Route closure leading to greatest strategic loss

[Irascible]

The Tiverton loop was actually "Red", for the larger GWR locos, at limited speed, because of a history of flooding on the main line from the Rivers Culm and the upper Exe - though it could do nothing for Cowley Bridge. Last used as such in the big 1962 floods I think.

The Jct-Town ( the ex B&ER bit ) line was certainly Red, I'm pretty sure the Exe Valley line wasn't though. I did a school project on it, but please don't expect me to remember schoolwork from 35 years ago I have seen a photo of an express at the Jct with a large Prairie preparing to head off to the Town & off to Exeter somewhere.

Culm valley flooding is still an occasional nuisance ( I think, not really local anymore ) but then again flooding where it meets the Exe is a bigger nuisance. Even before all the closures if you wanted to get from Bristol to Torquay when the area was flooded you'd have to go a heck of a way round ( what were the options - Bath-Templecombe-Exeter, Bath-Trowbridge-Westbury-Yeovil which of course is still there, Taunton-reverse-Yeovil via Langport or go through Chard, or via Barnstaple + Plymouth! ).

 

[Blade Fisher]

The Banbury-Leicester section of the GC; if this had been preserved and a chord built at Ullesthorpe to link it with the Midland Counties line to Leicester, there wouldn't now be a blind spot between the East Midlands and the Thames Valley. It would have had some freight potential too.

Totally agree. I remembr catching the York-Bournemouth from Southampton a few times, saved going via London and the hell hole which is BNS.

A disastrous bit or railway to get rid of.

 

[edwin_m]

Totally agree. I remembr catching the York-Bournemouth from Southampton a few times, saved going via London and the hell hole which is BNS.

A disastrous bit or railway to get rid of.

There are several route sections that could fill this gap in the network to varying degrees in various combinations, including the Midland line from Leicester to Rugby or between Northampton and Wellingborough or Market Harborough along with Bletchley to Oxford. There wouldn't have been a case for closing them all, but from a strategic point of view at least one of them should have been kept open.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There are several route sections that could fill this gap in the network to varying degrees in various combinations, including the Midland line from Leicester to Rugby or between Northampton and Wellingborough or Market Harborough along with Bletchley to Oxford. There wouldn't have been a case for closing them all, but from a strategic point of view at least one of them should have been kept open.

Plenty of through passenger and freight trains between the East Midlands and Southampton (etc.) have/can/do run via the Birmingham area for donkeys' years.

Intermodal trains direct via the Bordesley Curve, passenger trains with reversal at New Street. (Some have done the 'circle' via Lifford and Camp Hill in the days of locomotive haulage to avoid engine change or run-round.)

 

[yorksrob]

Imagine a nice swift trip down to Oxford and the coast from Nottingham or Leicester though !

Sweeping over Catesby viaduct in a 47 hauled rake of mk 2's !

 

[S&CLER]

There are several route sections that could fill this gap in the network to varying degrees in various combinations, including the Midland line from Leicester to Rugby or between Northampton and Wellingborough or Market Harborough along with Bletchley to Oxford. There wouldn't have been a case for closing them all, but from a strategic point of view at least one of them should have been kept open.

Leicester-Banbury probably scored highest on directness, but Market Harborough-Northampton-Bletchley Oxford probably wins on population served, especially since Milton Keynes has developed.

 

[edwin_m]

Plenty of through passenger and freight trains between the East Midlands and Southampton (etc.) have/can/do run via the Birmingham area for donkeys' years.

Intermodal trains direct via the Bordesley Curve, passenger trains with reversal at New Street. (Some have done the 'circle' via Lifford and Camp Hill in the days of locomotive haulage to avoid engine change or run-round.)

The only through train currently from Nottingham to Oxford takes over 2.5hr. It can be driven quite easily in 2hr.

If continuing towards Southampton it's even worse, as having gone wildly off the direct line to the right it proceeds to go off to the left via Reading.

Leicester-Banbury probably scored highest on directness, but Market Harborough-Northampton-Bletchley Oxford probably wins on population served, especially since Milton Keynes has developed.

However, as we are seeing on other threads, there probably wouldn't be capacity for such a service between Northampton and Bletchley.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The only through train currently from Nottingham to Oxford takes over 2.5hr. It can be driven quite easily in 2hr.

If the mooted Central Trains service via Nuneaton and Leamington Spa had happened then 2hr-ish would be achievable - perhaps a little longer.

(I wonder if anyone has a scan of the GBTT in which a timetable for that actually appeared? It never ran, of course.)

 

[Kremlin Stooge]

I happily admit that I am somewhat mystified by the concept of the S&D being a strategic route, particularly the northern section as it meandered its way across the agricultural vastness of Somerset. At a very tight pinch a case could conceivably be made for the retention of the section south of Templecombe, with wholesale remodelling there to allow trains from the Bournemouth direction easy access towards Yeovil and Exeter. Traffic between Bristol/Bath and Bournemouth might have been better served by keeping Salisbury - Fordingbridge - Ringwood open!

 

[billio]

Bolton to Rochdale - providing a more direct route from Liverpool to West Yorkshire and beyond which avoids Manchester.

 

[Journeyman]

Grand Central line must be in with a shout.

