RMT rejects latest offer from both Network Rail and RDG (TOCs)

[mrmartin]

Problem for the RMT is that it not really top story news anymore when there are strikes. The longer it goes on the less media impact it has, especially now journalists can (mostly) WFH and aren't directly affected like they used to be.

 

[CE142]

It really needs to be stepped up now.

Something like every Saturday indefinitely would be ideal although would miss commuters. Perhaps ASLEF members could do their bit too. Didn't conductors on Northern strike every Saturday for a time?

Yes Northern Conductors did in their dispute with Arriva over DOO, which was actually never resloved it is still 'suspended' All those 'Pop-up Guards' who were quite happy to work the odd Tuesday or Friday to get them out of the Office suddenly didn't want to work every Saturday! I wonder why?
As for the offer that the RMT has rejected, quite right too, why would anyone accept a pay cut and the trashing of their Terms and Conditions?

 

[bramling]

Completely and utterly irrelevant.

There is a clear and defined formula to determine MP pay (it increases in line with average public sector earnings) and has been taken completely out of MPs hands.

Whilst I agree their pay is a completely separate matter, it does rather grate that they’re getting a pay rise off the back of absolutely *dire* performance over the last few years. If any “industry” needs reforms it’s this one.

Ever heard the phrase "echo chamber" with those having views not following the loudest voices keeping quiet or risk getting bullied or cast to one side as unmutual.

Those not agreeing simply staying quiet or lying when it comes to agreeing to things. What people say in public doesn't always reflect what they would do in the privacy of their own home/voting booth. How many people will say they will vote labour/lib dem but secretly vote for the tories when it comes to putting that cross on the paper?

How many reps simply discarded any feedback which didn't fit their own personal views when it came to feeding back to the main council about the deal?

Whilst I agree with the premise of the above, I think on this occasion there really is significant strength of feeling. Some people might well vote for something like the current offer simply as they’re worn down by the whole thing, however people really are peeved about all this, especially when they see handouts being dished out elsewhere. And of course don’t underestimate the impact of the inflammatory rhetoric constantly coming out of the government - indeed Liz Truss mentioned rail unions something like four times in her final PMQs didn’t she IIRC?

 

[JonathanH]

a one hour walkout at 0745 each day means no pay for that shift…

Right, so that doesn't work then. The odds are unfairly stacked too heavily against the workers in this.

 

[Meerkat]

As for the offer that the RMT has rejected, quite right too, why would anyone accept a pay cut and the trashing of their Terms and Conditions?

If they didnt want to lose money going out on strike and they didnt think that there would be a better offer.

 

[Thirteen]

Whilst I agree their pay is a completely separate matter, it does rather grate that they’re getting a pay rise off the back of absolutely *dire* performance over the last few years. If any “industry” needs reforms it’s this one.

In MPs defence, it's all parties who have MPs getting a pay rise not just the Government and the Tories. It wouldn't be fair to say that you're not getting a payrise because a number of them do a lot of good for their communities.

 

[bramling]

In MPs defence, it's all parties who have MPs getting a pay rise not just the Government and the Tories. It wouldn't be fair to say that you're not getting a payrise because a number of them do a lot of good for their communities.

I would be a little more sympathetic to that argument if the oppositions had been pulling their weight. Labour are still very much in second gear, and the scrutiny of policies like the Covid response (which is what’s caused a good proportion of the current issues) was non-existent.

 

[bazzarati]

Whilst I agree their pay is a completely separate matter, it does rather grate that they’re getting a pay rise off the back of absolutely *dire* performance over the last few years. If any “industry” needs reforms it’s this one.



Whilst I agree with the premise of the above, I think on this occasion there really is significant strength of feeling. Some people might well vote for something like the current offer simply as they’re worn down by the whole thing, however people really are peeved about all this, especially when they see handouts being dished out elsewhere. And of course don’t underestimate the impact of the inflammatory rhetoric constantly coming out of the government - indeed Liz Truss mentioned rail unions something like four times in her final PMQs didn’t she IIRC?

