Reported crime on railway. No action taken

[43066]

It's very relevant - station staff and train crew up and down the country are probably applying it hundreds of times each day.

I mean in the sense that modern day terrorism has evolved beyond suspicious parcels being hidden on stations, as used to happen throughout the eighties and nineties. These days we are more likely to face a suicide bomber or shooter/knife attacker.

Perhaps I’m too cynical, but the HOT stuff strikes me as security theatre.

 

[Horizon22]

I mean in the sense that modern day terrorism has evolved beyond suspicious parcels being hidden on stations, as used to happen throughout the eighties and nineties. These days we are more likely to face a suicide bomber or shooter/knife attacker.

I see. Yes it has developed more as aspects like WHAT (suspicious behaviour checklist), hostile reconnaisance and Marauding Terrorist Firearms Attacks (MTFAs) are perhaps more relevant and staff will get training on these. How much that training would kick in is perhaps up for debate.

 

[43066]

I see. Yes it has developed more as aspects like WHAT (suspicious behaviour checklist), hostile reconnaisance and Marauding Terrorist Firearms Attacks (MTFAs) are perhaps more relevant and staff will get training on these. How much that training would kick in is perhaps up for debate.

Agreed, that side of it seems a lot more relevant.

 

[Stigy]

Yes - you'd be surprised by the areas they have to cover which might include multiple termini. Also if they've arrested individual(s) recently, that ties up at least 2 of them to deal with the suspect for potentially a few hours. Trains aren't going to be delayed indefinitely either.

I - and I'm sure many others - could speak from experience about how unlikely BTP will be to turn up to what I would call minor or moderate anti-social behaviour. Don't get me wrong; when they attend they can be excellent and are often better that the Met or local force wading into the situation. It's just they can be incredibly thin on the ground. A lot of their funding comes through the TOCs and NR which is ultimately funded by...the DfT. And this is where many issues stem from. What is better is for more serious issues, I think every route control has an embedded BTP officer. This is helpful for issues like trespass, infrastrcture damage and theft, fatalities etc.

Like others I am of the opinion that such minor or moderate anti-social behaviour can be a trend to a worsening level of crime for individuals that might extend beyond the railway.



It's very relevant - station staff and train crew up and down the country are probably applying it hundreds of times each day.

It has generally changed I agree, but sinister items/devices have still been left on stations and trains in recent years. WHAT was brought in because of the changing times of course.

Yes indeed - I wouldn’t ignore something obviously suspicious.

The HOT protocol seems mostly relevant to IRA style bombs, not sure how relevant it really is today.

I meant to quote this, and now can’t go back….the sentiment is the same lol.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Realistically what were you expecting to happen for something so minor? BTP generally won’t be interested and there’s nothing anyone else can really do apart from asking him to stop!

Unfortunately the decline in behaviour on the railway mirrors society as a whole.

Seems to be somewhat luck of the draw. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a busy weekend long-distance GWR service into Paddington. A group of four “lads” were brazenly smoking, despite the presence of many children, and laughing and swearing at staff and passengers who asked them to stop.

The Train Manager assured people he was dealing with the matter, and, as we pulled into Platform 1 at Paddington, the BTP welcoming committee was really quite something to behold. Multiple officers were at every single door; they weren’t going to let the miscreants slip through their fingers! Passengers elsewhere on the train must have wondered if a murderer was on the loose.

I’d have liked to watch (and maybe film) what happened next, but I had to get somewhere. I was quite surprised the police cared at all, let alone that much. I presume all those officers were at Paddington because of football fans, and they thought they might as well use them.

I myself reported the same beggar numerous times a couple of years ago, again at Paddington. He would wait at the back of the train for 10+ minutes until it set off, and I would text 61016 with all the details. Easiest plain clothes collar ever, but I rarely even got a reply. See it, say it, sod it.

 

[LowLevel]

Seems to be somewhat luck of the draw. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a busy weekend long-distance GWR service into Paddington. A group of four “lads” were brazenly smoking, despite the presence of many children, and laughing and swearing at staff and passengers who asked them to stop.

