RMT Industrial Action - Hull Trains

[Watershed]

Can you elaborate here please? If a scheme is closed to any new contributions, surely that affects (or is "wrought upon") all existing members?

Yes, there isn't a special "manager's corner" of the Hull Trains RPS section that will be unaffected. Now, some "managers" will actually be employed by FirstGroup and hence won't be part of the Hull Trains section. But that's a completely different issue.

These kinds of changes have already gone through at most other non-franchised TOCs and FOCs, not to mention a few franchised TOCs. So I really don't see why they think striking is going to get them anywhere here.

Why is closing the scheme to new contributions unreasonable?

Well it will put a spoke in the wheels of white a number of members' pension plans. But ultimately there is no legal (or, I would argue, moral) entitlement to accrue future rights/contributions at favourable current conditions.

In most cases I'm aware of, where a railway employer has closed their DB section to new contributions, they have offered a quite generous DC scheme instead. Normally with 1.5× matching contributions, with (in some cases) well north of 10% employer contribution. That's a lot better than you'd get in 95% of private sector roles.

The value of the DB RPS option has already been substantially reduced, seeing as it is now a Career Averaged Revalued Earnings (CARE) scheme rather than a strict final salary scheme as it used to be.

 

[Starmill]

Well it will put a spoke in the wheels of white a number of members' pension plans.

Will it though? It's not really viable in pension planning to just assume that you'll be entitled to make future pension contributions on the same terms as your previous ones. That's why as I say if you reckon you have a good institutional scheme you will want to contribute the most you can afford to. Past contributions are of course a different matter. Where an entitlement has already been paid for, changing it actually can ruin your pension plans.

 

[notadriver]

Apparently she's moved to TfL as Director of Buses which personally I think is a demotion going from heading up a railway company to dealing with buses

Once you get to director level it doesn’t seem to matter whether you manage buses, trains or e-scooters.

 

[185]

Blame the evil, satanic union corbynite cult whilst whiter than white FirstGroup offers £500M in dividends to shareholders

Cost of settling this, with so few HT staff would have been (comparatively) buttons

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...after-us-sales/ar-AAMqMhh?ocid=BingNewsSearch

FirstGroup promises extra £135m for shareholders after US sales​

August Graham

22/07/2021

Rail operator FirstGroup has tried to win back the good graces of its shareholders by announcing it will give half a billion pounds to them following the unpopular sale of two US businesses. FirstGroup said its UK rail and bus business is recovering from the pandemic. The company has proposed returning £500 million to shareholders, from the sale of the school bus and transit divisions stateside. The figure is an increase from the previously proposed £365 million shareholder payout. Just over six in 10 shareholder votes were in favour of the £3.3 billion deal in May following opposition from the group’s two biggest shareholders.

 

[alistairlees]

Blame the evil, satanic union corbynite cult whilst whiter than white FirstGroup offers £500M in dividends to shareholders

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...after-us-sales/ar-AAMqMhh?ocid=BingNewsSearch

Are any of these shareholders, errr, pension funds?

 

[185]

Are any of these shareholders, errr, pension funds?

That really wouldn't surprise me!

 

[Meerkat]

Blame the evil, satanic union corbynite cult whilst whiter than white FirstGroup offers £500M in dividends to shareholders

Cost of settling this, with so few HT staff would have been (comparatively) buttons

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...after-us-sales/ar-AAMqMhh?ocid=BingNewsSearch

Not sure what your point is? Are only rails workers allowed to make a profit out of the railway?

 

[Starmill]

Blame the evil, satanic union corbynite cult whilst whiter than white FirstGroup offers £500M in dividends to shareholders

Cost of settling this, with so few HT staff would have been (comparatively) buttons

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...after-us-sales/ar-AAMqMhh?ocid=BingNewsSearch

Pensions are an ongoing cost though of course, as new staff join the business they'd enrol in the pension and the firm would then take on their pension liabilities for that person's whole retirement. The dividend is paid once and only once.

Not sure what your point is? Are only rails workers allowed to make a profit out of the railway?

And of course none of the employees are shareholders. Oh wait.

