Preserved EMU Question

[yorksrob]

No - BR didn't really "preserve" anything.

The 2BIL you cited was a member of the National Collection when it was running in the 80s.
The 306 was part of the National Collection and on loan when being run in the 80s.

The 4SUB is just about the only thing you could argue BR "preserved".

BR didn't "preserve" anything else - they repainted a couple of units in a retro livery. Nothing more. The 4EPB you keep banging on about being a case in point - it was withdrawn with the rest of the surviving 4EPBs in 1995, until that point it was an operational EMU, not preserved in any way, shape or form.

People aren't "rubbishing" BR achievements - they're rubbishing your argument that BR "achieved" something in this space where the facts really don't support your argument. But as ever you're doing your normal trick of either denying reality or shifting the goalposts to suit your argument.

This really is getting tiresome.

Here's the starting point and the end of my argument. There were various electric units which one could travel on on the national network during the 1980's and 1990's at special events that were clearly heritage in nature. That is a matter of historical fact. With possibly the exception of the GE unit, that has not been the case since then during the privatised era. I regard that as a step backwards.

I point out this reality then I get some drivel about how I'm banging on about my preferred SR type units.

In response I point out that actually there were units from other regions around at the time, then I get another load of drivel about how BR at the time was supposedly rubbish at running and maining these units, because they didn't actually preserve every single type of first generation unit that existed.

I point out that it was good going to have had the heritage units that existed, and now apparently even though these units were maintained and looked after by BR's teams so that they could go out on the network, this still supposedly wasn't an achievement because the NRM owned some of them (something I've already pointed out on this thread BTW).

As for EPB 5001, 1995 was when the network was in the throes of privatisation. Who's to say that it might not have remained with the 4SUB and the others somewhere under the old regime.

 

[Journeyman]

As for EPB 5001, 1995 was when the network was in the throes of privatisation. Who's to say that it might not have remained with the 4SUB and the others somewhere under the old regime.

For the umpteenth time, 5001 was offered for sale and no-one wanted to buy it. It survived in storage for no less than nine years after withdrawal. In that time, not a single serious offer was made to secure its survival. That's the level of interest that exists in EMU preservation.

The SUB ceased operation at the same time the last EPBs were withdrawn, as operating it was only viable using the resources and parts that still existed for EPB maintenance. That has absolutely nothing to do with privatisation. The timing is merely coincidental.

 

[yorksrob]

For the umpteenth time, 5001 was offered for sale and no-one wanted to buy it.

The SUB ceased operation at the same time the last EPBs were withdrawn, as operating it was only viable using the resources and parts that still existed for EPB maintenance. That has absolutely nothing to do with privatisation.

It happenned precisely at the point of privatisation, and it's worth bearing in mind that the EPB's shared many components with the rest of the slammer fleet that lasted until 2005.

Actually, to be fair SWT did look after the Lymington CIG's for a while. That was a good move.

 

[Journeyman]

It happenned precisely at the point of privatisation, and it's worth bearing in mind that the EPB's shared many components with the rest of the slammer fleet that lasted until 2005.

Actually, to be fair SWT did look after the Lymington CIG's for a while. That was a good move.

Seriously, just get over it. The SUB survived, along with four 2-EPBs.

There's no way BR or any other rail company was going to keep on operating a few very old EMUs in perpetuity. Absolutely no way.

 

[yorksrob]

Seriously, just get over it. The SUB survived, along with four 2-EPBs.

There's no way BR or any other rail company was going to keep on operating a few very old EMUs in perpetuity. Absolutely no way.

I might suggest the same to you, given you've pursued this discussion over several pages.

 

[Journeyman]

I might suggest the same to you, given you've pursued this discussion over several pages.

Well, I think it's because you need some of this spelling out to you, and it seems to be taking a while.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

For the umpteenth time, 5001 was offered for sale and no-one wanted to buy it. It survived in storage for no less than nine years after withdrawal. In that time, not a single serious offer was made to secure its survival. That's the level of interest that exists in EMU preservation.

From what I remember, 5001 was stored out in the open and went to rot. The bodywork deteriorated so much which is why nobody wanted to buy it

 

[Journeyman]

From what I remember, 5001 was stored out in the open and went to rot. The bodywork deteriorated so much which is why nobody wanted to buy it

Plenty of effort was made to sell it when it was in decent nick. Still no-one wanted it.

