Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

[cactustwirly]

Which is fine.

But imagine how much easier residential street parking would be if it were only those with the greatest need that actually owned cars, not all and sundry....?

Or give people the choice? Make public transport actually convenient and more people will use it.

 

[miami]

If drivers didn't pay tax, fuel, insurance, maintenance, finance etc seperately and instead theoretically fed £10 into their car every time they wanted to drive it, public transport would suddenly seem very attractive...

Not really. Total cost of a typical second hand car, including capital outlay, insurance, tax, petrol, maintenence etc, is under 25p a mile. Public transport is usually far more expensive even if there were an equivalent.

Indeed and seems to ignore the fact that the majority of people are car drivers and want to use their car

I have somehow managed to drive my car for the last 20+ years without parking it on the pavement.

It's very frustrating for me as a driver and a cyclist to share the road, ideally cyclist should have a dedicated cycling path, but obviously this isn't possible for all roads.

I find it frustrating to share the road with tractors, but I appreciate that is a problem with me, not with the tractor, the road, or how our shared resources are made available for all.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

link to 'parking rules'

Roadside Parking Rules UK

The police and local authorities enforce the UK Highway Code parking regulations. You must park your vehicle in the correct manner to avoid getting a ticket and a fine.

PARKING A VEHICLE AT THE ROADSIDE: We refer to the current UK Highway Code roadside parking law.

It stipulates that unless it is 'absolutely' necessary, you should try to avoid making a stop on the highway as a chosen place to park your vehicle.

Instead, motorists should use 'specially' marked bays identified by white lines. Thus, you should use off-street parking areas wherever possible.

Follow these guidelines if you need to stop a car on the roadside during the day time. But, there are further restrictions for parking a vehicle at night time.

I guess, in most cases, it is not 'absolutely' necessary. Although My Loophole Lawyer will undoubdedly argue the definition of 'absolutely' and 'necessary' until the cows come home. Hopefully whilst doing so they kick the side of the car and dump some liquid and semi-liquid material upon it.

 

[37424]

Which is fine.

But imagine how much easier residential street parking would be if it were only those with the greatest need that actually owned cars, not all and sundry....?

And how would you define greatest need?, good luck to the politician who come with that idea. as it is there is more creeping anti car stuff from many councils and the Government I think there may well be a backlash before long.

 

[Ianno87]

Or give people the choice? Make public transport actually convenient and more people will use it.

Some folk would have a non-stop train every 5 minutes from their front door to their office lobby and still insist on driving

And how would you define greatest need?,

Car owners (of which I am one) to actually be intelligent and decide for themselves, cost-incentivised if needs be.

 

[py_megapixel]

Indeed and seems to ignore the fact that the majority of people are car drivers and want to use their car

We seem to have moved to a completely different argument.

Nobody is suggesting that drivers shouldn't be allowed to use their car. We are suggesting that they shouldn't be allowed to cause an obstruction to pedestrians.

Not really. Total cost of a typical second hand car, including capital outlay, insurance, tax, petrol, maintenence etc, is under 25p a mile. Public transport is usually far more expensive even if there were an equivalent.

This is a problem which needs to be addressed, and not by just pouring money into private companies. A structured, centrally planned, and well subsidised network with simple integrated fares is needed.

as it is there is more creeping anti car stuff from many councils and the Government I think there may well be a backlash before long.

Cars simply aren't an efficient mode of transport, for many reasons, not just environmental. We are right to be moving away from them.
Giving every individual what they want is not a way to create a sustainable society.

 

[mmh]

You have a common law right to pass and re-pass along a public road. If you're parked up, you're neither passing nor re-passing. It's not strictly banned, but it's not strictly lawful either.

Clearly it's not something to enforce either way, but still.

As for pavement parking, it's not lawful in London and everyone survives.

It's not lawful in London, yet still happens by local acceptance of it. Again, I'd ask the advocates of legislation to outright ban it across the country what they think the result would be.

Cars simply aren't an efficient mode of transport, for many reasons, not just environmental. We are right to be moving away from them.
Giving every individual what they want is not a way to create a sustainable society.

And there in a nutshell is why a nationwide ban would be ridiculous. The car is the efficient mode of transport for, geographically, most of the UK.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's not lawful in London, yet still happens by local acceptance of it. Again, I'd ask the advocates of legislation to outright ban it across the country what they think the result would be.



