerns with the TOC. I can't help but feel Northern being owned by the DfT will mean this will be the test bed for getting rid of paper season tickets. I've left a poll although I appreciate many on here are rail enthusiasts and railway staff as opposed to every day commuters.

 

[JonathanH]

There are clear advantages of putting season tickets on smartcards for the operators and passengers. The operators have much more access to information about use of the ticket, which barriers are used, the times people travel and how they use the ticket. For passengers, there is some convenience of not having paper tickets fade or need to pass them through barriers. For both, it is much easier to replace and cancel lost tickets.

The change is only one way.

I hate the fact smartcards cannot see when the ticket expires simply by looking at it as is the case with paper ticket. It's a tried and tested method and indisputable to ticket inspectors.

On the contrary, all the ticket inspector needs to do is scan the ticket. The assessment of validity is made by their machine. Because the smartcard is registered, if it is invalid, the back office department can track any discrepency in the use of the smartcard. Moving the point at which the ticket is effectively checked from the inspector to the back office reduces conflict on the train.

 

[Scott1]

I've not had any issues with passengers using Smart Cards, and recommend then. The only thin I suggest to people is to save on their phone or in there diary the expiry date. Paper tickets are no use if lost as we can't block them so if you lose them that's it, and if the magnetic strip fails may have to be replaced, especially if your station has a gate line that gets busy. For some people this happens on a weekly basis!

Checking them in my phone is no slower than reading, and easier than some of the annual ones which were barely legable towards the end.

 

[Trainfan2019]

I would really like to be able to have a smartcard season ticket but how would it work at stations without barriers? My local station hasn't barriers but the station where I work has barriers. How would the barriers know which station you really started from if there are only barriers reading the ticket at your destination station?

I have had weekly and monthly paper season tickets pre-covid but they're hassle. Many a time the barriers have damaged the magnetic strip making the ticket unusable. I then have to queue at the ticket office (if I have time before work) for them to print a replacement.

Also with paper season tickets isn't there some strange rule that you can't buy a weekly ticket before mid-day if you need to use it that day or something like that? Or is it with monthly tickets that you can't buy them in advance?

Currently, I just have a daily return ticket on my phone as then I don't have to queue anywhere to get a ticket each day. The sooner that there is some form of national rail smartcard season ticket system the better and be able to renew online like I used to do with stagecoach buses.

 

[[.n]]

Smartcards don't have universal cross-TOC acceptability still

Smartcards don't convey easily readable information just by looking at them (e.g validity, what route its for [I have multiple seasons], who the ticket is supposed to used by

AFAICR you still require the photocard (I may be wrong with this)

Smartcards are as easily damaged as paper tickets. Card clash is still an issue.

The bit about records is laughable - for at least one of my smartcards on receipt it noted that I had to write down the number as there was no central record of it if I lost it!

I like my paper season tickets

 

[js1000]

I've not had any issues with passengers using Smart Cards, and recommend then. The only thin I suggest to people is to save on their phone or in there diary the expiry date. Paper tickets are no use if lost as we can't block them so if you lose them that's it, and if the magnetic strip fails may have to be replaced, especially if your station has a gate line that gets busy. For some people this happens on a weekly basis!

Checking them in my phone is no slower than reading, and easier than some of the annual ones which were barely legable towards the end.

I can understand why smartcards may be attractive for an annual season ticket holder due to increased durability over paper tickets. But as some who has never bought an annual season ticket and only monthly and weekly ones, the advantages of smartcards versus paper are minimal to non-existent. As stated in my original post, you can quickly check when the ticket is valid for - this is clearly far more helpful for weekly and monthly tickets as opposed to annual tickets.

 

[YorksLad12]

ITSO simple? Not really, no

I may have mentioned in the past of my hatred of the way accounts have to be created for each media type, none of which connect to each other. Here in Metro-land we have the MCard smartcard, plus an MCard app. You need to create an account to use the app but there's no way to connect your MCard to it in order to find out how many, for example, day tickets you have left on it.

When you buy a ticket from LNER you can have an app-based ticket, the card tickets, a pdf... better, but you have to choose electronic or card when you check out. I think it should be up to the customer to decide what they want when they want it. Paper tickets aren't great when you flash your reservation slip at the guard (as happened to someone today - mine was a combined ticket, phew).

