Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

[miami]

To me this is a silly line to take, and furthers my view that some here are looking for problems which aren’t really there. At the end of the day it’s all simply land, and I have no problem with it being used in the most sensible way for a given situation and time. It seems to be this rigid viewpoint which is upsetting people.

Parking on a road along side a pavement allows sharing between the car user (who can open the door), and the pedestrian (who can walk along the pavement)

Parking on a pavement prevents use by the pedestrian

How does a pedestrian that encounters a parked car blocking their way "use" that space?

 

[AM9]

Still really confused why the presense or not of a pavement affects parking. ...

It doesn't of course and it's off topic for this thread. Just more whataboutery to divert the discussion away from the real issue.

 

[AM9]

A road near me has a continuous line of parked cars most of the time. It has a footway barely 2ft wide. Even so one or two still feel it is OK to bump up two wheels onto the footway so that "their" car is less likely to lose a wing mirror.

So it seems that to some motorists, a mirror is of greater importance than a person's safety. Thanks for reporting another prime example of selfish motorists' parking habits.

 

[AM9]

They're blocking the way of pedestrians more than the pavement parkers in most cases. In the real world these things aren't the massive problems people are making them out to be. Walking along the section of my road with no pavements with a pushchair is not a problem. The most awkward thing is actually speed bumps, as they're ones which extend the full width of the road with no gap at the sides.

In the real world it does adversely affect many people, which is why the subject has attracted the attention of the Transport select committee, who seem inclined to do something about it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In the real world it does adversely affect many people, which is why the subject has attracted the attention of the Transport select committee, who seem inclined to do something about it.

Agreed, it affects a great many people, to differing degrees, depending upon their personal circumstances and location.
It receives very little attention because, 'well what's the point in reporting it, nothing will be done'. Further, the people making the decisions on regulation / levels of enforcement are generally going to be guilty of the same bad habits, 'there but for the grace of god go I'.

Stepping around a single badly parked car on a residential cul-de-sac is different than doing so on a busy road. Doing so a hundred times over a decent length walk increases the risk considerably. YES people do walk as a means of transport, not just round the corner!

Stepping around a single badly parked car for a fully sighted, fully mobile person is a rather different experience to that faced by a registered blind person, or a wheelchair user, or a pushchair pusher, or a mobility impaired person. When a person 'just pops their car onto the pavement' do they really think who is likely to be going past whilst their car is there?

I remain of the view that a large number of motorists simply 'pop it on the pavement' out of ingrained habit. No thought process beyond that at all. The evidence is my own experience on a daily basis.

 

[AM9]

Neither have I, but it happens. There’s a village near me where it’s quite common to drive through and see wing mirrors lying in the road.

Your comment is rather revealing though, in that you seem completely able to entertain any view of the world other than your own, and simply because something isn’t a problem for you seemingly means it isn’t for anyone else either.

It’s the same sort of attitude which advocates how everyone should lump a particular type of train seat, yet we then find out how a person advocating this will themselves make use of declassified first when they travel to avoid what’s good for everyone else.

I’ve seen nothing more convincing here than “pavements are for pedestrians”. No doubt there’s people who will scratch cars that are on a pavement parked causing no problem other than that it upsets someone’s view of the world.

You really should give up trying to portray me as a motorist/commuter hater, it is just comes across as so petulant. It is also quite inappropriate, and doesn't upset me as it shows that you don't really have anything better to say.
In my working life I was a commuter, - and a season ticket holder shock horror! I am also a motorist in the general sense of the word, I drive on motorways and all other kinds of roads and of course I park my car at the end of every journey. Every house that I have chosen since I was 30 when I started to drive has been selected to be suitable to park a car at. Nobody owes me the right to obstruct their mobility for my convenience and I accept that as it is how the world works for most. Those that live where parking can be less convenient have to accept it, just as I have accepted waking up to the background roar of 'commuter motorists' in their vehicles streaming up and down the M1 and M25. Note., I have travelled between M1Js6-7 and M25Js21a-22 less than 10 times each in the last 30 years, so why should I have to suffer it!
Parking is one of those things that some motorists seem to grow a second head for and inconsiderate parking is the cause of much suffering. Those that see it as OK really should stand back and look at the 'real world' picture and not from the padded metal box world that they command.