 

[bazzoh]

Out of interest, did I read somewhere that one of the original Mersey railway units (pre 502/503) was preserved but was destroyed in a fire (if I remember correctly, was it at Derby??)
I’ve never seen any pictures of the unit in preservation or post fire and am only going off something written in a book a long time ago!

 

[Journeyman]

Out of interest, did I read somewhere that one of the original Mersey railway units (pre 502/503) was preserved but was destroyed in a fire (if I remember correctly, was it at Derby??)
I’ve never seen any pictures of the unit in preservation or post fire and am only going off something written in a book a long time ago!

Sadly true. From Wikipedia:

Car no. 1, a first-class motor coach, was destroyed in a fire at Derby Litchurch Lane Works, where it had been taken for overhaul in preparation for restoration and preservation.[54]

 

[Alanko]

Out of interest, did I read somewhere that one of the original Mersey railway units (pre 502/503) was preserved but was destroyed in a fire (if I remember correctly, was it at Derby??)

Oddly enough the preserved 303 at Bo'ness is a bitsa as the motor coach from one set was lost. On a similar note, only two thirds of a 311 survive at Summerlee in Coatbridge as one coach was scrapped following vandalism. This set had only been preserved as it had been converted to Sandite duties. All of this points to EMU preservation being a bit scattergun.

 

[A0wen]

Oddly enough the preserved 303 at Bo'ness is a bitsa as the motor coach from one set was lost. On a similar note, only two thirds of a 311 survive at Summerlee in Coatbridge as one coach was scrapped following vandalism. This set had only been preserved as it had been converted to Sandite duties. All of this points to EMU preservation being a bit scattergun.

You could add the 2 class 504s which were at the East Lancs, both "operational" though not under their own power which after a dispute of some kind led to one being scrapped.

And then there's the sorry tale of the Class 506.

The problem is they are impractical for most heritage lines, take up valuable space, have relatively few people interested in them which leads to neglect and ultimately the scrapman.

 

[Journeyman]

You could add the 2 class 504s which were at the East Lancs, both "operational" though not under their own power which after a dispute of some kind led to one being scrapped.

And then there's the sorry tale of the Class 506.

The problem is they are impractical for most heritage lines, take up valuable space, have relatively few people interested in them which leads to neglect and ultimately the scrapman.

Thankfully the surviving 504 is getting a decent restoration done on it, so it's safe now, but yes, many "preserved" EMUs aren't guaranteed a safe existence.

As far as the 506 is concerned, the 306 is obviously quite similar (apart from the 25kV conversion alterations) so at least that design is represented in preservation.

 

[Alanko]

The problem is they are impractical for most heritage lines, take up valuable space, have relatively few people interested in them which leads to neglect and ultimately the scrapman.

Its a shame heritage railways don't apply this visionary approach to more of their inventory.

 

[physics34]

Ironically EPB 5176 is urgently needing a new home.

 

[D6130]

Possibly slightly OT, but can anyone please explain to me the reason for the gap in the original 4-EPB unit numbering series between 5053 and 5101?

 

[Journeyman]

Possibly slightly OT, but can anyone please explain to me the reason for the gap in the original 4-EPB unit numbering series between 5053 and 5101?

The ones numbered from 5101 upwards were of an updated design. I think they had different motor bogies, and were allocated to different divisions when new. Afraid I can't be more detailed than that off the top of my head.

 

[bazzoh]

Sadly true. From Wikipedia:

Surely an early EMU preservation attempt?
does anyone know if this was by BR or the local museums?

 

[eldomtom2]

Then the opposite end of the end of the arugment you have the 2HAP, 2BIL and Class 306 at the NRM/Outposts. These take up ALOT of room compared to a standard size train. Eg your standard coach takes up roughly 60ft (Varies from builder/railway/era etc). Where as two of the EMUs listed is at least 120ft and the 306 being over 175ft.

I feel it is slightly unfair to compare a full EMU to a single coach. Admittedly a single coach doesn't need to be stored with anything else, but to make it useful it does at least require a locomotive...

I feel this points to the fact that looking into the possibility of loco-hauled EMUs is something EMU preservationists should be doing.

 

[Journeyman]

I feel this points to the fact that looking into the possibility of loco-hauled EMUs is something EMU preservationists should be doing.

Thing is, it only works for certain EMUs. A 33/1 or 73 on an SR 1950s or 60s EMU works a treat, but with most other units, you begin to run into problems. For anything from the PEP family onwards, you need a translator vehicle as well.