I'd disagree. It was always underutilised, and if it hadn't been built, no-one would have felt a need for it. I don't honestly think it's been missed, besides depriving a few small towns of local links. It built up a legendary status with enthusiasts I don't think it deserves.

 

[Mikey C]

I'd argue that the closures which led to the greatest strategic losses are the 2 cross town routes in London and Birmingham, and that the strategic loss is demonstrated by HOW useful the 2 routes are now since they reopened.

The Thameslink services via Snow Hill tunnels and the Moor Street to Snow Hill and Jewellery Line services across Birmingham are both used by vast number of passengers

 

[yorksrob]

I'd argue that the closures which led to the greatest strategic losses are the 2 cross town routes in London and Birmingham, and that the strategic loss is demonstrated by HOW useful the 2 routes are now since they reopened.

The Thameslink services via Snow Hill tunnels and the Moor Street to Snow Hill and Jewellery Line services across Birmingham are both used by vast number of passengers

Arguably they're not really "lost" though (although Birmingham did sadly lose a showpiece station worthy of its status, from a cultural/architectural point of view).

 

[Mikey C]

Arguably they're not really "lost" though (although Birmingham did sadly lose a showpiece station worthy of its status, from a cultural/architectural point of view).

But they WERE lost though, and the question was asking about route closures which caused the greatest strategic loss...

 

[Bald Rick]

But they WERE lost though, and the question was asking about route closures which caused the greatest strategic loss...

Strategic to Birmingham yes, arguably the West Midlands, but I wouldn’t say strategic loss in the national sense.

 

[simonw]

Arguably they're not really "lost" though (although Birmingham did sadly lose a showpiece station worthy of its status, from a cultural/architectural point of view).

A station that would have needed rebuilding anyway as it was collapsing, albeit slowly.

 

[yorksrob]

A station that would have needed rebuilding anyway as it was collapsing, albeit slowly.

Or just needed to be properly maintained.

 

[simonw]

Or just needed to be properly maintained.

Do you have any evidence to back that assertion?

 

[yorksrob]

Do you have any evidence to back that assertion?

Do you have any evidence that it was collapsing whilst it was being fully maintained ?

 

[simonw]

Do you have any evidence that it was collapsing whilst it was being fully maintained ?

Do you have any evidence that it was collapsing whilst it was being fully maintained ?

Um, you asserted that it could have been saved. I await your evidence.

 

[yorksrob]

Um, you asserted that it could have been saved. I await your evidence.

You've said is that "it would have needed rebuilding anyway as it was collapsing".

I've not seen any evidence that the Great Western's structures of that era were prone to collapsing, or that the environment around Snow hill was susceptible to progressive structural failure, so where is your evidence to back up your assertion ?

 

[simonw]

You've said is that "it would have needed rebuilding anyway as it was collapsing".

I've not seen any evidence that the Great Western's structures of that era were prone to collapsing, or that the environment around Snow hill was susceptible to progressive structural failure, so where is your evidence to back up your assertion ?

Birmingham Snow Hill railway station - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Section under closure and elsewhere on the internet.

 

[yorksrob]

Birmingham Snow Hill railway station - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Section under closure and elsewhere on the internet.

It was suffering from corrosion having not been maintained for years.

As for slipping down the hill, I expect the foundations could have been secured, had the structure been maintained.

 

[simonw]

It was suffering from corrosion having not been maintained for years.

As for slipping down the hill, I expect the foundations could have been secured, had the structure been maintained.

As you are clearly a structural engineer specialising in ground conditions and foundations, I'm sure you are right.

 

[yorksrob]

As you are clearly a structural engineer specialising in ground conditions and foundations, I'm sure you are right.

If they can stop the leaning tower of Pisa falling over, I'm sure they could have fixed Snow Hill (assuming it hadn't been allowed to fall into dereliction in the first place).

 

[Ianno87]

If they can stop the leaning tower of Pisa falling over, I'm sure they could have fixed Snow Hill (assuming it hadn't been allowed to fall into dereliction in the first place).

Pisa took 10 years and took €30m, for some perspective.

 

[yorksrob]

Pisa took 10 years and took €30m, for some perspective.

Well, evidently no one bothered to get a quote for Snow Hill, so we can't know how much it would have cost.

 

[Ianno87]

Well, evidently no one bothered to get a quote for Snow Hill, so we can't know how much it would have cost.

According to Wikipedia, the whole 1995 reopening of the Jewellery Line cost £28.5 million. Though probably excludes Snow Hill's reopening in 1987.

Though I know what's probably the best way to spend £30m - and it's not saving a draughty old station.

 

[Mikey C]

Strategic to Birmingham yes, arguably the West Midlands, but I wouldn’t say strategic loss in the national sense.

I'm not sure ANY of the examples mentioned here on this thread are strategic national losses...

 

[yorksrob]

According to Wikipedia, the whole 1995 reopening of the Jewellery Line cost £28.5 million. Though probably excludes Snow Hill's reopening in 1987.

Though I know what's probably the best way to spend £30m - and it's not saving a draughty old station.

I concede that had the station been maintained, and a proper quotation of the cost of rectifying the structural problems shown it to be prohibitive (a proper costing - not a Ribblehead closure job) then it might have been necessary to replace.

But you wouldn't be dismissing Paddington, York or St Pancras as just "draughty old stations" !