But to answer your poll; I'd go with smartcards if they can ever be made to do what we want them to, just to save on the waste of a one-shot ticket. Of course, they are now 10 years too late thanks to app-based ticketing!

 

[43096]

There are clear advantages of putting season tickets on smartcards for the operators and passengers. The operators have much more access to information about use of the ticket, which barriers are used, the times people travel and how they use the ticket. For passengers, there is some convenience of not having paper tickets fade or need to pass them through barriers.

On the other side, there's a greater ability for disreputable train companies to screw over their season ticket holders when they claim delay repay.

 

[philjo]

For a number of years I used to have an annual season ticket between 2 Hertfordshire stations on the GN route but once or twice a week would need to go on the fast train to the London office for which work would pay the additional travel - the corporate travel agent booking system only issued paper tickets for collection via TOD.
Not sure how combining an annual season plus anytime day travelcard would work on a smartcard. I.e Touch in using season ticket. Then touch out in London using the day travelcard on the same card. Or not touching out because you use the paper travelcard. So until that scenario can easily be handled a smartcard is not a feasible option for many travellers.

 

[Scott1]

I would really like to be able to have a smartcard season ticket but how would it work at stations without barriers? My local station hasn't barriers but the station where I work has barriers. How would the barriers know which station you really started from if there are only barriers reading the ticket at your destination station?

In my patch you tap in on a platform validator on open stations. There's a few exceptions for the really tiny stations. These are set up on the system so that it knows you can not tap in, and it let's you out at the destination as usual.

 

[AGH]

Used the Northern smart card for over a year. Very few problems. Always renew at the station and I get a paper receipt which shows the destination and validity. Always works and some operators can't be bothered checking it although the tap in out machines I note are being installed and have to use them at Deansgate. My photo card was over 30 years old and never questioned so paper tickets weren't bullet proof either. Much prefer the smart card

 

[yorksrob]

Phasing out paper tickets is a perennial hobby horse of the DfT, which seems to divert a considerable amount of their time and effort (which could otherwise be spent improving services).

 

[DH1Commuter]

Phones break. Batteries die. Paper tickets are beautifully simple.

 

[Ianno87]

Phones break. Batteries die. Paper tickets are beautifully simple.

Paper tickets get lost, put in the washing machine, worn out, etc.

 

[stephen rp]

If it's anything like football season tickets....

Premier League want everyone to have the ticket on their phone (which works either with NFC or a barcode). My company phone doesn't allow even banking apps and I'm not buying another just for this. So I have to get a "print at home" ticket - club sends an email to tell me it's ready then I have to log on to tick a box to get them to send me an email with the ticket to print out, inlcuding a QR code - so I can use the QR email on the phone to get in without printing the ticket.

Brave new world... Can't we just use the chip in the vaccine to do all this?

 

[paul1609]

Smartcards don't have universal cross-TOC acceptability still

Smartcards don't convey easily readable information just by looking at them (e.g validity, what route its for [I have multiple seasons], who the ticket is supposed to used by

AFAICR you still require the photocard (I may be wrong with this)

Smartcards are as easily damaged as paper tickets. Card clash is still an issue.

The bit about records is laughable - for at least one of my smartcards on receipt it noted that I had to write down the number as there was no central record of it if I lost it!

I like my paper season tickets

Cross acceptance of Smartcards is getting there (finally) my Southeastern Key also works on GTR, Southwestern, Greater Anglia, Go Ahead Buses in the South and throughout London with a travelcard.

 

[Deerfold]

ITSO simple? Not really, no

I may have mentioned in the past of my hatred of the way accounts have to be created for each media type, none of which connect to each other. Here in Metro-land we have the MCard smartcard, plus an MCard app. You need to create an account to use the app but there's no way to connect your MCard to it in order to find out how many, for example, day tickets you have left on it.

They could be better integrated but the MCard App reads and writes to an MCard - you do need NFC, though. The MCard Mobile App separately keeps tickets for use with your phone.

Annoyingly, neither can cope with an Adult bus and train off-peak day ticket. The Mobile app allows the Family and Group versions of this ticket and a variety of peak version, both allow bus-only tickets and bus and train season tickets.

Apparently adding it is a "technical issue" but Metro aren't willing to be any more forthcoming - it has to be bought in advance pre-dated from a staffed rail station or on-train or from one of the 5 locations in the county that still sell the scratch-off version.

