RMT rejects latest offer from both Network Rail and RDG (TOCs)

[Towers]

The issue I see is ticket offices will close and platform staff will be regraded. Unfortunately at my toc almost all of these grades have come in during the strike! Most would accept the latest pat offer but the RMT quite understandably won’t let it go to vote

This is something that the union would do well to start addressing; the policy of lumping everything TOC-related into one dispute means that some members now have no idea what it is that they're actually fighting for (or against!), and makes getting a perspective quite a challenge. Of course, the union is using this approach because the harsh reality is that very few of the grades are actually able to cause the disruption that effective strike action needs, but sooner or later those grades will surely start tiring of carrying the combined union can for everybody else, particularly if for certain issues the writing is very obviously on the wall.

 

[LAX54]

It was put to an online straw poll to RMT branches. It was returned as a resounding no.

It was done via zoom, with branches giving the views of their members locally, it should have gone to a proper referendum for staff to respond to,
The dispute(s) are so mixed up now, the media etc have not got a clue who is striking for what, and that also applies to some staff !
Operations side, as each strike is called, so the membership shrinks a little more.

 

[Sly Sloth]

Theres an easy way to end the dispute…..offer the signallers a big pay rise, do the same with the drivers, bring in the Southern OBS grade nationwide and offer the voluntary redundancies scheme to all staff.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The issue I see is ticket offices will close and platform staff will be regraded. Unfortunately at my toc almost all of these grades have come in during the strike! Most would accept the latest pat offer but the RMT quite understandably won’t let it go to vote

The RMT can call days of strike action in their disputes with Network Rail and the train operators but the RMT cannot force any of their members involved in the disputes to take part in the strike action, the RMT has to persuade them to take part. There have been reports that many have turned up to work on strike days. I therefore do not understand why the RMT leadership decided not to hold a vote of members involved in each dispute on the offers received to find out the level of support of all members involved for continuing each dispute before making a decision on whether to continue each dispute or to settle.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Theres an easy way to end the dispute…..offer the signallers a big pay rise, do the same with the drivers, bring in the Southern OBS grade nationwide and offer the voluntary redundancies scheme to all staff.

Don't Scotrail have a second safety-critical person on each train regardless of who closes the doors?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The RMT can call days of strike action in their disputes with Network Rail and the train operators but the RMT cannot force any of their members involved in the disputes to take part in the strike action, the RMT has to persuade them to take part. There have been reports that many have turned up to work on strike days. I therefore do not understand why the RMT leadership decided not to hold a vote of members involved in each dispute on the offers received to find out the level of support of all members involved for continuing each dispute before making a decision on whether to continue each dispute or to settle.

The RMT are not bothered about people turning up as they will get paid and the strike will still cause the disruption they want to achieve. The operators and NR wont risk planning anything extra as they can't be sure whose going to come in. Until Lynch accepts that the industry is in a difficult place and that vast amounts of money are being expended to support it but they need to provide a contribution this wont move forward. He needs to get the exec to move the red lines so they can demonstrate they will engage with meaningful workplace changes but i suspect the likes of Dempsey and others on the nat exec wont budge.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unfortunately at my toc almost all of these grades have come in during the strike! Most would accept the latest pat offer but the RMT quite understandably won’t let it go to vote

Why "quite understandably". If they're confident that members don't like the offer then they'll be confident of its rejection.

 

[Sly Sloth]

Why "quite understandably". If they're confident that members don't like the offer then they'll be confident of its rejection.

I’m not sure it’d get rejected, are you?

Don't Scotrail have a second safety-critical person on each train regardless of who closes the doors?

This is the future, DCO with a guaranteed 2nd person on board. If only the RMT would see that

 

[Goldfish62]

The RMT are not bothered about people turning up as they will get paid and the strike will still cause the disruption they want to achieve. The operators and NR wont risk planning anything extra as they can't be sure whose going to come in.

An important point. For all the reports of staff turning up for work I'm not seeing any demonstrable improvements in the the service offered on strike. It was never like this in the past, but then the government didn't bail out TOCs to the extent that they are doing now. There is simply no incentive for the TOCs to adjust service levels against predicted staff numbers turning up for work.

I’m not sure it’d get rejected, are you?

From talking to my railway friends and how they've changed their views recently I tend to agree. They don't like the offer(s), but don't think they're going to get anything better.

So, possibly the RMT are denying the majority of their members an offer that they wish to (reluctantly) accept. That's a sure way to lose members.

 

[LowLevel]

Theres an easy way to end the dispute…..offer the signallers a big pay rise, do the same with the drivers, bring in the Southern OBS grade nationwide and offer the voluntary redundancies scheme to all staff.

