Preserved locos/stock hired back to mainline use?

[Class15]

Technically, the LSL electrics worked those extra Avanti trains after being preserved. Does that count?

 

[fgwrich]

37688 and 47828 are both preserved by D05 Preservation ltd, and both locos have since found their way back onto the mainline with LSL (828 initially via West Coast), while 47712 is owned by the Crewe Diesel Preservation Group and has since had hire periods to LSL (though there are some blurred lines between that).

I'm surprised though that one Dorset based class 33 hasn't been mentioned yet - with 33012 having been hired to both GBRf and West Coast. And there's been a smattering of Class 20s back on the mainline over recent years as well, again hired to GBRf for LT Stock movements.

 

[12C]

SRPS owned 37403 spent a lengthy period on hire to DRS hauling (and pushing) Northern passenger trains on the Cumbrian Coast a few years ago.

 

[43096]

Technically, the LSL electrics worked those extra Avanti trains after being preserved. Does that count?

I’d say it is highly dubious to call LSL’s traction “preserved”.

 

[david1212]

Didn't 55022/D9000 work some of the last Virgin CrossCountry services into Kent back in the early 2000s?

It did in 1998 1999
I had the slightly bizarre experience of traveling on her from Kensington Olympia to Bromley South on a one day travel card
I also travelled to Oxford from KennyO on another day

Please correct me if wrong but at this time I recall 55022/D9000 was painted Porterbrook purple so was it actually owned by them at this time? If so debatable if still preserved or an asset of Porterbrook like any other item they leased to a TOC.

 

[Cowley]

Please correct me if wrong but at this time I recall 55022/D9000 was painted Porterbrook purple so was it actually owned by them at this time? If so debatable if still preserved or an asset of Porterbrook like any other item they leased to a TOC.

The Porterbrook one was actually 55016 I believe.

 

[Class15]

I’d say it is highly dubious to call LSL’s traction “preserved”.

Why?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Oh, so I wasn't the only canny soul who did exactly that!

My photo prints, in the loft, include the rather incongruous sight of "Royal Scots Grey" in its green glory, at the head of Virgin aircon rake used for those services.

It did in 1998 1999
I had the slightly bizarre experience of traveling on [D9000] from Kensington Olympia to Bromley South on a one day travel card

 

[43096]

Why?

Because it is a full commercial operation. They just happen to use older traction.

 

[2392]

Legend has it with regards to the North London Tank. That on seeing it one of the contractors demolishing the line to East Grinstead remarked, "That engine belongs in a Museum!" To which his colleagues replied." It is!" Taking the term museum in it's widest possible meaning, insomuch as the Bluebell Railway is a "museum" railway........

 

[trebor79]

The Porterbrook one was actually 55016 I believe.

Why did Porterbrook buy a deltic? Seems an odd choice for a RoSCo to buy a single example of a long withdrawn type.

 

[1Q18]

Why did Porterbrook buy a deltic? Seems an odd choice for a RoSCo to buy a single example of a long withdrawn type.

DRS briefly owned 55016 as well, a few years after Porterbrook, although it never operated for them before being resold.

 

[DarloRich]

Why?

because they are a commercial train operator.

 

[12LDA28C]

while 47712 is owned by the Crewe Diesel Preservation Group and has since had hire periods to LSL (though there are some blurred lines between that).

As I mentioned above and indeed is currently based at Crewe Diesel, having worked a charter for LSL only last week.

I’d say it is highly dubious to call LSL’s traction “preserved”.

Some of the locos they use most certainly are preserved and are hired in from preservation groups as opposed to being owned outright by LSL.

Because it is a full commercial operation. They just happen to use older traction.

Yes, some of which is preserved e.g. 37688, 47712 and 47828.

because they are a commercial train operator.

A commercial train operator can still hire in locos from preservation groups, e.g. West Coast using 47580 and 47798.

 

[1Q18]

A commercial train operator can still hire in locos from preservation groups, e.g. West Coast using 47580 and 47798.

Indeed, LSL's steam fleet is on paper hired in from related entities such as the Royal Scot Loco & General Trust (plus a couple of extras from external organisations, such as 'Sir Nigel Gresley').

 

[trebor79]

DRS briefly owned 55016 as well, a few years after Porterbrook, although it never operated for them before being resold.

But, why? A single example of a very complicated and not simple to maintain locomotive instead of something more standard? I'm curious as to the commercial motives/thinking as it's seems anachronistic.

 

[43096]

Yes, some of which is preserved e.g. 37688, 47712 and 47828.

The context of what I replied to is important: it referred to the use of LSL electric locos on Avanti replacement workings. 86101, 87002 and 90001/2 are not preserved. Indeed the former pair were sold out of preservation.

So, yes, LSL hire in some preserved locos, but their core fleet (43s, 47s, 57s, electrics) are not preserved. And don’t start me on their marketing for the Midland Pullman…

 

[DarloRich]

I'm curious as to the commercial motives/thinking as it's seems anachronistic.

maybe they just REALLY liked it!