 

[py_megapixel]

The Department for Transport appears to be consulting on whether the laws concerning parking on pedestrian pavements should be changed throughout the UK:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/managing-pavement-parking

We are proposing 3 options:

1. Improving the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) process, under which local authorities can already prohibit pavement parking.
2. A legislative change to allow local authorities with civil parking enforcement powers to enforce against ‘unnecessary obstruction of the pavement’.
3. A legislative change to introduce a London-style pavement parking prohibition throughout England.

In my area, pavement parking is a significant issue, even where space exists on the road. So I definitely think a legislative change is in order.

My preference is for option 3. It seems to me that options 1 and 2 are aimed at simply giving local authorities the theoretical ability to make rules against pavement parking (and "unnecessary obstruction of the pavement" is quite vague which is a problem) - and unfortunately, given the patchiness of such enforcement by local authorities already, I have little faith that many of them will actually choose - or budget - to bother with it.

At least if there is a legislative change across the whole country, parking on the pavement is unambiguously illegal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My view on this is 3 using the following process.

1. Set a date 1-2 years or so hence from which all pavement parking and loading will be prohibited (enforcement being done by whoever would enforce yellow lines on the same road). Such applications would be given a deadline date to be processed by the start, but applications would be possible on an ongoing basis for later processing.
2. Lots of publicity requesting people to apply if they feel a location should be exempt. Councils would handle these exemptions.
3. A Council MUST allow an exemption if it is possible for a reference electric wheelchair to pass safely while a vehicle is parked, or if the pavement "goes nowhere" i.e. does not provide any useful access and is purely cosmetic. They MUST NOT allow it if this is not possible. This would be strict and appealable nationally so as to prevent Councils pushing their own policies.
4. When exemptions are allowed, white line bays are painted on the pavement to indicate the appropriate parking position. Parking further in would be an offence. This is as done in many other countries and in parts of London.
5. The date in (1) would slip if any outstanding applications remained.

Once implemented, there would be no exceptions in my book other than emergency services attending a call. I'm quite unhappy with the long list, specifically with any for delivery drivers who are simply lazy and mostly don't park sensibly even where they could do so.

I do think it's essential to have such a process, as unlike London residential areas are not properly designed to deal with this, and it will certainly cause issues round by me if people have to not park on a piece of wide, cosmetic useless pavement (which goes nowhere), it's a perfect example of where the pavement should be cut back to provide bays, or have them painted on.

I fed this in but the consultation wasn't really structured for it.

 

[geoffk]

The problem with option 3 is that many urban roads are narrow and cannot take cars parked on both sides without either pavement parking or obstructing the passage of emergency vehicles and buses. Many people living in streets of terraced houses seem to own two or even more cars and vans and it's not the local authority's job to provide private off-street parking. If the pavement is wide enough then the white line solution as used in London and parts of Europe would be my answer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with option 3 is that many urban roads are narrow and cannot take cars parked on both sides without either pavement parking or obstructing the passage of emergency vehicles and buses. Many people living in streets of terraced houses seem to own two or even more cars and vans and it's not the local authority's job to provide private off-street parking. If the pavement is wide enough then the white line solution as used in London and parts of Europe would be my answer.

I think I actually would look to provide some. Using Lancaster as an example there are plenty of streets where to get 2 rows of cars you need to obstruct the pavement, but there are also a load of abandoned bits of land and Council owned garages that are barely used. Compulsory purchase those and knock them down, and parking areas could be provided, then allow parking up only one side of the road. It's similar in older parts of Bletchley.

It just takes a bit of thought. Underground parking would be another way, the cost could be recouped by charging for permits. German streets aren't littered with cars because most apartment blocks have underground parking.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The problem with option 3 is that many urban roads are narrow and cannot take cars parked on both sides without either pavement parking or obstructing the passage of emergency vehicles and buses. Many people living in streets of terraced houses seem to own two or even more cars and vans and it's not the local authority's job to provide private off-street parking. If the pavement is wide enough then the white line solution as used in London and parts of Europe would be my answer.

I don't understand the 'solution' to narrow roads being 'it's OK to park on the pavement then'. How about parking somewhere else where you don't cause ANY problems for any road users - drivers or pedestrians? However, I would support the 'white lines' solution where a specified minimum footway would remain, and be enforced, eg double buggy, wheelchair or powered scooter width. My front garden isn't big enough, can I just extend into the footway and/or road with a couple of concrete benches and a picnic table?

There isn't really much point introducing yet more regulations which will be ignored by the majority and enforced once per year simply to meet a target ie no-one can claim that the relevent body has done no enforcement all year.

