Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Ribbleman]

Saw one of these up around Carnforth yesterday. Are they being tested up that way just because there are free paths, or is it for planned service use?

769434 by Mark, on

They've been on testing and driver training runs for some weeks now but for service use they will be used on Southport-Alderley Edge and Southport-Stalybridge from 17th May. The advantage of running them in using diesel power under the wires is that if the engines malfunction the pantograph can be raised to allow the unit to return to Allerton.

 

[mjn]

They've been on testing and driver training runs for some weeks now but for service use they will be used on Southport-Alderley Edge and Southport-Stalybridge from 17th May. The advantage of running them in using diesel power under the wires is that if the engines malfunction the pantograph can be raised to allow the unit to return to Allerton.

Makes sense, thanks for that!

 

[py_megapixel]

I see diagrams for the week commencing 17th May have already been posted.
Am I right in saying that the 769s - assuming they don't fail - will be covering every ALD-SOP service in that week, or will there still be Sprinters?

I wouldn't have thought regular passengers are going to notice much if any difference to be honest. Apart from the slightly different style at the front and the fact that they make different noises - not the kind of thing people tend to pay attention to I wouldn't have thought - they feel identical inside to the 150s. I can't really imagine there being as much of a fanfare about them as there was for the 195s or 331s either.

 

[peters]

I see diagrams for the week commencing 17th May have already been posted.
Am I right in saying that the 769s - assuming they don't fail - will be covering every ALD-SOP service in that week, or will there still be Sprinters?

In another thread a link to a downloadable zip folder with Northern's May 2021 timetable has been posted: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-150-3.215627/

The answer to your question will be in there somewhere. At first glance it looks like both the 319s and 769s will remain out-of-use on Sundays.

 

[507021]

Thanks

Here's the updated list including the updates from @FGW_DID and @adc82140

Number	Ex No.	Livery	TOC	Depot/Location	Current State
769002	319002	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769003	319003	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769006	319006	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769007	319007	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769008	319008	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769421	319421	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Cardiff Canton	Converted - awaiting testing
769424	319424	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769426	319426	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Loughborough Works	Undergoing conversion
769431	319431	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Converted - awaiting testing
769434	319434	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769442	319442	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769445	319445	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Cardiff Canton	Undergoing testing
769448	319448	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769450	319450	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769452	319452	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769456	319456	Northern	Northern	North West	Undergoing testing
769458	319458	Northern	Northern	Crewe Arriva Traincare	Undergoing testing
769509	319009	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Eastleigh Works	Conversion work yet to start
769510	319010	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Eastleigh Works	Conversion work yet to start
769922	319422	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769923	319423	GWR	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769925	319425	GWR	GWR		Conversion work yet to start
769927	319427	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769928	319428	GWR	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769930	319430	GWR	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing acceptance exam
769932	319432	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769935	319435	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769936	319436	GWR	GWR	Long Marston	Converted - awaiting testing
769937	319437	GWR	GWR	Wolverton Works	Converted - awaiting testing
769938	319438	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769939	319439	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769940	319440	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769943	319443	GWR	GWR	Reading Traincare	Converted - awaiting testing
769944	319444	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Derby RTC	Converted - now stored
769946	319446	GWR	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing acceptance exam
769947	319447	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769949	319449	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769959	319459	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start

Bold items are the ones I have changed since the last update

769959 has been converted and is now in GWR livery. Unless it's since moved, it's in storage at Burton.

EDIT: 009 to be 769501, 010 to be 769502. Those staying as 319s will be /6, 373 to be 601.

 

[Jamesrob637]

In another thread a link to a downloadable zip folder with Northern's May 2021 timetable has been posted: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-150-3.215627/

The answer to your question will be in there somewhere. At first glance it looks like both the 319s and 769s will remain out-of-use on Sundays.

Yeah cause Northern run like 2 trains a day on each line Sundays

 

[The_Train]

769959 has been converted and is now in GWR livery. Unless it's since moved, it's in storage at Burton.

EDIT: 009 to be 769501, 010 to be 769502. Those staying as 319s will be /6, 373 to be 601.

Thanks for that, I will get the list updated and posted out later.
I'm a little bit confused about what you mean with regard to the remaining 319s though? Are you saying that they will be renumbered 319/6?
And just to clarify, 319373 is intended to become 769601? As part of my recent findings, I had ROG/Orion as having 501-510 earmarked for the 769 fleet! As that now changed or are they extending the 769 fleet to 11 from the planned 10?