I'd get an instant £8000-£10000 per annum payrise if you did that. Conductors here are on £31,000 per annum Sundays inside, probably one of the cheapest on the network. Little chance of that happening though

That with absolutely no chance of DOO trains in my operating area any time soon anyway.

 

[baz962]

I'm wondering if people on here actually realise some of these conditions the government wants. some of them are appalling.

 

[modernrail]

What do you mean by ‘these meetings’? People who never go to branch meetings attended. It wasn’t a branch meeting, it was a general RMT attended by as many RMT members from all branches and TOC’s or otherwise who wished to go in my area. The place was full and the majority wanted to reject the offer.

Why not go the extra step and put to a vote?

Really our strike laws should include an obligation to reaffirm membership backing for strike action following offers. I am surprised they don’t already. Is the current law that you only need 1 vote and then you can go ahead and strike for as long as you want, based on that 1 vote and with no obligation to affirm continued backing for a strike? Seems like a very odd state of affairs if so.

 

[Sly Sloth]

I'm wondering if people on here actually realise some of these conditions the government wants. some of them are appalling.

This is why there’s needs to be some form of compromise because it’s coming in one way or another. If the guards on southern had only signed off part of what was wanted for DOO running then they’d be in a far stronger position now! But due to the stubbornness of the RMT it all went DOO. Sometimes you have to give a little but the RMT seem hell bent on leaving out the most important people in the current dispute…..their members

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I think RMT might struggle to get another ‘yes’ mandate from their members for industrial action.

 

[Sly Sloth]

I think RMT might struggle to get another ‘yes’ mandate from their members for industrial action.

Despite what I’ve said I’m going to disagree with this. I think plenty WOULD vote to continue strike action and then come in anyway just to show some false solidarity in the hope that it’ll improve their position. I do think a pay referendum would sail through

 

[Sunset route]

And who exactly are you? How are you getting all this feedback? If those people are so eager to settle why did they not attend the meetings or feedback to their reps what they want?

For the record I'm a signaller at a ROC and a quick straw poll in our Whatsapp group (Signallers/SSMs) had us at around 65/35 in favour of rejecting the offer and continuing action either strike/OT ban or both.

I also work in a large signalling control centre and the general opinion is roughly the same 65/35 in continuing the action with the main points of contention being not the pay offer but the conditions attached.

 

[john349uk]

There's talk the strikes may go on until the election next year, when many think a Labour government is an absolute certainty. However that's over a year away, there could be a big scandal on the Labour front bench and it also looks like inflation will have reduced considerably by then, the Tories have a big majority currently so I believe it wouldn't take much for them to get back into the running or there could be a hung parliament, what then for the workers who are hanging out for what they see as the salvation of a Labour government? Of course its looking good for Labour at the moment but things can change.

 

[yorkie]

Can we please stick to matters that are on the topic stated in the thread title, namely RMT rejects latest offer from both Network Rail and RDG (TOCs).

If anyone would like to go on a tangent to discuss any other matter (even if indirectly related), please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) in the appropriate forum section; you are welcome to link to it from this thread.

 

[Horizon22]

Reckon leaving the booking office closures then total de-staffing by stealth is the sticking point. The way forward is probably to address their costs and bring them down.

Conspiracy theorist in me considers this to be some sort of property land-grab, once closed, sell the ticket offices off below market value as retail space... who financially benefits from this theft?

The thing is, if the RMT do campaign on this, it's only delaying the inveitable. Fewer and fewer tickets are going to be sold physically in years to come and whilst I appreciate the guidance that a ticket office can give you, some have done no favours to their grade. The cost of running them and the staff on a ticket/day basis puts them in the firing line. The vast majority of the population will happily use their phone / tablet / laptop / deskop / TVM to buy their more complex ticket, a percentage that will only increase. Have a look at how few tickets are being told in some places on the Overground - yes its London and contactless and Oyster is prevalent, but it's a starting point on data.

What should happen is a multi-skilled station role with someone able to sell the core tickets on a machine like a guard and major hubs to still keep their ticket offices. That being said with the latter, having used Waterloo, Paddington, Reading and Liverpool Street all recently, they already only seem to have half the windows open and even then there's hardly a queue, even at peak leisure times. As for the land "theft" sounds a bit excessive and rather conspiratorial - many of these places might earn more money in retail rent that they do currently based on ticket sales, or they would remain as staff space or storage.

The direction of travel is only one way, although I do feel for the staff affected.

 

[irish_rail]

I'm wondering if people on here actually realise some of these conditions the government wants. some of them are appalling.

Exactly. Why would people want a below inflation payrise with conditions that will make their working lives miserable. There is more to life than money and the media like to forget that sometimes.

 

[Horizon22]

I think RMT might struggle to get another ‘yes’ mandate from their members for industrial action.

