RMT Extends Strike Action on Network Rail to Dec 24-27

[Fred26]

Compulsory redundancies need to be off the table completely, for me.
Hypothetically speaking, if we accepted that RDG offer, yes we'd get a payrise now, but come April 2024 the TOCs would be free to lay-off as many staff as they liked.
It's no good having a payrise if you're only going to get it until April 2024 and then have to worry about your job again.

 

[basfordlad]

As a fairly politicaly middle of field and level headed RMT member in a guard grade I know there needs to be a level of compromise on both sides. Personally payrise wise 4+4 would be an adequate for me. I know there needs to be modernisation in the railway especially with Sundays etc - this is something I believe most people would work with the TOCs with and find ways to save money or make the operation slicker.

However being sent that 10 bullet point list of demands was not the way to do it. Treat us with respect and open a dialogue. Most of us want to work with "them" and not against them.

Sounds very level headed. Sunday should have been a normal day for a long time

 

[Smidster]

As a fairly politicaly middle of field and level headed RMT member in a guard grade I know there needs to be a level of compromise on both sides. Personally payrise wise 4+4 would be an adequate for me. I know there needs to be modernisation in the railway especially with Sundays etc - this is something I believe most people would work with the TOCs with and find ways to save money or make the operation slicker.

However being sent that 10 bullet point list of demands was not the way to do it. Treat us with respect and open a dialogue. Most of us want to work with "them" and not against them.

This seems a balanced view.

On Pay 4+4 seems reasonable - Average wage settlements in the wider economy over the past few months are in region of 4-6% (AWE growth from ONS is more than just wage agreements as includes any changes to workforce composition etc + any resolving of Covid Base effects) and 4% in 2023-24 is in line with expected increase in earnings from both OBR and BoE. Pretty much everyone is taking a haircut relative to inflation and for me the appropriate comparison is to other pay awards.

I think it is very clear that significant reforms do need to happen - the system is completely and fundamentally broken so you can't just carry on as it is now. As a punter it seems completely illogical that a 7-day service isn't staffed in that way so something to sort out Sundays would appear to be the absolute bare minimum.

I think ticket offices are rather like bank branches - very useful to a small minority but most don't use and frankly won't notice if they go away.

I wouldn't be having the DOO / DCO fight - now isn't the time for that.

I would just beg that everyone gets into a room and sorts it out - this has dragged on far too long and is at risk of doing irreparable harm to your industry.

More selfishly I am very worried about next week - Being trapped at home in the freezing cold may well see me off.

 

[Robertj21a]

Compulsory redundancies need to be off the table completely, for me.
Hypothetically speaking, if we accepted that RDG offer, yes we'd get a payrise now, but come April 2024 the TOCs would be free to lay-off as many staff as they liked.
It's no good having a payrise if you're only going to get it until April 2024 and then have to worry about your job again.

Compulsory redundancy can happen in any organisation. Why are the railways any different ?

 

[thelongestroad]

As a punter it seems completely illogical that a 7-day service isn't staffed in that way so something to sort out Sundays would appear to be the absolute bare minimum.

Agreed. Sundays are one of our busiest days of the week now. Train crew availability is pretty good at the TOC I work for but it still needs sorting.

 

[jayah]

Do you think that a Labour government would somehow be able to find the money to pay double digit percentage increases, not just to railway workers, but to the NHS, teachers, and all the other public sector workers contemplating strike action?

The Truss / Kwarteng mini-budget's failure showed there was little scope for increasing borrowing beyond where we are already, so any such pay increases can only be funded by increasing taxes. "Soaking the rich" doesn't produce enough revenue, and I suspect business tax receipts are dropping as a result of bankruptcies, recession, and shopping diverting to tax-dodging multinationals.

The reality is that a toxic combination of Brexit, Covid and Putin's war on Ukraine have damaged our economy to the extent that we are all, on average, worse off than three years ago, and there's very little that any government, or any of us, can do about it.

Gas prices were soaring long before the invasion of Ukraine, while the unfunded spending in the Truss budget was largely the £150bn energy bailout not the much smaller tax changes.

It isn't on for anyone to demand inflation pay rises when the government is providing direct support to all households (more to those on means tested benefits) to help pay the fuel costs.

At least 40 years on we haven't got to that low point - yet

A mandatory restructuring looks like the only way this ends.

The unions and employers are miles apart and government aren't going to fund their demands because money is tight and the ripples would go across the whole public sector.

 

[Evelynm]

Gas prices were soaring long before the invasion of Ukraine, while the unfunded spending in the Truss budget was largely the £150bn energy bailout not the much smaller tax changes.

It isn't on for anyone to demand inflation pay rises when the government is providing direct support to all households (more to those on means tested benefits) to help pay the fuel costs.

Although no one complains at pensioners getting an inflation rise, and not means tested, and benefit scroungers getting their inflation increase of course. Its just working people who pay tax and keep the country running that don't deserve inflation?

 

[fishwomp]

Compulsory redundancies need to be off the table completely, for me.
Hypothetically speaking, if we accepted that RDG offer, yes we'd get a payrise now, but come April 2024 the TOCs would be free to lay-off as many staff as they liked.
It's no good having a payrise if you're only going to get it until April 2024 and then have to worry about your job again.

