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Planned 387 and 377 cascades to Southern and Southeastern in 2025
- Thread starter JammyJames08
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Sun Chariot
Established Member
I can't answer how many 387/1s are now in operation with Southern - but the weekdays Brighton-Southampton (1Nxx) services are typically showing up with white 387/1.
The class 387s will have specific diagrams. I don't know what they are though.
SolomonSouth
Member
Yes, they will have specific diagrams, as @Bikeman78 has said. This is because 387 and 377 cannot work together in passenger service.
RichJF
Member
I regularly catch the 0734 from East Croydon - Gatwick (part of the longer Victoria - Eastbourne service). It's nearly always a red, red/white 387 combo now. The Ore/Eastbourne services seem to be reliable allocations for 387s.
LA50041
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From the may timetable change all M-F Victoria-Eastbourne/Ore services, (except the last up) are booked 387
Does that mean fewer 387s on the west side of Brighton?
Where can you see that and which units are being booked?
LA50041
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No, the Southampton Brighton is still booked mostly 387 but a few 377’s still
Carriage Working Notices
aftv
Member
Any idea about Saturdays?
Where is that? Where can we find that?
It's an internal document used by TOCs. Some TOCs have made them available to the public following a freedom of information request so you could try that approach.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
This is really interesting thank you! So Victoria - Eastbourne/Ore and Brighton - Southampton will be majority 387, are there any other routes expecting conversions from 377 to 387?
LA50041
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Saturdays and Sundays are more of a mixture, about 50/50 whether its a 377 or 387.
Brighton - Southampton are about 50/50 all days of the week unless there is engineering works when things change.
I don't believe any more routes are going over imminently as there are not enough units to do much more at the moment.
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Not much help for TOCs that aren't subject to FOI!
With the 387 units coming, does that mean they will probably change the formation on many routes especially in southern metro
For example just an idea
London Victoria and Dorking/Epsom route run with a mixture of 8 or 10 carriages
London Bridge to East Croydon and Beckenham jct via Tulse Hill will increase from 6 carriages to 8 carriages during peak
Watford junction to east Croydon increase from 5 carriages to 8 carriages (I thought they would be using 387 units) which have special overhead cable.
London Bridge to Epsom via Norwood junction would run with 8 cars and 10 cars (mixture of 3+3+4 and 5+5 formations) during peak
Some London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham corner could run with 12 carriages during peak to Purley and then front 8 cars to run to caterham and rear 4 to Tattenham corner.
Some London Victoria to Epsom Downs could run with 10 carriages (5+5 formation)
Do you reckon these changes could happen when they bring all of the 387 units.
For example just an idea
London Victoria and Dorking/Epsom route run with a mixture of 8 or 10 carriages
London Bridge to East Croydon and Beckenham jct via Tulse Hill will increase from 6 carriages to 8 carriages during peak
Watford junction to east Croydon increase from 5 carriages to 8 carriages (I thought they would be using 387 units) which have special overhead cable.
London Bridge to Epsom via Norwood junction would run with 8 cars and 10 cars (mixture of 3+3+4 and 5+5 formations) during peak
Some London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham corner could run with 12 carriages during peak to Purley and then front 8 cars to run to caterham and rear 4 to Tattenham corner.
Some London Victoria to Epsom Downs could run with 10 carriages (5+5 formation)
Do you reckon these changes could happen when they bring all of the 387 units.
A few of these already run the way you describe already.
I don't think that one would work given the platform lengths at Purley, with both platform 5 and 6 shorter than 240m, and the undesirable idea of splitting and joining trains in platform 4. It is also, in my view, completely unnecessary.
LA50041
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For a start, “all” the 387 are not coming to Southern. Off the top of my head the total increase in units is 5 as around 17 377’s are due to transfer to Southeastern as a result of the cascade.
As JonathanH says, 12 cars splitting at Purley is not practical, and even if it was the way the units cycle you would risk a 5 car arrival at Purley to attach to an 8 from Caterham.
