Possible LNER expansion.

[YorkRailFan]

With LNER ordering 10 new CAF units earlier today (9/11/2023), it has raised questions that LNER could possibly expand to new destinations in West Yorkshire, among other places. I was personally thinking of the following:

1 train every two hours from London King's Cross to Bradford Foster Square (as an extension of the Leeds service)
1 train every two hours from London King's Cross to Harrogate (as an extension of the Leeds service)
These two would alternate meaning that there would be 3tph between London King's Cross and Leeds with one extending to Harrogate at one hour and one the next hour going to Bradford Foster Square.

Another alternative is a service every hour from London King's Cross to Newcastle (meaning that there are 3tph to Newcastle), the service could extend every few hours to Sunderland to compete with GC, but this would have to be worked out with Tyne & Wear Metro increasing frequency and Northern wanting 2tph on the line.

Of course there is the Cleethorpes service which would be operated by these new CAF units or 80x, Skipton could potentially see an increase in London services, Hull could get a service every few hours and Middlesbrough could see an increase.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I suspect the truth will be rather prosaic, but this is Speculative Discussion so I'll let my imagination run wild. And for me, the immediate unserved destination that springs to mind for me is Scarborough. Would it be possible to extend (some of) the York terminating semi-fasts there, particularly during peak season? I suppose the only issue would be relatively few new journey opportunities (as York - Scarborough exists already and Doncaster - Scarborough is also possible direct though slow via Hull).

 

[swt_passenger]

With LNER ordering 10 new CAF units earlier today (9/11/2023), it has raised questions that LNER could possibly expand to new destinations in West Yorkshire, among other places. I was personally thinking of the following:

1 train every two hours from London King's Cross to Bradford Foster Square (as an extension of the Leeds service)
1 train every two hours from London King's Cross to Harrogate (as an extension of the Leeds service)
These two would alternate meaning that there would be 3tph between London King's Cross and Leeds with one extending to Harrogate at one hour and one the next hour going to Bradford Foster Square.

Another alternative is a service every hour from London King's Cross to Newcastle (meaning that there are 3tph to Newcastle), the service could extend every few hours to Sunderland to compete with GC, but this would have to be worked out with Tyne & Wear Metro increasing frequency and Northern wanting 2tph on the line.

Of course there is the Cleethorpes service which would be operated by these new CAF units or 80x, Skipton could potentially see an increase in London services, Hull could get a service every few hours and Middlesbrough could see an increase.

Most of what you suggest, eg 3 tph to Leeds (with extensions) and 3 tph to Newcastle, was already approved in a 2016 track access application, to commence with the May 2020 timetable. That has been repeatedly deferred.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Most of what you suggest, eg 3 tph to Leeds (with extensions) and 3 tph to Newcastle, was already approved in a 2016 track access application, to commence with the May 2020 timetable. That has been repeatedly deferred.

3tph to Newcastle can't happen as the 225s aren't going north of York and LNER doesn't have enough 80Xs. LNER could theoretically send the 225s to Bradford if they wanted to.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suspect the truth will be rather prosaic, but this is Speculative Discussion so I'll let my imagination run wild. And for me, the immediate unserved destination that springs to mind for me is Scarborough. Would it be possible to extend (some of) the York terminating semi-fasts there, particularly during peak season? I suppose the only issue would be relatively few new journey opportunities (as York - Scarborough exists already and Doncaster - Scarborough is also possible direct though slow via Hull).

There won’t be any York terminators when/if the planned 3 tph service to Newcastle commences.

3tph to Newcastle can't happen as the 225s aren't going north of York and LNER doesn't have enough 80Xs. LNER could theoretically send the 225s to Bradford if they wanted to.

Surely this thread is assuming the extra 10 CAF units are in place, and the 225s are gone?

 

[YorkRailFan]

I suspect the truth will be rather prosaic, but this is Speculative Discussion so I'll let my imagination run wild. And for me, the immediate unserved destination that springs to mind for me is Scarborough. Would it be possible to extend (some of) the York terminating semi-fasts there, particularly during peak season? I suppose the only issue would be relatively few new journey opportunities (as York - Scarborough exists already and Doncaster - Scarborough is also possible direct though slow via Hull).

There used to be a London-Scarborough service which ended due to COVID, although it wasn't operated by LNER. EMR operated what I believe was a 1x daily extension of their London-Sheffield service, I suspect hardly anyone would use it to travel from Scarborough to London as it would take much longer than changing at York, but I did like using it as an express between York and Scarborough as it ran nonstop.