And there in a nutshell is why a nationwide ban would be ridiculous. The car is the efficient mode of transport for, geographically, most of the UK.

Presumaby the outcome would be the same as in London. Life will continue, people will change their ways where necessary. There will be elements of give and take. Where there is space, pavement parking will be subject to local acceptance. Where there is insufficient space, the law will be clarified to permit action to be taken more easily. Obstruction is down to an individuals perception. On or off the footway is pretty unequivocal.

We are not talking about the mode of transport, we are discussing the mode of 'non-transport' before and after ie parking.

 

[py_megapixel]

And there in a nutshell is why a nationwide ban would be ridiculous. The car is the efficient mode of transport for, geographically, most of the UK.

But why does that give people permission to park on the pavement in city centres and suburbs, causing an obstruction, where cars are not an efficient mode of transport at all?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure?

The whole body of UK law is online, can you provide the specific law that makes it illegal?

Someone else mentioned you have the right to pass and repass, which you do, but that doesn't in and of itself mean other usage, such as sitting eating your sandwiches, is illegal.

If it was, there would already be enforcement.

link to 'parking rules'

I guess, in most cases, it is not 'absolutely' necessary. Although My Loophole Lawyer will undoubdedly argue the definition of 'absolutely' and 'necessary' until the cows come home. Hopefully whilst doing so they kick the side of the car and dump some liquid and semi-liquid material upon it.

That's an awful (and unofficial) website. The official body of UK legislation is at legislation.gov.uk.

The Highway Code is not wholly law. It clearly states when it is and when it isn't.

Can you perhaps quote the relevant section of the Highway Code which says you MUST NOT park on the road, and the relevant law to which that is referenced (as the text gives references in such cases)?

If not, I think you'll find you were not correct.

 

[37424]

Cars simply aren't an efficient mode of transport, for many reasons, not just environmental. We are right to be moving away from them.
Giving every individual what they want is not a way to create a sustainable society.

May not be efficient in cities but in rural areas it likely to be the most appropriate means of Transport, and I see the future as less commuting with more working from home, and more environmentally friendly vehicles.

Coming back to the point on an evening I deliver to many Terrace Streets where it can be difficult to get around those streets with a long wheelbase sprinter as it is and that's with some of them parking on the pavement, without that it would likely be impossible, or you end up having to find other homes for all these parked on the pavement cars, some might find another street or main road and we just clog up that road instead, and out of main city centres who is going to police this anyway apart from maybe some busy body reporting it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coming back to the point on an evening I deliver to many Terrace Streets where it can be difficult to get around those streets with a long wheelbase sprinter as it is

Then a long-wheelbase Sprinter isn't the correct delivery vehicle to use to those locations.

I know you're just doing your job, but I'm saying the system is flawed and is not a reason not to legislate on this matter. Couriers will just have to catch up and use appropriate vehicles for narrow roads.

 

[py_megapixel]

The whole body of UK law is online, can you provide the specific law that makes it illegal?

Someone else mentioned you have the right to pass and repass, which you do, but that doesn't in and of itself mean other usage, such as sitting eating your sandwiches, is illegal.

If it was, there would already be enforcement.



That's an awful (and unofficial) website. The official body of UK legislation is at legislation.gov.uk.

The Highway Code is not wholly law. It clearly states when it is and when it isn't.

Can you perhaps quote the relevant section of the Highway Code which says you MUST NOT park on the road, and the relevant law to which that is referenced (as the text gives references in such cases)?

If not, I think you'll find you were not correct.

Rule 240 of the Highway Code contains a list of locations where parking is prohibited:

You MUST NOT stop or park on:

• the carriageway or the hard shoulder of a motorway except in an emergency (see Rule 270)
• a pedestrian crossing, including the area marked by the zig-zag lines (see Rule 191)
• a clearway (see ‘Traffic signs’)
• taxi bays as indicated by upright signs and markings
• an Urban Clearway within its hours of operation, except to pick up or set down passengers (see ‘Traffic signs’)
• a road marked with double white lines, even when a broken white line is on your side of the road, except to pick up or set down passengers, or to load or unload goods
• a tram or cycle lane during its period of operation
• a cycle track
• red lines, in the case of specially designated ‘red routes’, unless otherwise indicated by signs. Any vehicle may enter a bus lane to stop, load or unload where this is not prohibited (see Rule 141).

