Rolling Stock - masses of stock coming off lease

[TheWalrus]

Its awkward though, if GWR operate their West of England fleet as 150s, 158s, 165s and 166s. Currently it is 143s, 150/1s, 150/2s and 153s, which are all similar and can be coupled together. Turbos cannot be coupled wih Sprinters, so that factor is going to be a pain for GWR.

Good point but if there were enough 165s to replace all the sprinters in Exeter and maybe Laira and Long Rock it wouldn’t be a problem. Then again I’m not sure how many there are.

Update: chiltern have 39 also what would be the possibility of Chiltern wanting to take advantage of more spare mk3s and have more loco-hauled sets, internally cascading 168s and releasing 165s?

 

[cactustwirly]

Good point but if there were enough 165s to replace all the sprinters in Exeter and maybe Laira and Long Rock it wouldn’t be a problem. Then again I’m not sure how many there are.

Update: chiltern have 39 also what would be the possibility of Chiltern wanting to take advantage of more spare mk3s and have more loco-hauled sets, internally cascading 168s and releasing 165s?

The CH 165s are limited to 75mph, so would have to be diagrammed separately from the GW sets

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Much of the discussion in this thread fails to include what we already know about the headline plans for the West Midlands Franchise. Clearly in what you see below there will be some interim arrangements to be resolved but to remind you of what has been posted elsewhere on this site I will copy it below with the provenace. What is clear is that the GA and WMT class 170s are up for grabs in 2020.

Train services
December 2018
• Major timetable recast, based on improving the performance of Birmingham New Street− currently the highest cause of secondary delay to train services in the whole of the UK
• We will do this by reducing turnround services by up to 50%, freeing up platforms to allow any later running trains to make up time
• This will help all Train Operators including Cross Country and West Coast services.

We will also:
• reduce journey times between Euston and Birmingham and Euston and Crewe
• run new through services between London and Birmingham International to Liverpool and Walsall and between Nuneaton, Coventry and Leamington Spa
• introduce additional services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham and Wolverhampton and Crewe
• provide a new hourly Sunday service between Shrewsbury and Birmingham
• run additional earlier and later services to Hereford, Crewe, Northampton and Liverpool.
December 2019
• We will double the services between Nuneaton and Coventry SX and SU via the Ricoh Stadium after completion of the new bay platform at Coventry. We will replace the single car train with 2 car Class 172 trains. On Saturdays we will run 3 trains per hour
• There are plans to build 7 new stations in the West Midlands, subject to the successful completion of feasibility studies
• Stourbridge Junction terminators will reverse and we have an aspiration to run them to a new station at Brierley Hill, converting the existing double freight lines to two single lines, one passenger and one freight
• We plan to extend Kidderminster terminators onto the Severn Valley Railway, subject to a new station being built at the West Midlands Safari Park.
May 2021
• A new Sunday timetable that runs as many services as Saturdays, doubling the current number ofservices. A new Sunday service will run between Bedford and Bletchley.
December 2023
• We have an aspiration to extend Brierley Hill services to interchange with the new Midland Metro station we have planned for at Canal St.

Fleet
December 2018
•172/0 introduced from GOB 8x2car
•230/2 introduced Bedford-Bletchley 3x2car.
December 2019
•350/4 introduced from TPE 10x4car.
December 2020
•All 15X and 170 removed
•New DMUs introduced, 12x2car and 14x4car.
May 2021
•350/2 removed
•New EMUs introduced, 42x5car and 36x3car.

http://www.stourbridgelineusergroup.info/News - New Franchise - Abellio Presentation.pdf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's worth bearing in mind that the 350/1s weren't designed for the south WCML, they came about as a result of a reduced SWT order, so were somewhat of an "accident".

It's interesting to speculate what trains Silverlink/Central would have acquired for Euston/Liverpool services if the SRA had not forced the 350s on to them because of the limited funding then available.
There weren't many non-4-car EMUs in use then - the 444s broke the mould.
Actually the 450-350 conversion was intelligently done and they have worked well on the WCML.