 

[Nunners]

Blame the evil, satanic union corbynite cult whilst whiter than white FirstGroup offers £500M in dividends to shareholders

Cost of settling this, with so few HT staff would have been (comparatively) buttons

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...after-us-sales/ar-AAMqMhh?ocid=BingNewsSearch

As it explains in the article, those dividends are not operating profits but a 1-time payment due to the sale of First's US operations, and therefore has nothing to do with Hull Trains

 

[Taunton]

Are there still airline pilots driving asda delivery vans at £10.50 an hour ? Why haven’t they been able to find other piloting jobs like most train crew would if their franchise failed ?

A huge number. Many let go, hardly anyone is recruiting.

 

[Carlisle]

Why haven’t they been able to find other piloting jobs like most train crew would if their franchise failed ?

Airlines who go bust usually cease to exist, failed franchises get bailed out via operator of last resort procedures & staff TUPEd accordingly

 

[notadriver]

In the case of hull trains which of course is a open access operator there may be no bailing out - operations could and have been covered by LNER.

i suppose with being a pilot one could relocate to another country where there are jobs as opposed to driving a supermarket delivery van. I know of a Metrolink tram driver who returned to that job 3 times after his flying contract was seemingly summer only.

 

[Meerkat]

If I was DfT I would be finding out if LNER could cover Hull from current staff resources and if so then making sure that got leaked…..

 

[ainsworth74]

Why do people think that LNER/DfT would do anything other than continue to run the one return journey per day that they always have? I'm not sure there's any actual evidence that they would run more than that if HT actually failed.

 

[Meerkat]

Why do people think that LNER/DfT would do anything other than continue to run the one return journey per day that they always have? I'm not sure there's any actual evidence that they would run more than that if HT actually failed.

Hull were presumably making money out of it? And if LNER could do it with current resources then why wouldn’t they?

 

[Bald Rick]

i suppose with being a pilot one could relocate to another country where there are jobs as opposed to driving a supermarket delivery van

Aviation is a global business, and has had a significant global downturn. There aren’t pilots jobs going anywhere.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hull were presumably making money out of it? And if LNER could do it with current resources then why wouldn’t they?

Perhaps they would but it seems very brave to just assume that if HT go bust LNER will fill the gap. My comment was more that it seems like some people aren't very worried about HT going because LNER will just step up to the plate. I don't think there's any evidence that they would do so. They might. But I would suggest it's 50/50 at best.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hull were presumably making money out of it?

Barely. Less than £1m profit in the last full year pre covid.

And if LNER could do it with current resources then why wouldn’t they?

LNER can barely resource their own services at present.

 

[Meerkat]

Perhaps they would but it seems very brave to just assume that if HT go bust LNER will fill the gap. My comment was more that it seems like some people aren't very worried about HT going because LNER will just step up to the plate. I don't think there's any evidence that they would do so. They might. But I would suggest it's 50/50 at best.

LNER is effectively state run and likely to be political pressure from local MPs and ‘levelling up’ to do something.

Barely. Less than £1m profit in the last full year pre covid.

That is presumably after paying off some debt?? If (see below…) they had the resources already then LNER could do it cheaper.

LNER can barely resource their own services at present.

Trains (presumably it would be a buyers market to lease the then unused Hull Trains Hitachis?), or staff (due to Covid or even without that?)?

 

[Wolfie]

Hull Trains spent three periods, two of which were for several months, with no service yes. They also said that they made some staff redundant and have cut costs in other areas of the business. In general, they also shut down earlier and started up later than the similar operator Grand Central. Although it hasn't been put in black and white, it certainly seemed like there was a real chance that the business could fail. Indeed, although prospects have substantially brightened, there's obviously no guarantee they'll be a sustainable business now.