You will notice that the roadside is not included. In additon, the previous rule provides information about how to safely stop at the roadside:

If you have to stop on the roadside:

• do not park facing against the traffic flow
• stop as close as you can to the side
• do not stop too close to a vehicle displaying a Blue Badge: remember, the occupant may need more room to get in or out
• you MUST switch off the engine, headlights and fog lights
• you MUST apply the handbrake before leaving the vehicle
• you MUST ensure you do not hit anyone when you open your door. Check for cyclists or other traffic
• it is safer for your passengers (especially children) to get out of the vehicle on the side next to the kerb
• put all valuables out of sight and make sure your vehicle is secure
• lock your vehicle.

 

[37424]

Then a long-wheelbase Sprinter isn't the correct delivery vehicle to use to those locations.

I know you're just doing your job, but I'm saying the system is flawed and is not a reason not to legislate on this matter. Couriers will just have to catch up and use appropriate vehicles for narrow roads.

The smaller vehicles don't have the capacity so that's more trips back to the depot increasing costs etc, but of course the more pertinent point potentially other vehicles which may be just as big or larger which may need to get up those streets such as emergency vehicles etc.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The whole body of UK law is online, can you provide the specific law that makes it illegal?

Someone else mentioned you have the right to pass and repass, which you do, but that doesn't in and of itself mean other usage, such as sitting eating your sandwiches, is illegal.

If it was, there would already be enforcement.

I specifically stated illegal / unlawful. I was being lazy and using colloqial language - we both know there is a difference. I doubt there is a specific law making it illegal, and we have a common law default that if something is not specifically legislated against, then it is legal. Conversely there is a substantial body of highway legislation, including the highway code, in shaping drivers bahaviour. A snapshot of which I provided a link to whilst our posts crossed in typing.

Looking at the detail of parking rules - facing the right way, close to the kerb, not close to a junction, not on a dropped kerb, lights on if on an over 30mph road etc, how many parked cars actually meet all of those conditions?

Besides, I contend that a parked vehicle (ie not stopped for traffic reasons) is always an obstruction to the free flow of traffic - an offence. But in many cases that obstruction is sufficiently minor that absolutely nothing should be done about it. There is no point 'prosecuting' simply for pedantic / technical reasons. It would be a colossal waste of time and resources.

Highways Act 1980, Section 137

: makes it an offence for any person, without lawful authority or excuse, to wilfully obstruct the free passage along a highway, including all rights of way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The smaller vehicles don't have the capacity so that's more trips back to the depot increasing costs etc, but of course the more pertinent point potentially other vehicles which may be just as big or larger which may need to get up those streets such as emergency vehicles etc.

Though the situation with those is different, because it is valid to leave an emergency vehicle blocking the road if needing to do so to attend an emergency call, which isn't acceptable to deliver a parcel.

 

[py_megapixel]

The smaller vehicles don't have the capacity so that's more trips back to the depot increasing costs etc, but of course the pertinent point potentially other vehicles which may be just as big or larger which may need to get up those streets such as emergency vehicles etc.

If the streets are that narrow then pavement parking is going to prevent, say, a fire engine getting up there, as much as parking on the road is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the detail of parking rules - facing the right way, close to the kerb, not close to a junction, not on a dropped kerb, lights on if on an over 30mph road etc, how many parked cars actually meet all of those conditions?

In towns, the vast majority of them. I would agree regarding parking lights, though. Within 10m of a junction is usually accepted as "close" to it, and in areas where you get that sort of parking that normally has yellow lines.

Besides, I contend that a parked vehicle (ie not stopped for traffic reasons) is always an obstruction to the free flow of traffic - an offence.

I suspect if you researched it you would find legal precedent saying otherwise. Having said that, that is used to prosecute dangerous parking on country lanes in popular outdoor recreation areas, though the devil is probably in the detail. Again, if this law was adequate it'd already be being used and new legislation would not be under consideration.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The official body of UK legislation is at legislation.gov.uk.

Point of order: only statute is there. Lots of our laws are not statutory.

