Portsmouth Harbour-Cardiff Central GWR

[CC 72100]

In the days of steam, London and Portsmouth trains stopping at STJ regularly were 10/11 mark !s long. I am sure the platforms were unaltered in the track alteration 20? years ago.
Plenty of room when 8+2 HST sets used to stop.

HSTs only stopped using SDO - 4 vehicles if I recall correctly.

Units are restricted to 5 vehicles at STJ.

Ultimately you can stop a train as long as you like, provided that it is fitted with SDO so only the platformed coaches are released. With the 158 and 16x fleet, its 5 max as that is what the platforms can safely accommodate.

 

[Stigy]

I believe the platforms that are too short for anything beyond 5 are Filton Abbey Wood, Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge (the Northbound platform, the Southbound one can fit 6), Warminster and possibly Romsey.

Some of these trains also stop at Patchway, Oldfield Park and Freshford too which are all too short for 6, possibly Severn Tunnel Junction too but I’m not sure on that one.

Romsey accommodates 6 as far as I’m aware…well, there are 6 car stop markers so I assume SWR occasionally run 6 cars?

The idea was that we’d have nothing but 5 car turbos on this line, but it didn’t last long. Regardless of how many coaches the platforms can take, in the unlikely event that we run anything longer than a 5 car, the rear coach will be locked out for the duration (or the rear 3).

Patchway is largely (totally?) served by Cardiff - Taunton/Plymouth/Penzance services; currently IETs and the few remaining HSTs. Sometimes they put a 9-car IET on the service, so presumably selective door opening is the order of the day. So do 158s/165s and 166s currently on Cardiff - Portsmouth not have SDO?

No, they don’t have SDO on 16x/158s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Romsey accommodates 6 as far as I’m aware…well, there are 6 car stop markers so I assume SWR occasionally run 6 cars?

When there were Southampton to West of England services these ran as 6-159 and server Romsey without using the selective unit opening that this stock has.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I get your logic, but 57 trains are only useful if they are in correct place, adding extra carriages to trains where they are not scheduled and not required doesn't make it ok. That's insulting to schedulers to say you got it wrong so adding to train length, simply because operators can't deliver what is scheduled.

It's not a total quantity thing, it's about having sufficient of the right type of unit in the right place. Misbalance is polite way of saying got insufficient where needed. Pretending that because there are some elsewhere then job is satisfactory, it's very low quality standard. You wouldn't say wasn't a rail adhesion train, buts it's ok sent two along another line, so why do you think its acceptable that a different standard should apply.

Your application to be a stock controller on GWR is awaited.

It’s not a case of “adding extra carriages” but having to deal with what you have on the day when you get numerous NR and external issues that alter your plan (as well as the usual unit and crew related problems) and very little chance to rectify the situation to send the right units out the following morning. Imbalances are quite common with the amount of outstation locations that GWR have for Bristol workings and the variety of formations and types that GWR have.

The prime objective is not to cancel trains so you will do things like put a layover 3 car onto the next leg of a delayed 2 car working and vice versa when the 2 car eventually appears. What goes to bed at the outstations comes back out in the morning - there is no other option and, in the case of Bristol SPM, a very large proportion of their units start the day at the outstations and there are not many options to swap units back at Bristol either.

This morning there were imbalances at Fratton, Westbury, Weymouth, Gloucester and Exeter. Your problem with 1F11 was because of the imbalance at Westbury which ended up on Sunday night with a 2 car instead of a 3 car. Outstations don’t have spare sets and it would be unreasonable to expect them to have that kind of provision.

If GWR had fixed formation 5 car units on Pompey-Cardiff and Cardiff-Penzance and 3 car and 4 car units for the rest of their services, all of one type, it would be much easier to operate, even if you get a raft of issues mucking up your days operation.