Think about that one for a moment.. As it currently stands, without agreement, how long is there a protection against redundancies?

 

[yorksrob]

Gas prices were soaring long before the invasion of Ukraine, while the unfunded spending in the Truss budget was largely the £150bn energy bailout not the much smaller tax changes.

It isn't on for anyone to demand inflation pay rises when the government is providing direct support to all households (more to those on means tested benefits) to help pay the fuel costs.


A mandatory restructuring looks like the only way this ends.

The unions and employers are miles apart and government aren't going to fund their demands because money is tight and the ripples would go across the whole public sector.

If they were that far apart, settlements wouldn't have been made in other parts of the railway. This seems more about the government pushing its pet projects than getting a settlement. Of the government wishlist, the only thing that really benefits passengers is getting Sundays sorted.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Although no one complains at pensioners getting an inflation rise, and not means tested, and benefit scroungers getting their inflation increase of course. Its just working people who pay tax and keep the country running that don't deserve inflation?

State pensions might be rising with inflation, but many occupational pensions aren't.
If mine is anything to go by it has a cap of 3%.
Most people have some combination of state and private pensions, so they are probably looking at about half the inflation level overall.
Pensions are of course taxable.

 

[Evelynm]

State pensions might be rising with inflation, but many occupational pensions aren't.
If mine is anything to go by it has a cap of 3%.
Most people have some combination of state and private pensions, so they are probably looking at about half the inflation level overall.
Pensions are of course taxable.

I was talking about the state pension, if you get an occupational pension as well then that makes for very happy, affluent pensioners

 

[nedchester]

Although no one complains at pensioners getting an inflation rise, and not means tested, and benefit scroungers getting their inflation increase of course. Its just working people who pay tax and keep the country running that don't deserve inflation?

So all people on benefits are scroungers are they? You’ve been reading too much Daily Mail….

 

[infobleep]

It'll be spun by the Tory press as ruining Christmas but passenger numbers low over this period anyway. People mostly travel before Christmas eve, trains don't run the next 2 days anyway. However, it will affect Saturday workers yet again.

There are train ompanies who run services
on boxing day.

The RMT have cancelled their Rest Day / overtime ban on NR, but not TOCs (although they will take a decision on that tomorrow).

This means that the network will be fully open for the period 18-23 December and 28 Dec - 2 Jan (except where affected by engineering works), although what service is able to be operated in this network is being worked on now.

Basically, all the planning for this overtime / rest day ban period has just gone in the bin, back to square one. Thanks RMT!

Why are planners less likely to strike? Is it the type of person who works there or is their some other reason?

I will add I that I support some of the reasons staff are sticking and didn't think they should have striked

 

[Falcon1200]

Although no one complains at pensioners getting an inflation rise

My (only) pension went up by precisely 3.1% this year - Not the state pension mind, a company pension which I worked extremely hard for, and paid additional contributions into. But please note, I do not begrudge, at all, rail staff a decent pay rise, but expecting to match inflation is an impossible dream.

Its just working people who pay tax

Pensioners pay tax too! In fact, 3 years ago, thanks to a quirk of the tax year and my pension payment dates, I received a demand from the Inland Revenue for an additional £1000, over and above the tax I had already paid over the year. So I think I have helped keep the country running a little.

I was talking about the state pension, if you get an occupational pension as well then that makes for very happy, affluent pensioners

Only if you get both, I do not.

It seems to me that all sides in this dispute are utterly entrenched in their positions, the Unions, the railway industry and the Government, and I despair of any solution soon. Inflammatory language from all involved does not help, I note the BBC reporting Mick Lynch talking about 'unsafe Driver only operation'; A method of working used in the UK for around 40 years, and in which his members participate thousands of times a day!

Whether we like it or not, the Government has a huge majority, and another couple of years to go. Given the likelihood of defeat at the next General Election what incentive is there for them to bow to the Unions' every demand, and OTOH what incentive is there for the RMT, a Union dedicated to dismantling the capitalist system) to agree to any compromise? Not to mention that crippling the railway and thus reducing fare income, plus also now possibly disrupting major and hugely expensive engineering work, is hardly likely to lead to more money for the industry.

BTW what pay increase are the RMT offering their own staff?!!

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I heard on the radio (5 live) this morning that the strikes are expected to cost the economy £1.7bn. If the DfT don’t back down with that kind of potential loss in tax revenues, they aren’t going to, and the RMT have left themselves absolutely nowhere else to go.

 

[43066]

It isn't on for anyone to demand inflation pay rises when the government is providing direct support to all households (more to those on means tested benefits) to help pay the fuel costs.

What abject nonsense… “inflationary” pay rises are not on on… Other than for pensioners, benefits claimants, average wage growth in the private sector, and the city bonus cap being raised I suppose?

Utterly laughable.

 

[KM1991]

I heard on the radio (5 live) this morning that the strikes are expected to cost the economy £1.7bn. If the DfT don’t back down with that kind of potential loss in tax revenues, they aren’t going to, and the RMT have left themselves absolutely nowhere else to go.