As I say, it's not strictly lawful but it's not strictly unlawful either. There is no law saying you can park on a public road either.

It's not lawful in London, yet still happens by local acceptance of it.

It is not lawful in London and is enforced by FPNs. Where it is safe authorities will permit it in designated spaces, where the pavement has been strengthened and is wide enough.

And that's how any national legislation should work: you can't do it unless it is expressly permitted.

 

[py_megapixel]

Though the situation with those is different, because it is valid to leave an emergency vehicle blocking the road if needing to do so to attend an emergency call, which isn't acceptable to deliver a parcel.

It might not be legally acceptable but plenty of DPD and Yodel drivers around where I live leave their vans blocking the road or on double yellows to deliver a parcel... I think they just work on the assumption that the time lost through parking legitimately and walking is a greater value than the cost of the fine, so if they're caught they might as well just pay the fine.

The other vehicles that commonly block the road are BT vans...

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I say, it's not strictly lawful but it's not strictly unlawful either. There is no law saying you can park on a public road either.

That's not how the law works - if something is not banned or regulated then it is allowed.

Again, if the existing legislation was adequate, we wouldn't be talking about needing new legislation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Coming back to the point on an evening I deliver to many Terrace Streets where it can be difficult to get around those streets with a long wheelbase sprinter as it is

I know you're only doing a job and all, but I highly doubt that. If a bin truck or a fire engine can get down the road then so can a long-wheelbase Sprinter. Here some of our buses are long-wheelbase Sprinters and they get down tighter roads than what you see in the tight Yorkshire valleys.

And if you can't park safely without going on a kerb then you shouldn't be parking there. Whether that makes your round sustainable is between you and your employer.

That's not how the law works - if something is not banned or regulated then it is allowed.

Common law rights are to pass and re-pass, nothing more. Parking is not passing.

 

[py_megapixel]

Besides, I contend that a parked vehicle (ie not stopped for traffic reasons) is always an obstruction to the free flow of traffic - an offence. But in many cases that obstruction is sufficiently minor that absolutely nothing should be done about it. There is no point 'prosecuting' simply for pedantic / technical reasons. It would be a colossal waste of time and resources.

No it isn't. Many major roads are so wide that a parked vehicle causes no obstruction at all - at least, if the driver is looking where they are going and can steer around it.

For example, here is a section of the A48 where a car parked at the side of the road would not cause the traffic to flow any less freely, because there is tons of width in the road and good sightlines.

 

[Meerkat]

If necessary and possible the council can create parking spaces that are on the pavement. They could cover the costs with permits.
If there aren’t enough spaces left then you use permits and restrict them to one per household when they are changed to new people.
its illegal to drive on the pavement but bizarrely they won’t prosecute you parking on it - how else would the car have got there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Common law rights are to pass and re-pass, nothing more. Parking is not passing.

That you have an absolute right to do that doesn't mean other activities are unlawful. Again, if they were, existing law could be used and no new laws would need considering.

 

[py_megapixel]

If necessary and possible the council can create parking spaces that are on the pavement. They could cover the costs with permits.

This doesn't solve the problem of parked cars on the pavement obstructing pedestrians...

 

[Bletchleyite]

This doesn't solve the problem of parked cars on the pavement obstructing pedestrians...

It does on pavements that are wide enough for a wheelchair user to pass with a car there.

 

[bluenoxid]

its illegal to drive on the pavement but bizarrely they won’t prosecute you parking on it - how else would the car have got there?

Drives in to thread with break down truck with car on the back. Pops out of cab, fiddles with controls of the crane, cranes car on to pavement, unhooks it, restores crane to safe position, takes bow and drives off

 

[py_megapixel]

It does on pavements that are wide enough for a wheelchair user to pass with a car there.

But the majority are not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the majority are not.

Indeed not. But if there is a ban, Councils need to be mandated to consider applications for such bays to be marked on a purely objective, well-defined basis (and not because they don't feel like).

Drives in to thread with break down truck with car on the back. Pops out of cab, fiddles with controls of the crane, cranes car on to pavement, unhooks it, restores crane to safe position, takes bow and drives off

Just push it on. That isn't illegal.

(That's why it fails - you can't say it was driven there "beyond reasonable doubt" - if it was "on the balance of probabilities" you could, but that's not how criminal law works)