That's certainly the context in which the following quote from the company must be read:



In general, no pension scheme members have the right to make future contributions on the same terms as they do for current contributions. A reason why it is prudent, if you have particularly good terms today, to contribute as much as you can afford.

l neither have any real knowledge of this dispute nor am l any sort of fan of RMT. However, l do have a certain sympathy with them over this one. I strongly suspect that they fear that something done with respect to pensions in a small financially struggling open access TOC could end up being the thin end of a very big wedge. It could be deemed to set a precedent for what other, much more financially stable, rail industry employers seek to do. Remember that HMG have already talked about wanting pension changes to cut costs going forward.

BUT where is ASLEF? that's what counts.

Indeed.

 

[Meerkat]

l neither have any real knowledge of this dispute nor am l any sort of fan of RMT. However, l do have a certain sympathy with them over this one. I strongly suspect that they fear that something done with respect to pensions in a small financially struggling open access TOC could end up being the thin end of a very big wedge. It could be deemed to set a precedent for what other, much more financially stable, rail industry employers seek to do. Remember that HMG have already talked about wanting pension changes to cut costs going forward.


Indeed.

That’s not the Hull staff’s problem to be martyrs over though.

 

[Taunton]

If I was DfT I would be finding out if LNER could cover Hull from current staff resources and if so then making sure that got leaked…..

Or the opposite, actually, it would surely be in LNER's interests, and indirectly DfT's as well, if Hull Trains go under. Maybe they have a mole working for them at the union ...

 

[zwk500]

LNER is effectively state run and likely to be political pressure from local MPs and ‘levelling up’ to do something.

There is a very substantial difference between the pressure applied through words (not worth the bytes they're stored on) and the pressure applied through money. Invariably, when Local MPs are presented with the bill their proposal would incur, they become rather quiet.

 

[Watershed]

I strongly suspect that they fear that something done with respect to pensions in a small financially struggling open access TOC could end up being the thin end of a very big wedge. It could be deemed to set a precedent for what other, much more financially stable, rail industry employers seek to do. Remember that HMG have already talked about wanting pension changes to cut costs going forward.

It's not the thin end of the wedge, the 'precedent' was set lots of year ago. This is just a continuation of the existing industry-wide process of DB schemes being closed to new entrants and contributions.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

DfT were content with LNER's 2 London trains a day with other journeys needing a change at Doncaster until Hull Trains came along. They're hardly likely to think differently now, so if Hull Trains go under then Hull will be as hard to reach as it used to be.

 

[westv]

DfT were content with LNER's 2 London trains a day with other journeys needing a change at Doncaster until Hull Trains came along. They're hardly likely to think differently now, so if Hull Trains go under then Hull will be as hard to reach as it used to be.

Has nothing changed in the 21 years since HTs started?
Hopefully though it won't come anywhere near that.

 

[Bald Rick]

They're hardly likely to think differently now

Why? There’s a bigger market now.

 

[whoosh]

You can be more or less guaranteed that the pension changes proposed won't be wrought upon the management, nor will they be taking a pay cut or their numbers being drastically cut.

Pension changes will be wrought upon the management...

...there isn't a special "manager's corner" of the Hull Trains RPS section that will be unaffected.

...However, it turns out that although management will be affected, there will be, in fact, a special "manager's corner".

RMT, usually representing the lower paid workers, with the consequent lower pension benefits, are understandably peeved about this. As are ASLEF:

 

[HSP 2]

Pension changes will be wrought upon the management...



...However, it turns out that although management will be affected, there will be, in fact, a special "manager's corner".

RMT, usually representing the lower paid workers, with the consequent lower pension benefits, are understandably peeved about this. As are ASLEF:

After reading that, that's taking the p???

 

[Starmill]

much more financially stable, rail industry employers

It's not clear to me that there are any 'financially stable' rail industry employers at the moment, save insofar as Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson permit them to be with the use of public funds.

Remember that HMG have already talked about wanting pension changes to cut costs going forward.

Current railway pension scheme costs to the public funds are definitely an issue everywhere, I agree. Or nearly everywhere - they may not be at GC and ECTL

It's not the thin end of the wedge, the 'precedent' was set lots of year ago. This is just a continuation of the existing industry-wide process of DB schemes being closed to new entrants and contributions.

Indeed. And it is effectively a process that has been moving economy-wide over the last few decades too, not merely rail industry.