And when the nurses, the firefighters and all other public sector disputes continue then what? This government is a shambles that has delivered nothing but managed decline over the last 12 years…leading to this very moment. All standards of living are down, the value of our money continues to weaken, everything they manage turns to s***. Many, many, many people have had enough now.

 

[Parjon]

I expect a couple of the government demands have been thrown in so they can be "negotiated out", giving the Union a win while at the same time messaging those on strike that next time they might not be so lucky.

 

[yorksrob]

I expect a couple of the government demands have been thrown in so they can be "negotiated out", giving the Union a win while at the same time messaging those on strike that next time they might not be so lucky.

If that's the case, I wish they'd get on with it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems to me that all sides in this dispute are utterly entrenched in their positions, the Unions, the railway industry and the Government, and I despair of any solution soon. Inflammatory language from all involved does not help, I note the BBC reporting Mick Lynch talking about 'unsafe Driver only operation'; A method of working used in the UK for around 40 years, and in which his members participate thousands of times a day!

I heard Mick Lynch being interviewed by Justin Webb today.
He was challenged about "unsafe" DOO as Justin travels to work every day on a DOO service to/from Victoria, which is clearly not "unsafe".
Lynch did not attack the technical safety aspects of DOO, but said passengers "feel less safe" when there are no onboard staff.
Actually many DOO operators do have other staff on board (OBS etc), they just don't operate the doors.
I can understand the opposition to further spread of DOO from the job/T&C point of view, but not the supposed safety angle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What abject nonsense… “inflationary” pay rises are not on on… Other than for pensioners, benefits claimants, average wage growth in the private sector, and the city bonus cap being raised I suppose?

Utterly laughable.

Most people in the private sector will get nothing at all this year, and probably next too. If averages are that high it's because of a few silly-high settlements.

 

[Carlisle]

I expect a couple of the government demands have been thrown in so they can be "negotiated out",

Wouldn’t that seem largely pointless, given the sheer number of disputes/strikes government is currently facing ?

 

[43066]

Most people in the private sector will get nothing at all this year, and probably next too. If averages are that high it's because of a few silly-high settlements.

Not sure that’s correct at all, certainly based on the people I know, including several on 10% plus (with no strings). People have had quite enough of this nonsense now.

Private sector wage growth also at five times that of public sector growth according to the FT a few months ago:


https://www.ft.com/content/d819ba3b-d886-42dd-9be9-511134fc69d2

UK private sector pay grew almost five times as fast as public sector workers’ remuneration in the year to May, according to official data released as ministers prepare to sign off on real-terms wage cuts for teachers, doctors and NHS staff.

 

[66701GBRF]

So all people on benefits are scroungers are they? You’ve been reading too much Daily Mail….

Where did he say “all“ benefit claimants are scrounges?

 

[Bald Rick]

Why are planners less likely to strike? Is it the type of person who works there or is there some other reason?

well those I speak to a) want to do the right thing for passengers, and b) want to do a good job.

oh and c) have been well briefed so understand what this dispute is really about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure that’s correct at all, certainly based on the people I know, including several on 10% plus (with no strings). People have had quite enough of this nonsense now.

You don't have strings in the private sector in the same way because job roles naturally ebb and flow. I don't, for instance, get any extra for adopting new tech as such and nor should I. I'd only expect more for major changes to my T&C e.g. if my hours changed substantially (e.g. lots of weekend working) and many wouldn't even get that in lower level roles.

Only place I see those sorts of raises is where people are progressing still.

 

[LOL The Irony]

oh and c) have been well briefed so understand what this dispute is really about.

Yeah, both sides want to take and neither want to give.

 

[Smidster]

Not sure that’s correct at all, certainly based on the people I know, including several on 10% plus (with no strings). People have had quite enough of this nonsense now.

Private sector wage growth also at five times that of public sector growth according to the FT a few months ago:


https://www.ft.com/content/d819ba3b-d886-42dd-9be9-511134fc69d2

"Anecdata" really doesn't mean anything without proper data to support it.

"Wage growth" in 2021-22 should be taken with a large pinch of salt due to Covid which substantially impacted the composition of the workforce and of course comparing back to a period when lots of people were on reduced pay / furlough so it isn't a measure of pay awards for that period.

Public Sector pay was frozen in 2021-22 so of course wage growth was low. The pay settlements for 2022-23 (averaging 5%) won't yet fully appear in the stats.

 

[43066]

well those I speak to a) want to do the right thing for passengers, and b) want to do a good job.

oh and c) have been well briefed so understand what this dispute is really about.

Funnily enough those exact same three points also apply to all the striking staff I speak to!

 

[HSTEd]

Although no one complains at pensioners getting an inflation rise

Oh people most certainly do, just they are ignored because the government has for reward pensioners for electoral loyalty

benefit scroungers getting their inflation increase of course. Its just working people who pay tax and keep the country running that don't deserve inflation?

How many of these RMT staff are literally at risk of freezing to death this winter?

Given the inflation and the meagre means of a substantial fraction of benefit recipients , this is an entirely feasible outcome