The thing is the % in favour is probably extremely varied dependent on grade, location and TOC at this point.

 

[jon0844]

Conspiracy theorist in me considers this to be some sort of property land-grab, once closed, sell the ticket offices off below market value as retail space... who financially benefits from this theft?

The thing is, I can't see how it is going to be possible to close the ticket offices and repurpose for retail space, as many ticket offices will contain stores, a safe, toilets and other facilities for staff on the platform. As such, even if you close the windows that doesn't mean you can shove a Costa in there.

Obviously you save on less staff, but if the DfT thinks it can suddenly make money from extra retail space, I think it will be sadly mistaken.

Plus, a ticket window is still a logical place to have staff who can do customer service even if not selling a ticket. Otherwise passengers have to wander around a station, perhaps with multiple platforms, looking for them.

What happens when a wheelchair user arrives at a station and wants to make staff aware to get them on the next train to Y? Or a visually impaired passenger?

 

[Pacerpilot]

I'm wondering if people on here actually realise some of these conditions the government wants. some of them are appalling.

Absolutely this. I don't see any other public sector roles facing the attack on their T&Cs to such a degree, for a comparable pay offer.

 

[Thirteen]

The thing is, if the RMT do campaign on this, it's only delaying the inveitable. Fewer and fewer tickets are going to be sold physically in years to come and whilst I appreciate the guidance that a ticket office can give you, some have done no favours to their grade. The cost of running them and the staff on a ticket/day basis puts them in the firing line. The vast majority of the population will happily use their phone / tablet / laptop / deskop / TVM to buy their more complex ticket, a percentage that will only increase. Have a look at how few tickets are being told in some places on the Overground - yes its London and contactless and Oyster is prevalent, but it's a starting point on data.

What should happen is a multi-skilled station role with someone able to sell the core tickets on a machine like a guard and major hubs to still keep their ticket offices. That being said with the latter, having used Waterloo, Paddington, Reading and Liverpool Street all recently, they already only seem to have half the windows open and even then there's hardly a queue, even at peak leisure times. As for the land "theft" sounds a bit excessive and rather conspiratorial - many of these places might earn more money in retail rent that they do currently based on ticket sales, or they would remain as staff space or storage.

The direction of travel is only one way, although I do feel for the staff affected.

Honestly the RMT should have learnt from the TfL ticket office closures that this is a battle they cannot win in the long run.

 

[exbrel]

Seems bizarre to ask for the deal to be tweaked and then throw it in the bin as totally unacceptable.

Are RMT negotiators and NEC not talking?

back aways a offer was recomended by the negotiators to go forward, only for the rmt executive reject it, and we hear calls from the unions, that "this and that" be removed from the talks, but a honest question what have the unions conceded..Also in my opinon as a ex union member, now tetired, the rmt by not putting the offer to a ballot, have not come out in a very positive light...
mike lynch should ask himself, the great Tony Benn's quote, of 5 questions of democracy.

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

 

[Goldfish62]

Absolutely this. I don't see any other public sector roles facing the attack on their T&Cs to such a degree, for a comparable pay offer.

I think this is the heart of the matter.

 

[gazzaa2]

Problem for the RMT is that it not really top story news anymore when there are strikes. The longer it goes on the less media impact it has, especially now journalists can (mostly) WFH and aren't directly affected like they used to be.

The government were screaming for everyone to get back to the office before this dispute. Now they're happy people can wfh

 

[Watershed]

I think this is the heart of the matter.

Do the organisations which those public sector employees work for also require far more subsidy than pre-Covid?

 

[fishwomp]

Plus, a ticket window is still a logical place to have staff who can do customer service even if not selling a ticket. Otherwise passengers have to wander around a station, perhaps with multiple platforms, looking for them.

What happens when a wheelchair user arrives at a station and wants to make staff aware to get them on the next train to Y? Or a visually impaired passenger?

Same as happens at the 1,000 stations without a ticket office today - for the ones with no other customer service / platform staff.
Or no change at all for those that do have platform staff.

Even those with a ticket office are not always manned - many not in the afternoons, few in the evenings.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Absolutely this. I don't see any other public sector roles facing the attack on their T&Cs to such a degree, for a comparable pay offer.

every other public sector body is providing a service that has never relied upon an income stream to part fund it.

Until the unions accept the industry has a problem, not of its members making granted, and accepts that actually it could drive the solution for change to help deliver the economies need whilst retaining work for its members this is never going to get solved In all likelihood more of its members will be impacted in the long term the longer this drags on and Labour have no more of a money tree than the Tories and whatever they have will go on NHS and Education first with everybody left with the crumbs. Lynch should be proactive and say we will recommend the offer but offer alternative conditions that meet RDG half way for example.