Whilst 8 cars would be desirable on the Beckenham in the peak, the West Coastway is far more in need of additional stock than the metro.
8 cars to Watford are not going to happen without significant further funding/cascades so I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one since the government are skint.
SolomonSouth
Member
I think 13 377s are going to Southeastern - but we do not know how many 387s are going to Southern yet.
Robski
Member
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Around 24 387's are going south (this number will fluctuate for maintenance reasons).
I’m guessing it will be the 377/1s that mostly have the 2+3 seating (377120-377139) or will it be some 377/4 units
Well if the 387 units go on the Tulse Hill route, then the west coastway could increase to 6 carriages
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Already identified as 377121-377133 upthread.
Sutton in Ant
Member
I had an email from Southern as I asked them how many 387s will be coming from GN. They told me that SN will be getting 25 387s. Not all 387s will be coming down from GN. The numbers will be 387s 14-29. 387 3s, which used to be C2C and SN, will be getting the former GWR 172 - 174. I know they came down and went back to GN I think that they are getting some work done on it and will be coming back to SN when the work is done. What I believe is that the stock moves from GN to Southern and Southern to Southeastern railway should be completed by December 2025.
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So would the December timetable 2025 could see the following changes when SN has the 387 units.
4tph between London Victoria and Epsom being restored
2tph London Bridge to Sutton via Forest Hill
Calling at New Cross gate, Brockley, Honor Oak park, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge west, Anerley, Norwood junction, west Croydon and Sutton.
I always wondered whether southern should introduce a new route between London Victoria to Brighton via Horsham and Littlehampton when they get the units which would obviously be a quicker service for people travelling between London Victoria and Littlehampton, it would have more direct services between Littlehampton and Brighton and also provide a direct link between Horsham and Worthing area connecting them together.
4tph between London Victoria and Epsom being restored
2tph London Bridge to Sutton via Forest Hill
Calling at New Cross gate, Brockley, Honor Oak park, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge west, Anerley, Norwood junction, west Croydon and Sutton.
I always wondered whether southern should introduce a new route between London Victoria to Brighton via Horsham and Littlehampton when they get the units which would obviously be a quicker service for people travelling between London Victoria and Littlehampton, it would have more direct services between Littlehampton and Brighton and also provide a direct link between Horsham and Worthing area connecting them together.
Govia Thameslink Railway brings in extra trains in readiness for improved December timetable
An additional fleet of 30 modern trains will help Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) give its Great Northern and Thameslink passengers faster journeys from key...www.mynewsdesk.com
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SolomonSouth
Member
SN get a net gain of 12 units then, as SE are getting 13 377s. All this hinges on the 379s being in service, which, to be fair, considering how long the 379s spent sat there idle, their reliability has not been bad, so it shouldn't be too long.
I may have said earlier in the thread, but if not, I'll say it now - SE lack the stabling/depot space to get a net gain in units, so 52 coaches worth of Networker (or possibly even a higher number) will have to go to make way for them.
To my knowledge, there are already 30 coaches that have been out of service for a while - 465005 and 465178 have been stuck in the Victoria wall siding for nearly half a year now, 465160, 465184 and 465188 - with 466008 - have been stuck in Slade Green since the end of January/start of February this year.
465154 and 465165 have not been seen in service for many months, with SE's WhatsApp confirming they have not seen service recently. If anyone knows where either 465154 or 465165 are, please tell me. They've not been seen for ages.
If all those go, that's 30 more coaches gone. And they seem like obvious units to get rid of - they have not been in routine service and, considering the length of time they have been idle, they would need lengthy, costly repairs to get back into service now. Probably cheaper to send them away.
It's interesting to me that all units currently idling, except for the 466, are BREL 465s - before, SE seemed to want to get rid of the /9s, but now, they seem to want to use them - all /9s have been out in service often over the past few months while those BRELS rot away in sidings.