Wasn't there a consultation running earlier this year on the very same subject? What happened to the outcome of that one? There was a thread about it on here.

 

[Mojo]

Should have been banned decades ago. It is a shame we have to have a consultation on this, especially as the Transport Select Committee did so much work last year on gathering evidence etc about this. Oh well, I suppose it's just how parliament and the political system works, meanwhile the most vulnerable in society suffer. If you park your car on the pavement (except where the local authority has measured the area and deemed it appropriate) you are an ignorant pig.

I would also say, I'm not happy with the suggestion that there be a 20 minute 'grace period' for deliveries. It causes damage and danger to the pavement and pedestrian, and potentially other road users.

I have merged this thread with an earlier one, from earlier this year as it is on the same topic.

 

[miami]

Once implemented, there would be no exceptions in my book other than emergency services attending a call

I'd be OK with being able to get a specific exception for a specific time period from the council - same as you can park on red routes for an appropiate purpose upon an application -- e.g https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/dispensations, or close a public footpath temporarilly.

Whether to grant the dispensation or not would include things like alternate access, length of time closure required for, etc.

I really don't understand the argument that 'there's room to pass'. If the road is narrow, the pavement really should be narrowed to the minimum width that is needed anyway. I suspect most pavement parkers consider the minimum width to be 'far too much' though.

I think there's a spacial awareness problem. My neighbour parks her car about 5cm in from the kerb. Completely needless - either the road is wide enough to park the full width car on, or it's not wide enough to park on - an extra 5cm does not make a difference when the car is 200cm wide anyway.

 

[37424]

I think its fair to say I am not impressed by this proposal, typical of those not really considering the practicalities of this, On one level I can think of plenty of locations near where I live in Yorkshire where it will cause massive problems for residents if they can not park on the pavement I can think of the next street to me where its not particularly wide, yes if they don't park on the pavement a car can probably still get past but the large single decker bus will struggle on some of the bends it already struggles some days. The street of course has a significant number of Terrace houses with little alternative to park elsewhere.

I am also a part time so called lazy delivery driver, I only park on the pavement when I have to and more often than not during the time I take to make the delivery no pedestrian let alone a disabled person will have used the pavement. I have effectively 2mins to deliver a small item so i'm not going to park miles away if I can avoid it and similarly i'm not going to park miles away if I have 25kg Flat Pack Furniture etc to deliver, I could of course block the road which I have occasionally done on quiet narrow roads when there little alternative but clearly that's not to be popular either, I have also been threatened by a motorist coming into the van even though there was actually space to get past in that particular instance demonstrated previously by a women in at least as bigger vehicle.

 

[Ianno87]

I think its fair to say I am not impressed by this proposal, typical of those not really considering the practicalities of this, On one level I can think of plenty of locations near where I live in Yorkshire where it will cause massive problems for residents if they can not park on the pavement I can think of the next street to me where its not particularly wide, yes if they don't park on the pavement a car can probably still get past but the large single decker bus will struggle on some of the bends it already struggles some days. The street of course has a significant number of Terrace houses with little alternative to park elsewhere.

Perhaps the age of all households expecting to own one or two cars each and have them taking up public space whilst spendibg 95% of the time stationary is coming to an end, with a move to shared use models like Zipcar?

 

[37424]

Perhaps the age of all households expecting to own one or two cars each and have them taking up public space whilst spendibg 95% of the time stationary is coming to an end, with a move to shared use models like Zipcar?

You might want to do that I certainly don't, still if nothing else it will no doubt end up being a another way for increasingly anti car councils to penalise the motorist and bring a bit more cash in.

 

[Ianno87]

You might want to do that I certainly don't, still if nothing else it will no doubt end up being a another way for increasingly anti car councils to penalise the motorist and bring a bit more cash in.

Not saying you should. But if a few more people thought about it, pavement parking would be nowhere near as big a deal.

 

[Vespa]

In my road there's terraced houses on one side and none opposite, which is why I choose to move there as I can park opposite if needed however this still involves parking half on the footpath to allow delivery vans and rubbish vans to go through, this street has a resident parking scheme as well, it doesn't guarantee "your spot" however.

The only solution as I can see it is to allow cars to park half on front yard and half on pavement while still leaving room for wheelchairs and prams to go past.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be OK with being able to get a specific exception for a specific time period from the council - same as you can park on red routes for an appropiate purpose upon an application -- e.g https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/dispensations, or close a public footpath temporarilly.