 

[Snow1964]

GWR now including the following for the How Busy section on their website

Between Bristol, Bath, Westbury, Salisbury, Southampton and Portsmouth

• trains are often busy between Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury particularly between 07:30 and 09:00 and between 15:00 and 19:00
• trains can be busy at weekends – we recommend making a reservation where you can

But go into the Frome, Westbury section, get different message not requiring reservations

Westbury to Bristol/Southampton

• between Westbury, Salisbury, Southampton and Portsmouth, most trains will have space, but are often busier between Westbury and Bristol

Train Travel News and Updates | Great Western Railway

Click here to check changes that might affect your train journey and follow up-to-the-minute GWR train travel news and updates.

www.gwr.com

Is there any other line where they suggest you make reservations at weekends, but not during the week, and the recommendation varies on different parts of same website

 

[Anonymous10]

GWR now including the following for the How Busy section on their website


But go into the Frome, Westbury section, get different message not requiring reservations

Train Travel News and Updates | Great Western Railway

Click here to check changes that might affect your train journey and follow up-to-the-minute GWR train travel news and updates.

www.gwr.com

Is there any other line where they suggest you make reservations at weekends, but not during the week, and the recommendation varies on different parts of same website

Also can the 16x offer reservations? Never seen them do so

 

[Towers]

Also can the 16x offer reservations? Never seen them do so

The 166s have reservation label holders I believe, not used though.

 

[baza585]

Only one 4 car on this route today. Rest are 2s &3s. No sign of any improvement, indeed the reverse.

I used to commute into Waterloo but this is even worse than that experience.

I don't blame GWR; yet another email to my MP who must be fed up of me.......

 

[Kite159]

The 166s have reservation label holders I believe, not used though.

Installed before seat reservations got withdrawn during Covid. Something which has never made a come back.

Making a reservation will simply be a counted place reservation, so pretty much useless as being able to board yet alone finding a seat on certain trains at weekends

 

[The exile]

Your application to be a stock controller on GWR is awaited.

It’s not a case of “adding extra carriages” but having to deal with what you have on the day when you get numerous NR and external issues that alter your plan (as well as the usual unit and crew related problems) and very little chance to rectify the situation to send the right units out the following morning. Imbalances are quite common with the amount of outstation locations that GWR have for Bristol workings and the variety of formations and types that GWR have.

The prime objective is not to cancel trains so you will do things like put a layover 3 car onto the next leg of a delayed 2 car working and vice versa when the 2 car eventually appears. What goes to bed at the outstations comes back out in the morning - there is no other option and, in the case of Bristol SPM, a very large proportion of their units start the day at the outstations and there are not many options to swap units back at Bristol either.

This morning there were imbalances at Fratton, Westbury, Weymouth, Gloucester and Exeter. Your problem with 1F11 was because of the imbalance at Westbury which ended up on Sunday night with a 2 car instead of a 3 car. Outstations don’t have spare sets and it would be unreasonable to expect them to have that kind of provision.

If GWR had fixed formation 5 car units on Pompey-Cardiff and Cardiff-Penzance and 3 car and 4 car units for the rest of their services, all of one type, it would be much easier to operate, even if you get a raft of issues mucking up your days operation.

The starting point was “do GWR have enough trains /carriages”? From a passenger’s point of view, if trains are regularly being short formed or cancelled for any reason to do with stock, then the answer is blatantly “no” - whatever the statistics say. GWR may have all the units that can be afforded or even what someone at the DfT says is “sufficient” but that isn’t the same as “enough”.

 

[Western Sunset]

There seems to be an increasing habit of swapping units at Bristol, so forcing through passengers to change to another unit there.

 

[Snow1964]

Also can the 16x offer reservations? Never seen them do so

I think both the 166 and 158s have slots in seat backs for manual card reservations, although hasn't been done for few years.

Making a reservation will simply be a counted place reservation, so pretty much useless as being able to board yet alone finding a seat on certain trains at weekends

Bit of a pointless recommendation to suggest that passengers get reservations at weekends if it is only counted place and doesn't get them a reserved seat

Between Bristol, Bath, Westbury, Salisbury, Southampton and Portsmouth

• trains are often busy between Bristol Temple Meads and Westbury particularly between 07:30 and 09:00 and between 15:00 and 19:00
• trains can be busy at weekends – we recommend making a reservation where you can

Why would anyone bother to make a reservation that doesn't get a seat. GWR should either remove the recommendation, or either reinstate the reservation cards 2 days a week, or fit electronic reservation displays. Shouldn't suggest what isn't available.