Workers are disbelieving of the company oft cited claims of poverty that they can't afford this or that. They've all heard of the casino pay that is being dished out on strike days where not only managers are being paid huge sums for a few hours work, but even roster clerks and HR workers are coming in on 12 hour shifts and receiving huge pay for practically nothing. This just makes people very angry. NR are as usual shooting themselves in the foot with this. With ministers acknowledging that keeping the dispute going is costing more than settling it. It reveals how ideological this is and how intractable it's becoming.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think there are elements in the RMT who do want to use it to damage the Government. And equally the Goverment wants to use it to damage the unions.

In lay mans terms, political willy waving from both sides.

Sadly yes. And the result is passengers and the railways suffer.

So are travellers facing more strikes later in February? Or more likely March onwards?

March onwards I would have thought.

Saturday 4th March I think is a near certainty of being a strike date.

Agreed.

 

[ashkeba]

ludicrous wasting of money. But - to get back to the subject matter at hand - there's realistically nothing the government can now do to get out of the usurious IEP contracts and so it's hardly relevant to have been brought up in relation to this dispute.

It sort of is relevant, isn't it, that there always seems to be ludicrous money for this government to waste on bankers but rarely sensible money to pay the workers in line with inflation?

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately the strikes will continue indefinitely. The RMT is likely going to find it difficult to continue escalating action, given that doing so would start to seriously impact staff pay to the point that it would not be sustainable.


Given the decreasing media coverage I think if the Government was going to capitulate it already would have done.

It is likely 20+ months until the next election. By which time the pay deal the Union will be demanding will no doubt have climbed further (from continuing inflation over that period) and be even less palatable to the (likely new) government after the election.
If people think 9% is a terrible pay offer, the reality is that continuing to strike just means they get 0%.

The railway is no longer the political hot button it once was, and we can expect this to continue in our new remote working and electric road transport world.

 

[the sniper]

It is likely 20+ months until the next election. By which time the pay deal the Union will be demanding will no doubt have climbed further (from continuing inflation over that period) and be even less palatable to the (likely new) government after the election. If people think 9% is a terrible pay offer, the reality is that continuing to strike just means they get 0%.

Let's be clear, in the case of the operators, 5% for 2022, 4% for 2023, where the greatest issue for many is not the percentages offered but the completely ridiculous way in which conditions have been attached. You're not daft, so I wouldn't expect you to peddle the simplified line.

 

[LowLevel]

The national framework idea for RDG clearly isn't working. It needs to go down to TOC level.

My grade will never accept floating rest day patterns and the proposed pay structure for guards because a year ago we signed off a deal with the DfT after 14 years on and off to resolve both of those issues after 3 years of strikes and a lot of hard work on all sides.

We aren't going to dispense with those for anyone so they shoot the whole thing down straight away.

 

[gazr]

and the civil servants have already announced striking for that day.

Additionally it should be pointed out in earlier posts referring to MPs pay that MPs had a 4% pay rise in April 2022 to north of £84000 never mind this years taking it to over £86000

MPs are the CEOs of this country. £86, 000 if anything is too low, and why we end up with questionable types in parliament!!

As train drivers are quick to point out the general public have no idea what their job entails, so do you know what a MP does? If it were that cushy, everyone would be one, right?

 

[Watershed]

It sort of is relevant, isn't it, that there always seems to be ludicrous money for this government to waste on bankers but rarely sensible money to pay the workers in line with inflation?

What have the IEP or 700 contract got to do with bankers?

Giving public sector employees a no-strings inflationary payrise would simply deepen the budget deficit and thus require more cutbacks elsewhere - and more to the point, not only would it do so this year, but it would also do so for every year going forwards, with future increases compounded.

 

[gazzaa2]

Yes they will but they are at risk of being utterly overwhelmed with demands from all parts of the public sector and they wont have the resources to deliver what any of the unions are demanding. Rachael Reeves is currently looking like a far stricter chancellor than Hunt and his predecessor who have sprayed cash around all over the place to keep the red wall voters and pensioners onside. So i just hope they are being clear with the unions what the art of the possible is going to be as publicly they appear to be stand offish with ministers need to talk with union leaders as the answer when we know full well the answer is simple - money.

This government are happy to ride this out and let Labour have to deal with all the pay demands.

The question is whether RMT members (and the general public) are prepared for another 18 months to 2 years of strikes and the damage it will do to the railway. And also whether RMT have actually realised that the government are not interested in solving this dispute (no offers in good faith) and are happy to wait it out until Lynch and his union gets a bloody nose which is what they actually want more than to solve the dispute.