Yes, probably that sort of thing (effectively a road/path closure and should follow the same process as one).

The problem I have is with lazy, pig-ignorant delivery drivers who think they shouldn't have to walk from a sensible, legal parking place. I love it when they deliver to me, as they are clearly often annoyed that you can't access my front door without walking about 50 yards as my house fronts onto a footpath, not a road.

Similarly, with tradesmen. Unload your tools quickly whilst parked on the road (not the pavement), then go and park your van somewhere safe and legal.

Perhaps the age of all households expecting to own one or two cars each and have them taking up public space whilst spendibg 95% of the time stationary is coming to an end, with a move to shared use models like Zipcar?

Those models are nowhere near developed enough other than in the 5-6 largest cities, though. This is often a problem in places that don't even have Deliveroo yet.

I am also a part time so called lazy delivery driver, I only park on the pavement when I have to and more often than not during the time I take to make the delivery no pedestrian let alone a disabled person will have used the pavement. I have effectively 2mins to deliver a small item so i'm not going to park miles away if I can avoid it and similarly i'm not going to park miles away if I have 25kg Flat Pack Furniture etc to deliver, I could of course block the road which I have occasionally done on quiet narrow roads when there little alternative but clearly that's not to be popular either, I have also been threatened by a motorist coming into the van even though there was actually space to get past in that particular instance demonstrated previously by a women in at least as bigger vehicle.

Part of the problem is that you do have insufficient time to properly, safely and legally make the delivery. This would soon change if drivers were being ticketed frequently for pavement parking. Yes, that'd mean we'd have to pay more for our deliveries to allow a longer slot, but so we should.

 

[mmh]

The problem with this subject is it inevitably degenerates into polarised opinions with those of an authoritarian bent unwilling to compromise.

National legislation is a poor idea, it's too heavy handed a tool which ignores that every area is different. If there is a local problem, it should be addressed locally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with this subject is it inevitably degenerates into polarised opinions with those of an authoritarian bent unwilling to compromise.

National legislation is a poor idea, it's too heavy handed a tool which ignores that every area is different. If there is a local problem, it should be addressed locally.

It seems to have worked well in London, though? My proposal just has the situation reversed from the present - it's not OK unless it says it is - and provides a process to have it made OK where wheelchair access would not be impeded.

Indeed in many ways it'd be better if we moved to a national (urban, at least) controlled parking zone, i.e. parking in general is only OK where it says it is. Other countries seem to do well with this approach.

 

[Mojo]

National legislation is a poor idea, it's too heavy handed a tool which ignores that every area is different. If there is a local

It can be addressed locally. If a local authority identifies an issue then they can measure up to check the pavement is wide enough, mark bays and install signs to allow it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can be addressed locally. If a local authority identifies an issue then they can measure up to check the pavement is wide enough, mark bays and install signs to allow it.

The trouble is that they don't, because it's a cost they don't need to spend.

 

[mmh]

It can be addressed locally. If a local authority identifies an issue then they can measure up to check the pavement is wide enough, mark bays and install signs to allow it.

Which has then changed nothing, other than to create work for local authorities and contractors. In places where pavement parking is necessary the councils would be inundated.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I certainly agree that pavement parking is something needs tackling. I've seen car drivers block the entire pavement such that it was impossible to pass their car without going onto the road.

But, my concern is that there's a lot of streets where if everyone suddenly started parking on the road and not putting a bit of their car on the pavement the road becomes to narrow certainly for large vehicles like council bin wagons but even smaller vehicles like some cars.

I had a look at my street a few months ago when the consultation was running. On my street everyone parks with one set of wheels on the pavement. This still leaves enough room for wheelchairs and prams (indeed I've seen them go by the residents cars!) and leaves enough room for large vehicles to squeeze through and cars to drive normally. If everyone parked only on the road I doubt the bin wagon or delivery lorries would get through and it would start to be a squeeze for cars.

I don't know what the answer is particularly but I do worry we're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater if we have a knee jerk reaction (i.e. I'm not sure anyone is served particularly well if we can no longer collect bins for instance!). Perhaps one solution to balance both users needs would be to mark on pavements (where the roads aren't wide enough to allow for everyone to park on the road without access restrictions) the limit of where a car can park. Put a bit of wheel or body over the line and your liable to whatever penalty is chosen. The marking would obviously give priority to the pedestrian users (seeing as it's their space that's being impinged on!) and ensure that they have enough room.