 

[northwichcat]

^ Would there have been any rolling stock changes for Liverpool? They could have kept the through Stansted Airport services operated by 170s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Its awkward though, if GWR operate their West of England fleet as 150s, 158s, 165s and 166s. Currently it is 143s, 150/1s, 150/2s and 153s, which are all similar and can be coupled together. Turbos cannot be coupled wih Sprinters, so that factor is going to be a pain for GWR.

AIUI it would at least in theory be a simple fix to allow Turbos to work with Sprinters, just rewiring the electrical connections in the couplers. Though any that were modified wouldn't be able to work with unmodified units. Actually doing it and getting it to work might be harder than talking about it though!

 

[Starmill]

I'm shocked that anyone would think that the 455/456s should have been kept around on SWR for another 10 years. They are clapped out, cause major dwell time issues and are hellish in summer due to the lack of aircon on trains. Really they should have gone years ago.

Why? Their new traction equipment is designed with a lifespan of at least another decade.

 

[Domh245]

Why? Their new traction equipment is designed with a lifespan of at least another decade.

Just because they can, doesn't mean that they should.

 

[Starmill]

Just because they can, doesn't mean that they should.

What? Malcolmffc said that the 455s "should have gone years ago" and that nobody would ever have thought they would last for another decade.

I was pointing out that this is nonsense and lots of people did think that they would last long enough for that. Indeed they put millions of pounds of their money on that fact by replacing the traction equipment. If there weren't 10 years or more of life in them, this wouldn't have happened.

I make no comment on what they should do but that would still be possible.

 

[Chester1]

Hopefully battery powered trains will become more viable in the next few years partly because of the value of a second hand EMU falling. Cornwall and Devon would be a good choice if Exeter to Penzance is ever wired (unfortunately probably never). There could be oppertunities in the North West too. Recharging on wired parts and at the termini of the lines would probably be insufficient at the moment without excessive turn around times but hopefully that will which change.

 

[TheWalrus]

The CH 165s are limited to 75mph, so would have to be diagrammed separately from the GW sets

Which would be fine to replace sprinter operated services in Devon.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Q: Are the Anglia 170's 3 or 4 cars?

Just thinking that they'd be ideal for NDL trains to then pass the remaining 165/166 fleet down to the West.

 

[Starmill]

There are 4 2-car units and 8 3-car units. No 4-cars.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There are 8 2-car units and 4 3-car units. No 4-cars.

Ta. Don't know why I thought there were 4 cars!

 

[Starmill]

The 'reason for editing' appears to have vanished with the forum upgrade (or, at least I can't find it!) I have now fixed that anyway, sorry!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

That 8 x 3 car 170 fleet would perfect for NDL fasts and the 2 cars for the stoppers.

 

[Mikey C]

I know C2C have a franchise commitment to buy new top up stock, but surely that is one franchise where it would make far more sense to reallocate secondhand Electrostars when they become available, more compatible with their 357s than any new stock, and when they come to replace their fleet, they'll be replacing a fleet with a similar age, rather than 90% life expired stock and 10% stock with 15 years left.

 

[Roast Veg]

I know C2C have a franchise commitment to buy new top up stock, but surely that is one franchise where it would make far more sense to reallocate secondhand Electrostars when they become available, more compatible with their 357s than any new stock, and when they come to replace their fleet, they'll be replacing a fleet with a similar age, rather than 90% life expired stock and 10% stock with 15 years left.

The available electrostars are no more compatible than new build.

 

[bramling]

That 8 x 3 car 170 fleet would perfect for NDL fasts and the 2 cars for the stoppers.

Quite a reduction in seats compared to Turbos, with no real increase in standing room.

What the line really needs is electrification on the 3rd rail, and being operated by either Southern or SWR using some of the many soon-to-be-spare EMUs. Doesn't look likely to happen though. Any notion of doing this line on AC is not really viable due to the amount of DC already present.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Quite a reduction in seats compared to Turbos, with no real increase in standing room.

What the line really needs is electrification on the 3rd rail, and being operated by either Southern or SWR using some of the many soon-to-be-spare EMUs. Doesn't look likely to happen though. Any notion of doing this line on AC is not really viable due to the amount of DC already present.