Thanks

 

[Wyrleybart]

Thanks for that, I will get the list updated and posted out later.
I'm a little bit confused about what you mean with regard to the remaining 319s though? Are you saying that they will be renumbered 319/6?
And just to clarify, 319373 is intended to become 769601? As part of my recent findings, I had ROG/Orion as having 501-510 earmarked for the 769 fleet! As that now changed or are they extending the 769 fleet to 11 from the planned 10?

Thanks

AIUI ROG / Orion are having Bimode class 769s and "trailer" class 319s to operate their new services. I am assuming their "trailer" class 319s which are being numbered 319/6 are to be fitted with engine stop and start controls to operate with their 769s which they will multi with. The plans by Orion which have been publicised are Liverpool St - London Gateway, and Birch Coppice - Scotland. They have already suggested they will use a 769+319 combo on the Liverpool St job, which means the pair of units run under 25kV to the junction for Gateway where they drop their pans and the 769 powers the train on diesel to the terminal.

Similarly, but in reverse, Birch Coppice is on the Kingsbury branch and is unwiredi, the nearest 25kV railheads are Nuneaton and Walsall, so you could assume that a 769 will be multi d with a 319/6 to operate away from the 25kV at either Nuneaton or Walsall and haul or push the 319 to Birch Coppice.

A similar move would presumably be available at DBC Walsall's loading platform in Tasker St yard where the 769 could "tractor" the 319/6 out of the yard and under the wires at Walsall station, assume the Scottish destination is wired.

 

[507021]

Thanks for that, I will get the list updated and posted out later.
I'm a little bit confused about what you mean with regard to the remaining 319s though? Are you saying that they will be renumbered 319/6?
And just to clarify, 319373 is intended to become 769601? As part of my recent findings, I had ROG/Orion as having 501-510 earmarked for the 769 fleet! As that now changed or are they extending the 769 fleet to 11 from the planned 10?

Thanks

No problem.

Just to clear things up with the Orion fleet, there'll be nine 319s (319601-609) and ten 769s (769501-510) overall, with the latter being the "tractor" units as Wyrleybart has said. I think the plan is to operate them in eight and twelve car formations, although I'm happy to be corrected on that.

 

[The_Train]

AIUI ROG / Orion are having Bimode class 769s and "trailer" class 319s to operate their new services. I am assuming their "trailer" class 319s which are being numbered 319/6 are to be fitted with engine stop and start controls to operate with their 769s which they will multi with. The plans by Orion which have been publicised are Liverpool St - London Gateway, and Birch Coppice - Scotland. They have already sugegsted they will use a 769+319 combo on the Liverpool St job, which means the pair of units run under 25kV to the junction for Gateway where they drop their pans and the 769 powers the train on diesel to the terminal.

Similarly, but in reverse, Birch Coppice is on the Kingsbury branch and is unwiredi, the nearest 25kV railheads are Nuneaton and Walsall, so you could assume that a 769 will be multi d with a 319/6 to operate away from the 25kV at either Nuneaton or Walsall and haul or push the 319 to Birch Coppice.

A similar move would presumably be available at DBC Walsall's loading platform in Tasker St yard where the 769 could "tractor" the 319/6 out of the yard and under the wires at Walsall station, assume the Scottish destination is wired.

I believe that all of your assumptions, presumptions and beliefs are correct with everything you have said
So we are all in agreement that the 319s will become 319/6's then? I will refrain from any further questions on those as that discussion is probably best had in a 319 thread

Latest list as far as the info I have picked up on here and elsewhere:

Number	Ex No.	Livery	TOC	Depot/Location	Current State
769002	319002	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769003	319003	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769006	319006	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769007	319007	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769008	319008	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769421	319421	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Cardiff Canton	Converted - awaiting testing
769424	319424	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769426	319426	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Loughborough Works	Undergoing conversion
769431	319431	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Converted - awaiting testing
769434	319434	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769442	319442	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769445	319445	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Cardiff Canton	Undergoing testing
769448	319448	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769450	319450	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769452	319452	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769456	319456	Northern	Northern	North West	Undergoing testing
769458	319458	Northern	Northern	Crewe Arriva Traincare	Undergoing testing
769501	319009	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Eastleigh Works	Conversion to 769 complete - internal work ongoing
769502	319010	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Loughborough Works	Undergoing conversion
769503			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769504			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769505			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769506			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769507			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769508			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769509			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769510			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769922	319422	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769923	319423	GWR Green	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769925	319425	GWR Green	GWR		Conversion work yet to start
769927	319427	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769928	319428	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769930	319430	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing acceptance exam
769932	319432	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769935	319435	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769936	319436	GWR Green	GWR	Long Marston	Converted - awaiting testing
769937	319437	GWR Green	GWR	Wolverton Works	Converted - awaiting testing
769938	319438	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769939	319439	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769940	319440	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769943	319443	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Converted - awaiting testing
769944	319444	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Derby RTC	Converted - now stored
769946	319446	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing testing
769947	319447	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769949	319449	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769959	319459	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing

As always, the bold items are the ones I have updated since the last time I posted a list

 

[507021]

I believe that all of your assumptions, presumptions and beliefs are correct with everything you have said
So we are all in agreement that the 319s will become 319/6's then? I will refrain from any further questions on those as that discussion is probably best had in a 319 thread

Latest list as far as the info I have picked up on here and elsewhere:

Number	Ex No.	Livery	TOC	Depot/Location	Current State
769002	319002	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769003	319003	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769006	319006	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769007	319007	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769008	319008	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769421	319421	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Cardiff Canton	Converted - awaiting testing
769424	319424	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769426	319426	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Loughborough Works	Undergoing conversion
769431	319431	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Converted - awaiting testing
769434	319434	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769442	319442	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769445	319445	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Cardiff Canton	Undergoing testing
769448	319448	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769450	319450	Northern	Northern	Allerton	Undergoing testing
769452	319452	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769456	319456	Northern	Northern	North West	Undergoing testing
769458	319458	Northern	Northern	Crewe Arriva Traincare	Undergoing testing
769501	319009	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Eastleigh Works	Conversion to 769 complete - internal work ongoing
769502	319010	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Loughborough Works	Undergoing conversion
769503			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769504			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769505			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769506			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769507			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769508			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769509			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769510			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769922	319422	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769923	319423	GWR Green	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769925	319425	GWR Green	GWR		Conversion work yet to start
769927	319427	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769928	319428	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769930	319430	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing acceptance exam
769932	319432	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769935	319435	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769936	319436	GWR Green	GWR	Long Marston	Converted - awaiting testing
769937	319437	GWR Green	GWR	Wolverton Works	Converted - awaiting testing
769938	319438	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769939	319439	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769940	319440	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769943	319443	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Converted - awaiting testing
769944	319444	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Derby RTC	Converted - now stored
769946	319446	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing testing
769947	319447	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769949	319449	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769959	319459	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing

As always, the bold items are the ones I have updated since the last time I posted a list

Just a quick one, 502 has been converted, not sure about 501 though.

 

[Defiance149]

Just a quick one, 502 has been converted, not sure about 501 though.

319009 has not been to Brush yet, 319010 has been done and is at Eastleigh for internal conversion.

 

[scrapy]

I see diagrams for the week commencing 17th May have already been posted.
Am I right in saying that the 769s - assuming they don't fail - will be covering every ALD-SOP service in that week, or will there still be Sprinters?

I wouldn't have thought regular passengers are going to notice much if any difference to be honest. Apart from the slightly different style at the front and the fact that they make different noises - not the kind of thing people tend to pay attention to I wouldn't have thought - they feel identical inside to the 150s. I can't really imagine there being as much of a fanfare about them as there was for the 195s or 331s either.

I know that the plan a few weeks ago was to start of with a couple of diagrams as 769s as training would not be fully completed. The 6 LTP diagrams have been produced for the full timetable period and can still be altered with STP diagrams or unit swaps on the day so I think it's unlikely that all diagrams will be 769s from the start. There was talk of some Oxford Rd trips being covered by 769s from 3rd May with a unit being left at Southport to be used on an ad-hoc basis depending on trained crew availability. All these plans were before the damper issues with 195/331s so I'm sure Northerns unit plans have changed since.

 

[The_Train]

Just a quick one, 502 has been converted, not sure about 501 though.

319009 has not been to Brush yet, 319010 has been done and is at Eastleigh for internal conversion.

So just to clarify - 769501's conversion from 319009 hasn't yet started but 769502 has been converted from 319010 and is undergoing internal mods?

 

[Ribbleman]

I know that the plan a few weeks ago was to start of with a couple of diagrams as 769s as training would not be fully completed. The 6 LTP diagrams have been produced for the full timetable period and can still be altered with STP diagrams or unit swaps on the day so I think it's unlikely that all diagrams will be 769s from the start. There was talk of some Oxford Rd trips being covered by 769s from 3rd May with a unit being left at Southport to be used on an ad-hoc basis depending on trained crew availability. All these plans were before the damper issues with 195/331s so I'm sure Northerns unit plans have changed since.

Have ASLEF’s issues with cab cooling on the Northern 769s been resolved and measures implemented or is this still to be sorted out?

 

[507021]

So just to clarify - 769501's conversion from 319009 hasn't yet started but 769502 has been converted from 319010 and is undergoing internal mods?

That's correct.