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March to Spalding. All the container trains now have to go via Peterborough.
Though soon it won't be on the flat but via a diveunder at Werrington.
March to Spalding. All the container trains now have to go via Peterborough.
I'm not sure ANY of the examples mentioned here on this thread are strategic national losses...
As a West Midlands resident and semi-regular user of Snow Hill in the 'old days' I'll concede that it had a certain Edwardian charm (relatively unusual in the UK) and had nice spacious platforms. But at the end of the day the facilities were rather dated and the Wolverhampton end bays, on an exposed viaduct were most definitely "draughty" in a way that your other candidates aren't.I concede that had the station been maintained, and a proper quotation of the cost of rectifying the structural problems shown it to be prohibitive (a proper costing - not a Ribblehead closure job) then it might have been necessary to replace.
But you wouldn't be dismissing Paddington, York or St Pancras as just "draughty old stations" !
As a West Midlands resident and semi-regular user of Snow Hill in the 'old days' I'll concede that it had a certain Edwardian charm (relatively unusual in the UK) and had nice spacious platforms. But at the end of the day the facilities were rather dated and the Wolverhampton end bays, on an exposed viaduct were most definitely "draughty" in a way that your other candidates aren't.
The Booking Hall, adjacent to a fume-filled and traffic clogged Taxi Rank and drop-off area, was hardly very attractive either.
A slight case of 'form over function' from a customer perspective.
Operationally the station was very slick for its traffic levels. Being on a 'hump' meant very smooth acceleration and braking as necessary. Through roads fine for freight, stabling sidings nearby.
I was allowed to hang a home-made wreath on the coupling hook of the very last scheduled DMU departure to Wolverhampton Low Level (no hi-vi or safety certification in those days) and it survived all the way. Sadly no photograph that I've ever seem.
This is true. One wonders if it might have been cheaper to change the manned level crossings to automatic barriers and replaced the mechanical signal boxes on the other route.Though soon it won't be on the flat but via a diveunder at Werrington.
This is true. One wonders if it might have been cheaper to change the manned level crossings to automatic barriers and replaced the mechanical signal boxes on the other route.
This is true. One wonders if it might have been cheaper to change the manned level crossings to automatic barriers and replaced the mechanical signal boxes on the other route.
Haha, yes indeed. It was more of an idle musing than suggesting the wrong call was made.That would have required a particularly accurate Crystal Ball with a 40 year horizon.
Yes, if the March route had been retained and the Werrington route closed, it would be tricky for freight from the south to get onto the Spalding line.The other point about March-Spalding is that it can never be a 'complete answer'. When it closed, of course, there was no container gauge clearance anywhere along the Joint Line.
Given the significance of the Felixstowe-Nuneaton axis as a whole, March-Peterborough was always going to have be upgraded anyway. The Peterborough-Werrington-Spalding line is also necessary for freight that has come down the ECML from London. As it happened, on one of my last trips out before Covid I saw there successive freights (the 'Heck block' empties, a steel train from the Channel Tunnel to Scunthorpe and an intermodal from London Gateway to Yorkshire) that came through Peterborough and 'turned right at' Werrington.
The comprehensive re-modelling and expansion of the whole Peterborough-Werrington section over the past 20 years has turned it into a strategic 'crossroads' for freight (and significant Infrastructure traffic to/from Whitemoor) with the maximum range of routeing options.
An excellent point. The grand steps down to the platforms could also have been replaced with escalators in the modern era. Road access would always have been a bit of a challenge after Birmingham gained its Inner Ring Road.Thanks for those very enjoyable remeniscences [EDIT about Birmingham Snow Hill].
It strikes me from the photos that the fume filled taxi rank could have been easily converted into a nice, bright terrazoed concourse area.
An excellent point. The grand steps down to the platforms could also have been replaced with escalators in the modern era. Road access would always have been a bit of a challenge after Birmingham gained its Inner Ring Road.
The station was definitely suffering from structural problems, with quite large cracks appearing from subsidence. Frankly a lot of the GWR's Edwardian works have suffered from problems with earthworks on the 'cut-off' lines being common. Geotechnics clearly weren't their strongest engineering suit.
The steelwork was of the pre-FWW riveted era and, as many stories about the Titanic have revealed, that wasn't always as strong as its mass might have suggested.
My late father was on fire-watching duty on top of the Birmingham Council House during the Blitz and on the single heaviest night of bombing saw the Great Western Arcade opposite Snow Hill destroyed in a direct hit from a massive land mine. The station opposite was also affected.