The Train Manager assured people he was dealing with the matter, and, as we pulled into Platform 1 at Paddington, the BTP welcoming committee was really quite something to behold. Multiple officers were at every single door; they weren’t going to let the miscreants slip through their fingers! Passengers elsewhere on the train must have wondered if a murderer was on the loose.

I’d have liked to watch (and maybe film) what happened next, but I had to get somewhere. I was quite surprised the police cared at all, let alone that much. I presume all those officers were at Paddington because of football fans, and they thought they might as well use them.

I myself reported the same beggar numerous times a couple of years ago, again at Paddington. He would wait at the back of the train for 10+ minutes until it set off, and I would text 61016 with all the details. Easiest plain clothes collar ever, but I rarely even got a reply. See it, say it, sod it.

Occasionally when it works that way it's a thing of beauty.

I was once on platform duty when I got a shout on the radio to say a large group were refusing to pay on a train and abusing the guard.

5 minutes before the train arrived what must have been a whole OSU of local police turned up and barricaded the train. The lads were marched off at taser point and forced to stand facing the wall with their hands on their heads until their details were taken one by one.

One or two were in tears. Marvellous.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Occasionally when it works that way it's a thing of beauty.

I was once on platform duty when I got a shout on the radio to say a large group were refusing to pay on a train and abusing the guard.

5 minutes before the train arrived what must have been a whole OSU of local police turned up and barricaded the train. The lads were marched off at taser point and forced to stand facing the wall with their hands on their heads until their details were taken one by one.

One or two were in tears. Marvellous.

Now that’s a heart-warming tale! At the risk of provoking a bunfight about cuts and/or tying up officers in the station with nonsense, I only wish such events were more than occasional.

It must be easy to feel above the law when in a large, rowdy group, given that bringing such people to book en masse usually seems to be considered more trouble than it’s worth. I almost feel sorry for them that they were unlucky enough to be an exception!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think it's everyone's civil duty to try to show that dangerous and anti-social behaviour is unacceptable to others of us. Perhaps sufficient social pressure can encourage more responsibility and preclude more serious problems. Hence I try to approach people who I think are doing something dangerous / anti-social / threatening if I think that by doing so I can (without putting myself at undue risk) discourage the behaviour. I must admit I've ended up at risk of physical violence a couple of times, on each occasion from a motorist who's objected to my complaint about their dangerous behaviour. But if lots of people actively "policed" anti-social actions so they were more commonly perceived as unacceptable, then we might find more consideration for one another became the norm, and we wouldn't need so much official (and coercive) policing.

I do agree there is the creeping indifference that allows more and more unruly behaviour. It is best to address the thin end of the wedge before law abiding passengers (and staff) give up.

Exactly my thoughts and even if the train is delayed it's better to deal with the problem there and then at Paddington where there is (presumably?) a police presence. As for this notion of just ignoring it etc, the danger then is that smoking on trains becomes the norm because nothing will be done about it.

The simple part of the punishment is if the miscreant fails to make their journey. A small cost to the rest of us to prevent a growing problem.

 

[sheff1]

I - and I'm sure many others - could speak from experience about how unlikely BTP will be to turn up to what I would call minor or moderate anti-social behaviour.

So "see it, say it, sorted" is just hot air, as if I did see and report something "which doesn't look right" it is unlikely anyone would arrive to sort it ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

So "see it, say it, sorted" is just hot air, as if I did see and report something "which doesn't look right" it is unlikely anyone would arrive to sort it ?

Would depend how important it is. An idiot smoking a fag is not as important as someone leaving an un-attended package or someone trying to look at equipment.

 

[Scott1]

I'm afraid these days I'm lucky to see a BTP police officer, even urgent calls (danger to life etc) can take half an hour or more before any officer arrives, local or BTP. The reality is there's no officers available after years of cuts. When they do attend its hit and miss, often there's a reluctance to do anything that involves detaining because that takes another 2 officers 'off the beat' for a while, and they may be the only 2 on the patch.

The problem in my area is the local problem causes know this.

 

[bramling]

So "see it, say it, sorted" is just hot air, as if I did see and report something "which doesn't look right" it is unlikely anyone would arrive to sort it ?

I wouldn’t go as far as to say “unlikely”. But certainly an element of pot luck, especially depending on location.