 

[Cowley]

Thing is, it only works for certain EMUs. A 33/1 or 73 on an SR 1950s or 60s EMU works a treat, but with most other units, you begin to run into problems. For anything from the PEP family onwards, you need a translator vehicle as well.

Ah but that’s where the new ‘Translator vehicle preservation society’ that I’m just about to start on Facebook will come in.
My time to shine!

 

[Journeyman]

Ah but that’s where the new ‘Translator vehicle preservation society’ that I’m just about to start on Facebook will come in.
My time to shine!

Hahahahaha! I'm in.

*investigates potential sites for the National Translator Vehicle Museum*

 

[Cowley]

Hahahahaha! I'm in.

*investigates potential sites for the National Translator Vehicle Museum*

I will be expecting you to support the crowd funding page obviously.

 

[Journeyman]

I will be expecting you to support the crowd funding page obviously.

I'm putting the house on the market as we speak.

 

[A0wen]

Hahahahaha! I'm in.

*investigates potential sites for the National Translator Vehicle Museum*

Oh, please. This is all a bit premature setting up another preservation society when there's a poor, unloved 3EPB at risk of a one way trip to Booths (and I don't mean the high-end Waitrose alternative found in the north-west of England).

Won't somebody think of the rivet counters who will have lost another of their pets. And the rest of us will have to endure this unit being beatified by various posters on here and forever lecturing us on the injustice of it and how, if only BR had survived, it could be out and about somewhere on the Southern network once a year, getting in the way of all those Electrostars and Desiros forevermore.

Let's get our priorities right !

 

[Journeyman]

Oh, please. This is all a bit premature setting up another preservation society when there's a poor, unloved 3EPB at risk of a one way trip to Booths (and I don't mean the high-end Waitrose alternative found in the north-west of England).

Won't somebody think of the rivet counters who will have lost another of their pets. And the rest of us will have to endure this unit being beatified by various posters on here and forever lecturing us on the injustice of it and how, if only BR had survived, it could be out and about somewhere on the Southern network once a year, getting in the way of all those Electrostars and Desiros forevermore.

Let's get our priorities right !

Err...I was joking!

 

[A0wen]

Err...I was joking!

So was I....... (at least the first part of the first sentence).

The rest of it is a distinct risk.......

That said, perhaps 3 EPB carriages could be converted to be the translator vehicles you need.........

 

[VEP3417]

heres my 2 pence worth/unpopular opinion having read the whole thread

it would be nice if more emus made it back to the main line, as for no one being interested in emu tours, when ive been on the 4tc or thumper its been packed to capacity...not a spare seat in the house, just a shame they dont do outings very much

there is a market for emu tours but as said it would require a lot of time and money, " the money would be better off spent on a steam train" i hear you cry but really this whole preservation thing is is about preserving what you remember, i was around in 90s london so thats the time period i remember, so thats why im so fond of southern emus ect

every one has a valid argument for and against but this forum really does attract emu haters more than anywhere else

even the mention of a wessex sets people off as to how they should all be scrapped never to be seen again because of how rubbish they are

the 4tc for instance got about 4 runs one time down to weymouth a year or so ago, that was great to see, but it would defiantly be interesting to see other liveries like br blue/nse...hell even Jaffa cake livery would be a nice change

as you can see from my avitar i had the rare chance to see 3417 attached to one of the lymington trains a long time ago...now wouldnt that make a nice tour!

 

[O L Leigh]

Ilford’s pet Cl306 was fitted with modern safety equipment to permit it to run on the mainline. Had it been possible to continue to maintain it there and given proper funding I’m sure it could still be maintained to modern mainline standards. The equipment required to make this possible could have easily been fitted and could have been recovered from another withdrawn unit if needs be in order to keep costs down.

As for a nice quiet place to operate it; Romford to Upminster perhaps…?

Speaking frankly, that this unit was allowed to get away is one of the travesties of the current preservation scene. My first time seeing it was in the New Shed at Ilford about 15 years ago, and she was a minter. When I saw it again last year at Shildon I nearly cried, especially when I was told that one of the driving cars is no longer watertight. She went from only needing a little maintenance (principally a new HT cable) and upgraded safety equipment (I’m unsure if it had TPWS at that time) to now needing a full restoration just to be fit for static display.

 

[L401CJF]

Am I right in saying the class 315 preservation groups aim is to keep a 315 in mainline running condition so that it can be used?

I'm not sure where they're up to and whether the plan will ever come to anything mind, it sounds like a very expensive task.