It backs RMT into a corner because strike action is getting them nowhere against a government that don't care. For RMT's point of view waiting it out until Labour get in might not give them the resolution they want then either.

It was stepped up, significantly, in December & January. 11 days of action for NR, and 8 days plus overtime / Rest Day ban for TOC, plus some TOCs had additional action. What did that achieve, other than lose people thousands of pounds?

I said at the time that was a last throw of the dice by RMT and the government haven't blinked. The government aren't bothered.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Well what a surprise...not.

Pathetic to not even put it to a vote... especially as it has been over 2 weeks since this was received.

The statement is also very concerning - Absolutely no sign of any ability or willingness to compromise.

I just wish I earned enough to be able to lose as much pay as these folks seem to.

It was put to an online straw poll to RMT branches. It was returned as a resounding no.

 

[Bantamzen]

Disappointed it didn't go to a vote. I'd accept rejection by the staff but I think for the Union management, like for the Tories, it has become a class war.

I've yet to read through the rest of the thread, but this I totally agree with. Not putting it to the members is an outrageous misuse of executive power. As many will know here I've never been in favour on these, or indeed all other strikes given the perilous economic situation the country is in. But for well paid (and not losing any money) execs to decide they don't like the deal, despite the fact that their members might be coming to the point where strikes are causing more harm than good for them, without a proper mandate really does demonstrate that this isn't about the membership any more. Sadly this will just help drive through the anti-union legislation currently awaiting reading in the House of Lords, and will probably help spawn more.

Well done RMT execs, you must really be proud.

 

[Snow1964]

This government are happy to ride this out and let Labour have to deal with all the pay demands.


I said at the time that was a last throw of the dice by RMT and the government haven't blinked. The government aren't bothered.

That's the reality, staff have a simple choice, stop losing money as strike action is not achieving anything further, or continue for another 18-23 months until a general election.

But by then the minimum service level legislative that RMT have caused to be introduced will be active, so RMT will just be seen badly by other unions. And great chunk of members will be fed up having lost money for no real gain over starting offer months ago.

Unfortunately RMT executive didn't see (or were to blinkered to see) the anti union legislation. And instead of taking the initiative offering acceptable changes that saved money whilst making sure their members got share of savings in form of higher wages, instead chose to dig in and assume Government would just find extra money. But RMT will never admit to misjudging government not caring about the strikes.

 

[Parjon]

In MPs defence, it's all parties who have MPs getting a pay rise not just the Government and the Tories. It wouldn't be fair to say that you're not getting a payrise because a number of them do a lot of good for their communities.

But it would be fair to say, "you're not getting a payrise because you're paid handsomely, the country is in dire straits, people are being asked to make sacrifices and - as someone who is supposed to be in selfless service - you need to set an example."

As an aside, I often hear the "good work" line trotted out for these types without anyone being able to point to something that actually merits it. The opposition parties included.

The next Labour government will be a one term affair replaced with a reactionary party, probably Reform, precisely because of this acute lack of self awareness or humility.

 

[Dan G]

I’m an Aslef member but I know that Mick Lynch has attended several very large meetings with as many members as possible in attendance. On my area there were 4 TOCS in attendance and the overall outcome was to reject the offer.

Secret ballots were called for and introduced for a reason.

I think a lot of people listening to Lynch in the Today programme this morning will be concluding that the union leadership held all these consultations but not a ballot for a reason.

 

[ar10642]

But it would be fair to say, "you're not getting a payrise because you're paid handsomely, the country is in dire straits, people are being asked to make sacrifices and - as someone who is supposed to be in selfless service - you need to set an example.

As an aside, I often hear the "good work" line trotted out for these types without anyone being able to point to something that actually merits it. The opposition parties include

Why does MPs pay have anything to do with this dispute?

The next Labour government will be a one term affair replaced with a reactionary party, probably Reform, precisely because of this acute lack of self awareness or humility.

100% won't happen.

 

[philosopher]

Problem for the RMT is that it not really top story news anymore when there are strikes. The longer it goes on the less media impact it has, especially now journalists can (mostly) WFH and aren't directly affected like they used to be.