Ah yes- hindsight ...I'm not convinced by Matlock - Buxton (or Chinley to be pedantic about it) - yes, it gave Derby a better link to Manchester, but did it really work that well for Nottingham or Leicester ?
I think there's a better case for the GC in terms of the GC mainline and Woodhead - no reversals needed in Nottingham, a fast, electrified trans-pennine route. Added benefit it also took in Sheffield without the need for reversals.
Hindsight always being helpful, I do wonder about the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton line - closed pre Beeching. The volume of container traffic from Southampton probably couldn't have been foreseen back then, but that traffic to head north either has to head up to London, around the congested NLL onto whichever line it needs or head up through Basingstoke and Reading. Running further west and heading north at Didcot might have been useful. Probably would never have been viable for passenger traffic, but there's something to be said for trying to separate passenger and freight.
And a thought, they were mainly closed for the M602 construction (bar the Whelley Loop), Hmmm, I wonder who was transport secretary thenI think Manchester to Wigan Line(LNWR route via Tyldesley , Tyldesley loop and the Whelley Loop was a loss. It would have meant there would be at least 10+ routes possible from Manchester to Scotland/Barrow/Windemere/ Blackpool via the WCML thus alleviating cacpacity on the Manchester-Preston line(via Bolton and Chorley), Manchester-Preston(via Bolton and Wigan NW), Manchester-Preston(via Atherton and Wigan NW) and Manchester-Preston(via Chat Moss and Wigan NW)
Tyldesley-Wigan closed under Tom Fraser (despite having promised to 'stop major closures') although I think that construction of the M602 began under Barbara Castle or Richard Marsh.I think Manchester to Wigan Line(LNWR route via Tyldesley , Tyldesley loop and the Whelley Loop was a loss. It would have meant there would be at least 10+ routes possible from Manchester to Scotland/Barrow/Windemere/ Blackpool via the WCML thus alleviating cacpacity on the Manchester-Preston line(via Bolton and Chorley), Manchester-Preston(via Bolton and Wigan NW), Manchester-Preston(via Atherton and Wigan NW) and Manchester-Preston(via Chat Moss and Wigan NW)
And a thought, they were mainly closed for the M602 construction (bar the Whelley Loop), Hmmm, I wonder who was transport secretary then
Manchester and Wigan Railway(aka Eccles-Tyldesley-Wigan line) closed under Richard Marsh(in fact it was closed by Marples for passenger services in 1961(bar the Manchester Exchange-Scotland services and closed fully in October 1969 under Richard Marsh for all trains) to allow the M602(no suprise there eh) construction to proceed.Tyldesley-Wigan closed under Tom Fraser (despite having promised to 'stop major closures') although I think that construction of the M602 began under Barbara Castle or Richard Marsh.
I disagree. Re-opening of the Perth to Ladybank line to passenger traffic in the 1970s means that there is now an hourly though train service from Edinburgh to Perth.
It did not destroy rail access to a substantial area, unlike the actions of the Stormont administration in the Six Counties, which mutilated the GNR in 1957 and then closed the Derry Road in 1965. Together with the closure of the SL&NCR and CDR, this has left 5 of the 9 counties of Ulster without any rail services whatsoever, to this day.
But the Honeybourne route only took you to Worcester on through services. Connections at Worcester have always been very limited. Connections from Honeybourne towards Oxford were also hit-and-miss.Stratford to Honeybourne (NOT all the way through to Cheltenham) seems like a stupid loss. Even in the 60s, Stratford was one on the UK's top tourist destinations, and leaving it with no southern rail access was unfortunate.
But the Honeybourne route only took you to Worcester on through services. Connections at Worcester have always been very limited. Connections from Honeybourne towards Oxford were also hit-and-miss.
I did travel south of Stratford (both on the Cheltenham and Worcester services) before closure a few times and they seemed pretty quiet.
The current Edinburgh-Perth service is more frequent and faster than it ever was when trains ran via Kinross. The only significant town that has lost out is Dunfermline, as it no longer has a direct connection with Perth/Inverness, which Kirkcaldy has gained instead. This is NOT a strategic loss, as an alternative inter-city route has been substituted.Interesting to come back to this as the OP after a month or so.
First of all, I don't agree with the couple of posts complaining that this thread was just another opportunity for people to bemoan the loss of their favourite old line. The objective was to identify routes whose closure significantly disadvantaged a very much larger group of users than those either on the route itself or at either end of it.