Of course in a rational world, if weekend trains are busy, solution is to provide more frequent or longer trains at weekends.

 

[Anonymous10]

Installed before seat reservations got withdrawn during Covid. Something which has never made a come back.

Making a reservation will simply be a counted place reservation, so pretty much useless as being able to board yet alone finding a seat on certain trains at weekends

I'm due a trip to Portsmouth and very tempted to go via London

 

[jayah]

This is unfortunately what happens when TOCs are told to sweat the assets with nothing extra coming in the pipeline. The Turbo fleet is currently reduced through both unavailable units (eg broken awaiting repairs) and units away for “refreshment”, while the 150 and 158 fleets are also starting to suffer. Long and short, there’s nothing that can be done until someone frees up further DMUs elsewhere - or finds a magic wand, wedge of cash, or some way to bribe the DfT into either electrification or getting the 769s to work - which would have at least meant more Turbos for Bristol.

Of course there are lots of DMUs freed up, they are parked at Chester, Holyhead and elsewhere, but nobody is allowed to use them.

Meanwhile LNER just made an order for new trains.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm due a trip to Portsmouth and very tempted to go via London

I'm very much the other way. I live near Guildford, and it's faster and cheaper to get the train from Cardiff (uni) to Reading and down, but I actively choose to get the Wessex service to Fratton and up, because it's a very pleasant and scenic route. I find the 158s very comfortable, and former first on the 166s is what I consider to be the most comfortable standard class (it is now standard, after all) seating of any train in the UK.

 

[TheWalrus]

Romsey accommodates 6 as far as I’m aware…well, there are 6 car stop markers so I assume SWR occasionally run 6 cars?

The idea was that we’d have nothing but 5 car turbos on this line, but it didn’t last long. Regardless of how many coaches the platforms can take, in the unlikely event that we run anything longer than a 5 car, the rear coach will be locked out for the duration (or the rear 3).


No, they don’t have SDO on 16x/158s.

They must have single door opening though as I have boarded and alighted both types of unit at Avoncliff before which has a very short platform!

 

[The exile]

They must have single door opening though as I have boarded and alighted both types of unit at Avoncliff before which has a very short platform!

All diesel units can do “local door”, surely, as that’s what the guard does to check before opening the rest. It’s selective door opening (ie 4 out of 5 carriages only) that only some units have.

 

[Anonymous10]

I'm very much the other way. I live near Guildford, and it's faster and cheaper to get the train from Cardiff (uni) to Reading and down, but I actively choose to get the Wessex service to Fratton and up, because it's a very pleasant and scenic route. I find the 158s very comfortable, and former first on the 166s is what I consider to be the most comfortable standard class (it is now standard, after all) seating of any train in the UK.

Yes its not a question of the stock or the scenery it's getting a seat.

 

[Towers]

All diesel units can do “local door”, surely, as that’s what the guard does to check before opening the rest. It’s selective door opening (ie 4 out of 5 carriages only) that only some units have.

Indeed, local door is an essential part of the door process anyway on Class 158 (and 150) and always has been, while the Turbo fleet were modified to enable it as part of their cascade from Reading.

At full length platforms Turbos are driver open/guard close, local door operation however is undertaken entirely by the guard with no involvment from the driver (or indeed any capability for them to do it).

 

[Snow1964]

Serious lack of serviceable trains in right place today

Eg Cardiff - Portsmouth
1F05, 1F09, 1F13, 1F21, 1F25, 1F27, 1F29,
all reduced to just 2car trains

How much longer does GWR consider it can wait for more stock and keep talking to DfT without any action. it needs to start swapping these into the trains MPs use from London on Monday morning and Thursday evening, maybe then something will happen.