I suppose, in many respect, this is planning decisions and estate building practices over the years coming home to roost. If estates had been built with roads large enough for people to park their cars fully on the road then this wouldn't be such an issue...

Make pavements only 4ft wide and stop people growing hedges 2ft into the pavement. Make most residential street roads one way and ensure the clear carriageway is 11 ft wide.

 

[Mojo]

The trouble is that they don't, because it's a cost they don't need to spend.

Which has then changed nothing, other than to create work for local authorities and contractors. In places where pavement parking is necessary the councils would be inundated.

It has changed _something_ though, because as @Bletchleyite says, local authorities are reluctant to spend the money; so therefore a blanket ban is the best approach so each case can be decided upon locally.

I am sure that the places it is inappropriate outweigh the places that it is appropriate, if you consider the risks and damage acting in this antisocial manner causes.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Sums it up perfectly. This seems to be being inflated into a massive issue which it simply isn’t. In many places it’s the done thing and no one bats an eyelid as it doesn’t cause a problem except to those who go round looking for problems to get self-righteous about.

And repair garages enjoy correcting tracking and repairing front suspensions.
Seems around here most people leave enough space for prams to pass but a significant minority are wholly selfish. Just need some prosecutions for the selfish drivers.

 

[37424]

Yes, probably that sort of thing (effectively a road/path closure and should follow the same process as one).

The problem I have is with lazy, pig-ignorant delivery drivers who think they shouldn't have to walk from a sensible, legal parking place. I love it when they deliver to me, as they are clearly often annoyed that you can't access my front door without walking about 50 yards as my house fronts onto a footpath, not a road.

Similarly, with tradesmen. Unload your tools quickly whilst parked on the road (not the pavement), then go and park your van somewhere safe and legal.



Those models are nowhere near developed enough other than in the 5-6 largest cities, though. This is often a problem in places that don't even have Deliveroo yet.



Part of the problem is that you do have insufficient time to properly, safely and legally make the delivery. This would soon change if drivers were being ticketed frequently for pavement parking. Yes, that'd mean we'd have to pay more for our deliveries to allow a longer slot, but so we should.

That's a very naive way at looking at it, all that would happen is the driver would get the blame for the fines, and if the driver tuck longer the driver would then get the blame for running late on the delivery. If we did get longer slots then as you say that would put up delivery costs, but then we like many companies are in a battle with might of Amazon who can likely absorb the cost more and then we get into a whole other argument.

As already said I don't believe its really a massive problem in my area generally perhaps with a few exceptions which could be looked at rather than using a sledge hammer to crack a nut, even when I do park on the pavement I do try and leave a reasonable amount of room for pedestrians where I can..

 

[Baxenden Bank]

And repair garages enjoy correcting tracking and repairing front suspensions.
Seems around here most people leave enough space for prams to pass but a significant minority are wholly selfish. Just need some prosecutions for the selfish drivers.

The actions of that significant minority are already illegal. Obstruction of the highway. If a pedestrian cannot get by without contorting (ie walking sideways crab-like to get past) the highway is obstructed. It doesn't matter how much width of roadway the selfless considerate parker was trying to leave free for other vehicles, it is the width of pavement remaining for pedestrians which counts. The debate comes around remaining width for prams, wheelchairs and scooters.

Obstruction of the Public Highway, (of which the pavement is legally defined as 'that part of the highway set aside for pedestrians') and anyone so doing may be prosecuted under Section 137 Highways Act 1980, Section 42 Road Traffic Act 1988 or Section 22 Road Traffic Act 1988 as appropriate to the nature of the offence, (note that a conviction under the latter reference also attracts three penalty points on the driver's licence

The only time I have formally complained about pavement parking was when I watched a woman pushing a pram up the middle of the road because both sides of the road, for some distance, were fully parked (and were parked like that every evening, overnight and all weekend). After a written complaint, clearly pointing out the dangerous situation that woman and baby were forced into, the police dealt with the matter satisfactorily. Just one deliberately awkward so and so from then on.

But getting anyone to do anything is, of course, the key thing. Without the woman and pram, I could have complained forever about the theoretical risk with no result. Hence I would prefer a blanket ban on pavement parking as that would make things quite clear, and a police officer always has discretion on how / whether to apply the law.

 

[miami]

The localism angle would be handled by councils (perhaps at a town/parish level) being able to define streets as "Drivers only".

In all cases of course it seems that drivers have a statortory right to about 10 square metres of land. I'm thinking of putting a small shed on my 10 square metres.