A lot of suggestions, but other than routes that would now be heavily used by intermodals reaching modern ports serving a very different purpose from when the lines were shut in the 1960s, or ones like Oxford-Cambridge and are already in hand, then I'm not convinced that any of them are especially strong examples of strategic loss alongside Glenfarg?
I was partly intrigued and partly strongly in agreement with the post quoted below. First the agreement: the decimation of a large part of the Northern Irish network probably does beat any other examples from elsewhere in the UK. But, back in Scotland, I don't understand why a substantial diversion via Kirkcaldy and Ladybank means that an hourly service between Edinburgh and Perth is more desirable, or possible, than if it went via Kelty and Kinross, other than for the few people who want to travel between Kirkcaldy and Perth? Inverkeithing, arguably a more significant source of traffic than Kirkcaldy, is on both routes.
Just to point out that BNS is the CRS code for Barnes which is in London, the correct CRS code for Birmingham New Street is actually BHM.Totally agree. I remembr catching the York-Bournemouth from Southampton a few times, saved going via London and the hell hole which is BNS.
A disastrous bit or railway to get rid of.
I can see the Port Road attracting more discussion if the speculation of a tunnel resurfaces from time to time.
However, any enthusiasm in that direction would need to be supported by feasible suggestions on the gauge issue; maybe just a standard gauge rail link through to a Eurotunnel style terminal / container unloading yard? But that'll be for a new thread at that time.
Are you sure over the distance involved?I shouldn’t worry. Any fixed link to Northern Ireland would almost certainly be a road.
Thanks for the explanation but I'm still missing your point, sorry, and I don't mean that in a rude way!The current Edinburgh-Perth service is more frequent and faster than it ever was when trains ran via Kinross. The only significant town that has lost out is Dunfermline, as it no longer has a direct connection with Perth/Inverness, which Kirkcaldy has gained instead. This is NOT a strategic loss, as an alternative inter-city route has been substituted.
Using the 1962 timetable, when via Glenfarg and Stirling (but not Ladybank) were open, the route via Stirling was approximately 10 minutes slower. This is a reasonable approximation of the strategic loss caused by the closure, the other 20 minutes you mention being accounted for by 10 or so stops.My interest in the route is based on direct experience in that I feel a sense of strategic loss every time I take the train from Kingussie to Edinburgh and find that it takes at least half an hour longer - via either alternative inter city route - than when I go in my car. Had Glenfarg survived and been upgraded then rail connectivity between the northern half of Scotland and the capital, not just Perth and the capital, would've been substantially better and more competitive than it is now.
I'm sure that what you say is true in terms of the 1960s timetable, but my frustration is that today I can take half an hour off my train journey time between Kingussie and Edinburgh by driving on the motorway partly built over the direct rail route south of Perth. I wasn't around to feel the immediate loss of the closure 50 years ago, but I'm able to experience what that means now.Using the 1962 timetable, when via Glenfarg and Stirling (but not Ladybank) were open, the route via Stirling was approximately 10 minutes slower. This is a reasonable approximation of the strategic loss caused by the closure, the other 20 minutes you mention being accounted for by 10 or so stops.
March to Spaldng was a short sighted decision, as it meant all the freight from Felixstowe to the north had to go through Peterborough
Thanks for the explanation but I'm still missing your point, sorry, and I don't mean that in a rude way!
I'd agree if Glenfarg still existed and its services ran at 1960s speeds and frequencies whilst we'd zip along at modern standards via Kirkcaldy, but that wouldn't be what would happen.
In any case, the Edinburgh to Perth service, hourly or otherwise, doesn't satisfy my definition of 'strategic'. My interest in the route is based on direct experience in that I feel a sense of strategic loss every time I take the train from Kingussie to Edinburgh and find that it takes at least half an hour longer - via either alternative inter city route - than when I go in my car. Had Glenfarg survived and been upgraded then rail connectivity between the northern half of Scotland and the capital, not just Perth and the capital, would've been substantially better and more competitive than it is now.
The whole of the Highlands, that's what I mean by strategic.
Just quoting from #15 as evidence I have looked back, however skimmingly ... and at risk of being a bit controversial here ...Anyone know who the Transport Secretary was at the time who authorised Okehampton to Bere Alston closure? Always good to name & shame even 50+ years on. I presume it was our old friend who owned a road construction firm: Ernest Marples who was the guilty party; or had Labour taken over by then?