There won’t be any York terminators when/if the planned 3 tph service to Newcastle commences.


Surely this thread is assuming the extra 10 CAF units are in place, and the 225s are gone?

Of course, I was just saying about the present as LNER has had permission to send 3tph to Newcastle for a few years now.

 

[JonathanH]

EMR operated what I believe was a 1x daily extension of their London-Sheffield service, I suspect hardly anyone would use it to travel from Scarborough to London as it would take much longer than changing at York, but I did like using it as an express between York and Scarborough as it ran nonstop.

Once a week, in the Summer. Not really designed for travel to and from London, but instead from the East Midlands.

 

[800001]

The 3 services north of York, 1xNewcastle and 2x Edinburgh are due to start December 2024.

The rumour from stakeholders is, Glasgow and Stirling service is withdrawn, as is the morning/evening Sunderland extension.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The 3 services north of York, 1xNewcastle and 2x Edinburgh are due to start December 2024.

The rumour from stakeholders is, Glasgow and Stirling service is withdrawn, as is the morning/evening Sunderland extension.

At the cost of TPE services?

 

[800001]

At the cost of TPE services?

I have no idea.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

At the cost of TPE services?

Possibly that TPE can run but forced to do so on diesel, as there’s weak OHLE up there.

The 3 services north of York, 1xNewcastle and 2x Edinburgh are due to start December 2024.

The rumour from stakeholders is, Glasgow and Stirling service is withdrawn, as is the morning/evening Sunderland extension.

I’m guessing all with Azumas. Originally, IIRC there was discussion of having a few London crewed Newcastle terminators as IC225?

 

[800001]

Possibly that TPE can run but forced to do so on diesel, as there’s weak OHLE up there.


I’m guessing all with Azumas. Originally, IIRC there was discussion of having a few London crewed Newcastle terminators as IC225?

No idea of what sets are planned to work, can imagine it’s a work in progress.

 

[Voyager lad]

The 3 services north of York, 1xNewcastle and 2x Edinburgh are due to start December 2024.

The rumour from stakeholders is, Glasgow and Stirling service is withdrawn, as is the morning/evening Sunderland extension.

I can confirm from internal comms that by December 2024, Glasgow, Stirling & Sunderland will very much be gone.

From a rostering point of view, we were told that by removing the early morning Stirling from Edinburgh, we’ll be looking to introduce an earlier service (0430/0500) to London, utilising the crew who currently sign on just after 4am for the empty train to Stirling

 

[YorkRailFan]

Once a week, in the Summer. Not really designed for travel to and from London, but instead from the East Midlands.

Was extremely convenient when I used to regularly travel to the East Midlands in the early 2010's, now one has to change in Sheffield or Derby.

The 3 services north of York, 1xNewcastle and 2x Edinburgh are due to start December 2024.

Would be good if one train every two or three hours was extended from Newcastle to Sunderland, but I doubt that it will happen.

The rumour from stakeholders is, Glasgow and Stirling service is withdrawn, as is the morning/evening Sunderland extension.

I assume that Inverness will still run 1x daily?

 

[800001]

Was extremely convenient when I used to regularly travel to the East Midlands in the early 2010's, now one has to change in Sheffield or Derby.


Would be good if one train every two or three hours was extended from Newcastle to Sunderland, but I doubt that it will happen.


I assume that Inverness will still run 1x daily?

Yes, Aberdeen and Inverness services will stay.

 

[hux385]

I can confirm from internal comms that by December 2024, Glasgow, Stirling & Sunderland will very much be gone.

From a rostering point of view, we were told that by removing the early morning Stirling from Edinburgh, we’ll be looking to introduce an earlier service (0430/0500) to London, utilising the crew who currently sign on just after 4am for the empty train to Stirling

Glasgow certainly seems pointless now that its frequency has been totally slashed in the first place. It's faster to change and use ScotRail to Queen Street most of the time anyhow, and there are lots of staff at Edi to help people with transfers. I do think that there is scope for improvement on the Newcastle-Edinburgh-Motherwell-Glasgow corridor, especially considering the buck keeps passing between LNER, XC, TPE and ScotRail. Personally, I'd transfer the whole lot to ScotRail, but knowing the current state of affairs, the LNER cutbacks will be replaced with absolutely nothing!

 

[A S Leib]

Glasgow certainly seems pointless now that its frequency has been totally slashed in the first place. It's faster to change and use ScotRail to Queen Street most of the time anyhow, and there are lots of staff at Edi to help people with transfers. I do think that there is scope for improvement on the Newcastle-Edinburgh-Motherwell-Glasgow corridor, especially considering the buck keeps passing between LNER, XC, TPE and ScotRail. Personally, I'd transfer the whole lot to ScotRail, but knowing the current state of affairs, the LNER cutbacks will be replaced with absolutely nothing!