Indeed, LSL's steam fleet is on paper hired in from related entities such as the Royal Scot Loco & General Trust

set up by the person who owns LSL............

A commercial train operator can still hire in locos from preservation groups, e.g. West Coast using 47580 and 47798.

But LSL aren't hiring. They own. They are a TOC in thier own right.

 

[yoyothehobo]

when is a loco technically "preserved"

 

[Sun Chariot]

when is a loco technically "preserved"

When it's placed in a jar of pickling vinegar.

I'll get mi' coat and see myself out....

 

[Ashley Hill]

But, why? A single example of a very complicated and not simple to maintain locomotive instead of something more standard? I'm curious as to the commercial motives/thinking as it's seems anachronistic.

Didn’t Harry Needle own 55016 at one time and threaten to break it for spares?

 

[12LDA28C]

But LSL aren't hiring. They own. They are a TOC in thier own right.

Thanks for that insight. I'm well aware of that. They own their own locos however they do NOT own 37688, 47712 or 47828 as I've already stated, but hire them in from preservation groups for use on the main line, as did WCRC with 47580 and 47798 some years ago.

So, yes, LSL hire in some preserved locos, but their core fleet (43s, 47s, 57s, electrics) are not preserved.

Indeed, and I never suggested otherwise. But the claim made by some that a commercial operation does not use 'preserved locos' is clearly incorrect in certain cases.

 

[wce]

Regarding hired rolling stock; the loco-hauled Birmingham International - North Wales trains of the late '90s - early 2000s were formed of Mk1 coaches hired from a steam railway; I think, the West Somerset. At least one was in chocolate and cream.
The particular coaches hired were ones that had been in preservation a comparatively long time, and I was given to understand that later purchases form preservation had a 'not to be used for commercial purposes' clause but these earlier ones did not - and that the railway simply replaced the hired-out stock on their line with Mk1s by buying more.

Not sure where you got that idea from as the MK1’s you are talking about were hired from Rivera trains and main line registered for charter use. Perhaps what has confused you is that Rivera used Cranmore on the East Somerset railway as a base.

 

[AJM580]

50050 Fearless was borrowed by Anglia Railways to do Norwich - Yarmouth services vice DMU, also did Norwich to Liverpool Street. D9000 worked several Liverpool Street - Norwich trains whilst owned by 9000 fund and based at Crown Point.

 

[DarloRich]

Thanks for that insight. I'm well aware of that. They own their own locos however they do NOT own 37688, 47712 or 47828 as I've already stated, but hire them in from preservation groups for use on the main line, as did WCRC with 47580 and 47798 some years ago.

ok - and I am not trying to be argumentative here - but is there not a difference between an emergency "spot hire" of a locomotive and a longer term quasi lease arrangement giving sole usage rights over an elongated period? I say there is.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not sure where you got that idea from as the MK1’s you are talking about were hired from Rivera trains and main line registered for charter use. Perhaps what has confused you is that Rivera used Cranmore on the East Somerset railway as a base.

I can't remember either, but I understood that the coaches that were used had been privately owned for some time, dating back to before the formation of 'Riviera Trains'. Maybe V.T. sort of emerged from a preservation group? It was certainly the case that, if they had been bought at the time they would have been restricted from commercial main line use. Wish I had noted some numbers - their history will be on the Vintage Carriages Trust preserved coaching stock website

 

[1Q18]

set up by the person who owns LSL............

Yes, that was my point.

 

[12LDA28C]

ok - and I am not trying to be argumentative here - but is there not a difference between an emergency "spot hire" of a locomotive and a longer term quasi lease arrangement giving sole usage rights over an elongated period? I say there is.

I don't believe so, no. The locos concerned are still owned by the various preservation groups despite being maintained and operated on the main line by a commercial TOC. Remember also that these locomotives can and do still visit preserved railways for appearance at galas and other events, on behalf of the preservation groups, not on behalf of the TOC. For example 47712 and the DBSO rake visited the Severn Valley with preservation group members on behalf of the CDPG, LSL did not send (for example) 47810 and the 'Saphos' rake.

Long-term hire agreements such as this provide valuable income or reciprocal arrangements for preservation groups and also often result in an enhanced level of maintenance at better facilities than might be available at a preserved railway, for example overhauling, maintaining and fitting of equipment (TPWS, OTMR, GSM-R) to main line standard and so on. The flipside of this of course is the increased risk of suffering a major failure due to the locos working much harder and for longer periods than they normally would do trundling up and down a preserved line at 25mph.

 

[Spartacus]

Western Champion did a variety of freight work for GBRf with varying degrees of success. Often put out in not exactly tip top condition it was renowned for causing chaos on the MML, usually in the Kibworth or Desborough areas when it failed or slipped to a stand on the Mountsorrel - Wellingborough stone train.

 

[Cowley]

Western Champion did a variety of freight work for GBRf with varying degrees of success. Often put out in not exactly tip top condition it was renowned for causing chaos on the MML, usually in the Kibworth or Desborough areas when it failed or slipped to a stand on the Mountsorrel - Wellingborough stone train.

It also did some work on the china clay trains in Cornwall I seem to remember.