 

[JonathanH]

On the other side, there's a greater ability for disreputable train companies to screw over their season ticket holders when they claim delay repay.

I think it would also allow 'automatic' delay repay. Isnt that what they set up on the c2c route with their smartcard?

 

[E759]

On the Bank Holiday Monday just gone I was travelling on Southern using their KeyGo smartcard. I was shocked that one OBS actually scanned my smartcard. Normally they just shrug and move on!

Annual Smartcard Season Problem: 2 months into my last Annual Season I unexpectedly quit my job. A few months later I was finally able to get the 10 months of the £3,500 ticket remaining refunded. The season remains on the card to this day as "Blocked".

KeyGo Problems (so far!):
Being charged for when you Tap In not when the first available train after Tap In departs. I.e. Tap In 08:58 train departure 09:03 hence being charged the incorrect fare.
Abandoned journey en route due to major signalling failure stopping all trains for around FIVE hours. I've no idea what the correct KeyGo procedure for these situation is but I got a full ticket refund, plus an extra 5 pence, via Delay Repay...
RRB - Best approach seems to buy a paper ticket otherwise I can't see how the journey will charge correctly and no doubt a load of missed Taps will be detected.
Missing Taps Resolution uses really confusing terminology. And can determine a Tap In as a Tap Out whereas you actually missed the Tap Out so need to provide a fictitious Tap In the resolve. Confusing!

But the biggest problems are not being able to use Key smartcard most of the time: Outboundary Day Travelcards not supported and most of my journeys are cross London with multiple train operators (for which etickets aren't available either LOL). So I always smile would I read the future is smartcards. But I'm smiling more now that people are saying the future is eticketing.

Something I've noticed recently on LNER, and mentioned elsewhere, is how few paper tickets are now presented. I'm sure I've detected sighs of frustration from younger TM when I present a few paper split tickets with an origin/destination well outside of their patch. Aztec scanner does not compute!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Smartcards don't have universal cross-TOC acceptability still

Smartcards don't convey easily readable information just by looking at them (e.g validity, what route its for [I have multiple seasons], who the ticket is supposed to used by

AFAICR you still require the photocard (I may be wrong with this)

Smartcards are as easily damaged as paper tickets. Card clash is still an issue.

The bit about records is laughable - for at least one of my smartcards on receipt it noted that I had to write down the number as there was no central record of it if I lost it!

I like my paper season tickets

Yes Smartcards do have universal acceptence, franchises were amended in 2018 to provide this. Yes there is a central record provided by RDG.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

For a normal season, I would have thought that a plastic card is by far the most durable medium.

It also doesn't matter if and where it can be validated. You can see what's on it at a ticket machine or with an app, or on the web. probably also at a ticket office. It can be replaced easily if lost or damaged.

I think the problem comes when there are features that won't work on *any* rail ITSO card, like KeyGo and similar, or any product where validation somewhere is essential for you to have a ticket at all, or to have the right fare charged.

This largely works in London and other major cities around the world - there is no reason for even the smallest station not to have a validator device.

The remaining problems are political - any simple ticket should work with any card, including Railcard or other discounts.

We're there now with the any card part, we just need all possible journeys to be made available.

There is no reason not to extend the same to bus ITSO cards, who in turn could load rail products.

At the same time, eTickets are perhaps more suitable for singles and returns, maybe flexi seasons, but the choice needs to be there, people can't be forced to have a compatible phone.

 

[PeterC]

KeyGo Problems (so far!):
Being charged for when you Tap In not when the first available train after Tap In departs. I.e. Tap In 08:58 train departure 09:03 hence being charged the incorrect fare.
Abandoned journey en route due to major signalling failure stopping all trains for around FIVE hours. I've no idea what the correct KeyGo procedure for these situation is but I got a full ticket refund, plus an extra 5 pence, via Delay Repay...
RRB - Best approach seems to buy a paper ticket otherwise I can't see how the journey will charge correctly and no doubt a load of missed Taps will be detected.
Missing Taps Resolution uses really confusing terminology. And can determine a Tap In as a Tap Out whereas you actually missed the Tap Out so need to provide a fictitious Tap In the resolve. Confusing!