But for most of the day, they're perfect for it. It's only during the peak time that thing's might get a bit friendly, but those who commute to and from Reading to Wokingham, always have the chance to use the SWR service a few minutes before or later and get a seat.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Chiltern can’t just get rid of their 165s though!!!!

 

[Chester1]

Chiltern can’t just get rid of their 165s though!!!!

They (or the next franchise holder) can at the end of their leases or if the rosco would benefit from a cascade. I would be surprised if there are substantial changes to Chiltern rolling stock before the end of the franchise in 2021 afterwards big changes are possible. The back bone of Chiltern's fleet are DMUs which are desperately needed elsewhere. 165s will likely stay but 165/168s/172s could go. 4-5 coach Voyagers or Meridians would be more suitable for fast Chiltern services.

 

[Jonny]

Chiltern can’t just get rid of their 165s though!!!!

You mean the tripcock and ATP-fitted ones?

 

[Mikey C]

They (or the next franchise holder) can at the end of their leases or if the rosco would benefit from a cascade. I would be surprised if there are substantial changes to Chiltern rolling stock before the end of the franchise in 2021 afterwards big changes are possible. The back bone of Chiltern's fleet are DMUs which are desperately needed elsewhere. 165s will likely stay but 165/168s/172s could go. 4-5 coach Voyagers or Meridians would be more suitable for fast Chiltern services.

Surely Chiltern would be ripe for some sort of electrification, the only London terminus served completely with diesels will start looking seriously out of place in a world where by 2021 electric buses and cars will be more common place. By then everything will be electric out of Paddington (except the sleepers), while bimodes will be replacing the diesels out of St Pancras.

And for those who say that further electrification is off the agenda, I imagine some serious pressure from the Mayor to remove diesels, at least from the London end of their route network

 

[MatthewRead]

They (or the next franchise holder) can at the end of their leases or if the rosco would benefit from a cascade. I would be surprised if there are substantial changes to Chiltern rolling stock before the end of the franchise in 2021 afterwards big changes are possible. The back bone of Chiltern's fleet are DMUs which are desperately needed elsewhere. 165s will likely stay but 165/168s/172s could go. 4-5 coach Voyagers or Meridians would be more suitable for fast Chiltern services.

You've just said the 165's will stay and then said go don't you mean the 165's will be replaced with 170's and possibly the loco hauled sets will be replaced with 222's that would make sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've just said the 165's will stay and then said go don't you mean the 165's will be replaced with 170's and possibly the loco hauled sets will be replaced with 222's that would make sense.

Why would overweight, wastefully-laid-out 125mph Class 222s be sensible on a 100mph regional express line for which regional DMUs with posh interiors (i.e. 170s) are perfect?

 

[IanXC]

Why would overweight, wastefully-laid-out 125mph Class 222s be sensible on a 100mph regional express line for which regional DMUs with posh interiors (i.e. 170s) are perfect?

I tend to agree as things stand, however there is a good opportunity to increase line speeds on this route, there are opportunities to provide dynamic loops on the former 4 track alignment in places, and so the idea of a further upgrade to the route is not out of the question.

 

[Essan]

Surely Chiltern would be ripe for some sort of electrification, the only London terminus served completely with diesels will start looking seriously out of place in a world where by 2021 electric buses and cars will be more common place. By then everything will be electric out of Paddington (except the sleepers), while bimodes will be replacing the diesels out of St Pancras.

Not everything - I don't think the Cotswold Line will be electrified by then? So trains out of Paddington to Worcester, Malvern and Hereford will still be diesels

 

[Domh245]

Not everything - I don't think the Cotswold Line will be electrified by then? So trains out of Paddington to Worcester, Malvern and Hereford will still be diesels

Won't they be operated by IETs, and thus able to use the overhead wires until they diverge from the electrified route?

 

[Essan]

Won't they be operated by IETs, and thus able to use the overhead wires until they diverge from the electrified route?

Oops... forgot we were getting them! But are all the services being replace with IETs? I thought it'd just be those currently operated by HSTs, with the Adelantes still running in between?