My own preference would be for it to go to TPE, as their services terminate at Newcastle so hopefully less chance of severe delays and their service is already closest to the 'local' one between Newcastle and Edinburgh (is the plan for it to pick up the East Linton calls as well when that opens?) but I suspect that their staffing issues as it is would prevent that from happening (and I'm not sure if they'd prefer to run Edinburgh to Glasgow with frequent ScotRail competition or more Liverpool – Preston – Edinburgh / Glasgow services with less competition).

 

[greyman42]

Would be good if one train every two or three hours was extended from Newcastle to Sunderland, but I doubt that it will happen.

Where would you put the unit when it has terminated at Sunderland?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Where would you put the unit when it has terminated at Sunderland?

Send it back to King's Cross via Newcastle.

 

[RobShipway]

I believe that LNER has looked at services from such places as Cleethorpes. Now depending on the number of carriages in the CAF Civity trains which is not mentioned in the article https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/lner-orders-caf-tri-mode-inter-city-trains/65310.article, it could be that with the shorter carriages of the Civity in 5 carriage trains, that the new LNER CAF Civity trains are doing routes such as Cleethorpes - London?

 

[800001]

I believe that LNER has looked at services from such places as Cleethorpes. Now depending on the number of carriages in the CAF Civity trains which is not mentioned in the article https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/lner-orders-caf-tri-mode-inter-city-trains/65310.article, it could be that with the shorter carriages of the Civity in 5 carriage trains, that the new LNER CAF Civity trains are doing routes such as Cleethorpes - London?

The CAF trains will be 10 carriages.

 

[Northumbriana]

LNER not happy with the Azumas then?

Glasgow certainly seems pointless now that its frequency has been totally slashed in the first place. It's faster to change and use ScotRail to Queen Street most of the time anyhow, and there are lots of staff at Edi to help people with transfers. I do think that there is scope for improvement on the Newcastle-Edinburgh-Motherwell-Glasgow corridor, especially considering the buck keeps passing between LNER, XC, TPE and ScotRail. Personally, I'd transfer the whole lot to ScotRail, but knowing the current state of affairs, the LNER cutbacks will be replaced with absolutely nothing!

Scotrail controlling all services from Newcastle to Edinburgh and all IC services from the South terminating at Newcastle?

 

[YorkRailFan]

LNER not happy with the Azumas then?


Scotrail controlling all services from Newcastle to Edinburgh and all IC services from the South terminating at Newcastle?

Scotrail taking over services at Newcastle could make flights more competitive and would lower the convenience and speed of the train. But we're getting off topic there.

 

[greyman42]

Send it back to King's Cross via Newcastle.

That would need an immediate turn around with paths and crews being available.

 

[YorkRailFan]

That would need an immediate turn around with paths and crews being available.

Could be done with a crew change happening at Newcastle or the train would go to the nearby depot (forgotten the name) which GC uses.

 

[800001]

Could be done with a crew change happening at Newcastle or the train would go to the nearby depot (forgotten the name) which GC uses.

Tyne Yard which LNER do not have access to, and wasted miles.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Tyne Yard which LNER do not have access to, and wasted miles.

Could LNER get access to it?

 

[swt_passenger]

The rumour from stakeholders is, Glasgow and Stirling service is withdrawn, as is the morning/evening Sunderland extension.

Withdrawal from Sunderland was publicised/consulted on over two years ago. Allegedly no demand. I suggest the likelihood of additional services to Sunderland is negligible.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Withdrawal from Sunderland was publicised/consulted on over two years ago. Allegedly no demand. I suggest the likelihood of additional services to Sunderland is negligible.

So would the existing Sunderland service just be terminated at Newcastle? Also, there is demand for a London-Sunderland service, just look at GC, just not at the time that the LNER service leaves KGX.

 

[swt_passenger]

So would the existing Sunderland service just be terminated at Newcastle? Also, there is demand for a London-Sunderland service, just look at GC, just not at the time that the LNER service leaves KGX.

Yes. It only runs in marginal time at start and end of service, and the long way round via Newcastle. So the Kings Cross to Newcastle part of the service would probably carry on as normal. The units involved would just get extra time on Heaton depot.

I doubt LNER would ever want to run Sunderland to Kings Cross direct via the Durham coast, because that would remove equivalent capacity from Newcastle to the south via Durham and Darlington.