Tap in times is down to gate/reader programming. LUL manage to programme gates to allow for this at the extremities of their system

Missing taps is an issue with Oyster too. I touched out at a freestanding reader not knowing that the journey had timed out so a "new journey" was started. That couldn't be corrected online and the help desk staff didn't seem to be aware that some stations were ungated and didn't understand the issue

Biggest problem that I ever had was with season ticket loans and my employer not trusting us with cheques to buy an Oyster travel card and sending paper tickets that failed after a couple of months regular use at the gatelines.

 

[tarq]

Annoyingly, neither can cope with an Adult bus and train off-peak day ticket. The Mobile app allows the Family and Group versions of this ticket and a variety of peak version, both allow bus-only tickets and bus and train season tickets.

Apparently adding it is a "technical issue" but Metro aren't willing to be any more forthcoming - it has to be bought in advance pre-dated from a staffed rail station or on-train or from one of the 5 locations in the county that still sell the scratch-off version.

I find it hard to believe that Metro can provide offpeak versions of the group and family tickets but not the individual ones. It’s arguably the most useful ticket in their portfolio and the hardest to buy.

 

[Merseysider]

I don’t expect paper season tickets to die off just yet.

I would prefer to use neither; instead I would like to see e-tickets issued with a barcode/QR/Aztec code that could be scanned.

There would be ways of having it linked to a photo, if needed.

Not a fan of paper tickets, as mentioned above they fade over time/stop working/both. Teething problems with some smartcards are still persisting & I’ve found others, such as the Merseyrail/Merseytravel one, to be more hassle than they’re worth.

 

[Wallsendmag]

For a number of years I used to have an annual season ticket between 2 Hertfordshire stations on the GN route but once or twice a week would need to go on the fast train to the London office for which work would pay the additional travel - the corporate travel agent booking system only issued paper tickets for collection via TOD.
Not sure how combining an annual season plus anytime day travelcard would work on a smartcard. I.e Touch in using season ticket. Then touch out in London using the day travelcard on the same card. Or not touching out because you use the paper travelcard. So until that scenario can easily be handled a smartcard is not a feasible option for many travellers.

With a season or Travelcard thres no requirement to touch in or out. In the scenario above the relevent products on your card would be read.

I don’t expect paper season tickets to die off just yet.

I would prefer to use neither; instead I would like to see e-tickets issued with a barcode/QR/Aztec code that could be scanned.

There would be ways of having it linked to a photo, if needed.

Not a fan of paper tickets, as mentioned above they fade over time/stop working/both. Teething problems with some smartcards are still persisting & I’ve found others, such as the Merseyrail/Merseytravel one, to be more hassle than they’re worth.

LNER already sell season eTickets

 

[RPI]

Phones break. Batteries die. Paper tickets are beautifully simple.

Not sure of the relevance to smart cards?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not sure of the relevance to smart cards?

None whatsoever as Smartcards last up to 10 years

 

[Snow1964]

Paper tickets expiry date can be read by customer in under 1 second.

Smart card expiry cannot be seen unless you use alternative like remembering to have a mobile with you, and open an app, or find a piece of paper where you wrote it, which is considerably slower and more work.

Smart cards only really benefit the issuer, not the customer.

Of course, there is a bribe to use them (some cheaper tickets, and multiple date (non consecutive days) tickets are only available if you use them.

But biggest gripe is stations without readers (or not working readers ) at every entrances and exits, so can’t touch in/out. Not a problem with paper season ticket.

 

[johncrossley]

But the biggest problems are not being able to use Key smartcard most of the time: Outboundary Day Travelcards not supported

You can now load Outboundary Day Travelcards to a smartcard. Southern/Thameslink only allow you to do that at the ticket machine, but other TOCs let you do that using the NFC facility on your phone through ticket apps, such as EMR.

 

[RPI]

Paper tickets expiry date can be read by customer in under 1 second.

Smart card expiry cannot be seen unless you use alternative like remembering to have a mobile with you, and open an app, or find a piece of paper where you wrote it, which is considerably slower and more work.

Smart cards only really benefit the issuer, not the customer.

Of course, there is a bribe to use them (some cheaper tickets, and multiple date (non consecutive days) tickets are only available if you use them.

But biggest gripe is stations without readers (or not working readers ) at every entrances and exits, so can’t touch in/out. Not a problem with paper season ticket.

Yes, but if you buy an annual season paper ticket and lose it you have to pay for a replacement and only get (I think) 2 replacements a year, if you lose your smart card it gets cancelled, similar to a credit card and you get a replacement.

Fraud is also easy with a paper ticket, less so with a smart card