BTP do have the nicknames of “Be There Perhaps”, “Be There Possibly”, or the more optimistic “Be There Probably”.

To be fair BTP are normally pretty good, and as you’d expect they will prioritise things which appear to be important.

However the notion that you hit send on a phone and BTP magically appear to “sort it” is completely unrealistic.

 

[Krokodil]

Never mind BTP, the staff could have intervened and I'd be very surprised if Paddington didn't have security guards somewhere - plenty of much smaller stations do.

 

[Horizon22]

So "see it, say it, sorted" is just hot air, as if I did see and report something "which doesn't look right" it is unlikely anyone would arrive to sort it ?

Not at all - entirely dependent on the content of the report. And even if the BTP don’t / are unable to attend there and then it can still build intelligence, especially for ticketing irregularities.

 

[greyman42]

Yes - you'd be surprised by the areas they have to cover which might include multiple termini. Also if they've arrested individual(s) recently, that ties up at least 2 of them to deal with the suspect for potentially a few hours. Trains aren't going to be delayed indefinitely either.

I - and I'm sure many others - could speak from experience about how unlikely BTP will be to turn up to what I would call minor or moderate anti-social behaviour. Don't get me wrong; when they attend they can be excellent and are often better that the Met or local force wading into the situation. It's just they can be incredibly thin on the ground.

Perhaps they could look at how the BTP operate at York station because they seem to be on the scene very quickly when they are required.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Never mind BTP, the staff could have intervened and I'd be very surprised if Paddington didn't have security guards somewhere - plenty of much smaller stations do.

There’s usually at least a pair to be found near the Underground entrance. They didn’t mess around when I reported a beggar to them a few months ago.

 

[Edsmith]

Perhaps they could look at how the BTP operate at York station because they seem to be on the scene very quickly when they are required.

That's been my experience at most busy stations.

 

[sheff1]

However the notion that you hit send on a phone and BTP magically appear to “sort it” is completely unrealistic.

So why are we bombarded every day with messages telling us things will be "sorted" if we text 61016 ?

Stating unrealistic outcomes over and over again does not seem like a good idea.

 

[43066]

So why are we bombarded every day with messages telling us things will be "sorted" if we text 61016 ?

I think you’re taking it a little too literally. You aren’t likely to get an immediate police respond unless you call 999.

 

[sheff1]

I think you’re taking it a little too literally. You aren’t likely to get an immediate police respond unless you call 999.

Yes, if I called 999 whilst on a train I would expect the train to be met at the next (major) stop.

My point is that if it is unrealistic to expect BTP (or anyone else) to attend whenever something is reported "which doesn't look right", why the continued exhortations to text them in such circumstances, accompanied by a clear statement that it will be sorted.

 

[Krokodil]

I think you’re taking it a little too literally. You aren’t likely to get an immediate police respond unless you call 999.

Even then, you might eventually get a number for the insurance...

To be fair, 61016 often produces quick responses if there's an officer in the area.

 

[43066]

I wouldn't expect an immediate police response if I called 999 whilst on a train but I would expect the train to be met at the next (major) stop.

My point is that if it is unrealistic to expect BTP (or anyone else) to attend when something is reported "which doesn't look right" why the continued exhortations to text them, accompanied by a clear statement that it will be sorted.

The full “see it, say it, sorted” announcement also covers speaking to staff or police officers directly. 61016 is just one option for making contact.

If you saw a suspicious package or someone acting suspiciously you might well speak to a staff member instead. 61016 might be to report tissue beggars, giving a location and description, and enables the police to build up a picture.

Even then, you might eventually get a number for the insurance...

Ha indeed!

 

[sheff1]

The full “see it, say it, sorted” announcement also covers speaking to staff or police officers directly. 61016 is just one option for making contact.

Yes it does, but the posts I replied to were specifically talking about the outcome when reporting things by phone.

 

[Scott1]

Yes it does, but the posts I replied to were specifically talking about the outcome when reporting things by phone.

In regards to 61016 it may not result in any police response, sometimes they will phone the staff at the site and get them to check something, for example someone smoking or a bag left unattended. It's not a bad system, the problem is there's a lack of resources to attend calls. These days there's even shortages of call handlers to answer 999 calls.

All roads lead back to funding priorities.