 

[DJ_K666]

Last time I did that journey was in a strengthened 150/1. 5 car Cardiff to Bristol and then everyone being transferred into the 3 car unit to Portsmouth. We changed at Fratton for the Brighton train.

 

[RobShipway]

Serious lack of serviceable trains in right place today

Eg Cardiff - Portsmouth
1F05, 1F09, 1F13, 1F21, 1F25, 1F27, 1F29,
all reduced to just 2car trains

How much longer does GWR consider it can wait for more stock and keep talking to DfT without any action. it needs to start swapping these into the trains MPs use from London on Monday morning and Thursday evening, maybe then something will happen.

What is needed is for EMR to standardise their fleet by either replacing their class 158 fleet with more class 170 units or replacing both their class 158 and 170 units with a new fleet. That way the class 158 units could be passed to GWR. However, given the age of the EMR class 158 fleet and the age of the GWR fleet, it is perhaps better that these get replaced with a new fleet.

This is where I wonder if the Northern tender to replace up to 450 units as per the speculation thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-tender-for-up-to-450-units.252880/page-12#post-6475458 is a first step to replacing both Class 158, 165, 166, 168 and 170 units with many of the TOC's. But that is a subject for that speculation thread.

 

[vicbury]

Only 79 train formation updates on GWR JourneyCheck as of 0915 this morning. Given that they don't usually bother reporting when services between Cardiff and Portsmouth are 3 cars instead of 5, it must be pretty bad!

 

[DJ_K666]

I am aware that 5 car 165 diagrams are (sometimes)scheduled on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route, I know that 3 car 158s also run, I have never myself seen a 5 car 158 on this route, have they ever?

I've seen a 5 car 158/9 plus 150/2 at Brighton back when they did that. I have seen 5 car 158 formations too occasionally plus back when 150001 and 002 ran on the Brightons I was chatting to the driver and he had no idea his train was a prototype unit.

 

[baza585]

I've seen a 5 car 158/9 plus 150/2 at Brighton back when they did that. I have seen 5 car 158 formations too occasionally plus back when 150001 and 002 ran on the Brightons I was chatting to the driver and he had no idea his train was a prototype unit.

I don't miss 150s on this route! Even the Turbos are an update on Scud 1 & 2.

However if the 2 car short forms persist then I could change my view.

 

[DJ_K666]

I don't miss 150s on this route! Even the Turbos are an update on Scud 1 & 2.

However if the 2 car short forms persist then I could change my view.

Most of the time I used it it was 3 car 158s (only one with a purpose built centre coach as mentioned up thread) but I'd moved away once the Turnos arrived. That said I still remember 155s on those services and then the 156s that covered during the door problems. And before that the class 33 and 5 mk1s.

 

[JonathanH]

Only 79 train formation updates on GWR JourneyCheck as of 0915 this morning.

Not all of those are short formations. Some are longer than booked.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I've seen a 5 car 158/9 plus 150/2 at Brighton back when they did that. I have seen 5 car 158 formations too occasionally plus back when 150001 and 002 ran on the Brightons I was chatting to the driver and he had no idea his train was a prototype unit.

Indeed, 5 car 158s still make the occasional appearance. Here's what I posted 2nd Oct into this thread:
"....a pair of 1589xx on 1F09 (08:28 Cardiff-Pompey). Here are Exeter exiles 158958 (as a 2-car) + 158951"

158798 (the "true" 3-car) has also made appearances paired with 2-car 1587xx. 798 is out this way today but just by itself.

 

[Snow1964]

Not all of those are short formations. Some are longer than booked.

It doesn't really help anyone (except the operating Dept), when they randomly lengthen trains, not like everyone who bought advances gets a partial refund as more cheap seats are available

More indicates that weren't enough pre-service empty stock moves to get trains in right place to cover the short forms

 

[JonathanH]

More indicates that weren't enough pre-service empty stock moves to get trains in right place to cover the short forms

Are you suggesting that ad-hoc empty stock movements should happen overnight when trains are in the wrong place?