WFH I think is a big reason why the dispute is still ongoing, as it means it is less disruptive to the economy. Five years ago, the government would have had little choice but to find an agreement as a long running dispute would have been to disruptive to the economy.

The RMT do seem to be aware of this and hence are hence targeting leisure travellers by striking on Saturdays. The risk here is this ends driving leisure passengers away from the railways whom I suspect are able to shift to other modes of transport more easily than commuters are. At the moment it is just about tolerable for leisure travellers as most Saturdays are not impacted, but if the RMT were to strike every Saturday then I think the equation would change significantly for those passengers.

 

[Goldfish62]

Secret ballots were called for and introduced for a reason.

Well yes, it's the one part of Thatcher's anti Union legislation I couldn't disagree with.

Anyone around in the 70s will know that at the mass meetings held to vote for strike action by show of hands there was endemic bullying and intimidation.

 

[Towers]

Quite frankly striking every saturday would play straight into the hands of government, who are desperate to downplay current rail usage and set the network on a path of long term stagnation and cost-stripping, and would no doubt relish the idea of the currently very healthy weekend leisure travel market dwindling away. The unions need to be very careful here; perhaps for the first time ever there is a real possibility of doing lasting damage to the industry, which is in a position of fragility not seen for generations. Let's hope they realise this.

 

[Fred26]

What have the IEP or 700 contract got to do with bankers?

Giving public sector employees a no-strings inflationary payrise would simply deepen the budget deficit and thus require more cutbacks elsewhere - and more to the point, not only would it do so this year, but it would also do so for every year going forwards, with future increases compounded.

We haven't asked for an inflationary pay-rise, strings or no.

That's the reality, staff have a simple choice, stop losing money as strike action is not achieving anything further, or continue for another 18-23 months until a general election.

But by then the minimum service level legislative that RMT have caused to be introduced will be active, so RMT will just be seen badly by other unions. And great chunk of members will be fed up having lost money for no real gain over starting offer months ago.

Unfortunately RMT executive didn't see (or were to blinkered to see) the anti union legislation. And instead of taking the initiative offering acceptable changes that saved money whilst making sure their members got share of savings in form of higher wages, instead chose to dig in and assume Government would just find extra money. But RMT will never admit to misjudging government not caring about the strikes.

Acceptable to who? None of the changes proposed are acceptable to me, or any of the colleagues I've spoken to.
We're not opposed to change, but to completely rip up our terms and conditions is not acceptable.

 

[Bantamzen]

Quite frankly striking every saturday would play straight into the hands of government, who are desperate to downplay current rail usage and set the network on a path of long term stagnation and cost-stripping, and would no doubt relish the idea of the currently very healthy weekend leisure travel market dwindling away. The unions need to be very careful here; perhaps for the first time ever there is a real possibility of doing lasting damage to the industry, which is in a position of fragility not seen for generations. Let's hope they realise this.

Its no longer a possibility, cuts are now becoming a reality and these strikes are making it easier for the government to make them. The decision by the RMT executive to not take the offer to the membership is literally playing into the hands of the government. Its pure madness.

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite frankly striking every saturday would play straight into the hands of government, who are desperate to downplay current rail usage and set the network on a path of long term stagnation and cost-stripping, and would no doubt relish the idea of the currently very healthy weekend leisure travel market dwindling away. The unions need to be very careful here; perhaps for the first time ever there is a real possibility of doing lasting damage to the industry, which is in a position of fragility not seen for generations. Let's hope they realise this.

Announcing every Saturday indefinitely would be very helpful for me as a passenger as it would give me certainty. And from a personal point view I tend to avoid Saturdays because they're so busy and plagued with rail replacement buses.

But on your point about damaging leisure travel, yes of course it would.

 

[Sly Sloth]

The issue I see is ticket offices will close and platform staff will be regraded. Unfortunately at my toc almost all of these grades have come in during the strike! Most would accept the latest pat offer but the RMT quite understandably won’t let it go to vote

 

[185]

Reckon leaving the booking office closures then total de-staffing by stealth is the sticking point. The way forward is probably to address their costs and bring them down.

Conspiracy theorist in me considers this to be some sort of property land-grab, once closed, sell the ticket offices off below market value as retail space... who financially benefits from this theft?