Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[hexagon789]

On the 170 first class part; "A quieter carriage with 16 or 18 seats". Somebody hasn't done their homework!

Possibly because in the Ex-suburban conversions, the reservations system seems to think there are only 8 seats in the first class cabins?

And they've got the figures from that?

 

[Stathern Jc]

Not relating to the Scotrail HSTs themselves, but a link to an article in the Strathspey Hearald caught my eye:

£400k platform change at Inverness station 'cannot be justified'

Proposal to make platforms at Inverness railway station more 'flexible' has been put on hold

www.strathspey-herald.co.uk

Part of this reads:
"A new £400,000 platform scheme at Inverness station has been blocked because the benefits 'can’t be quantified' by ScotRail, it has been revealed.
The move would have improved the flexibility of train use at the terminus.
Currently Inter7City trains, which travel along the Highland main line from the Central Belt, are restricted to one platform in the city’s station as, with five passenger coaches, and a power car at each end, they are significantly longer than ScotRail’s diesel trains.
Details that the plans would not go ahead followed an Freedom of Information request related to an item in ScotRail’s October board meeting minutes where the strategy for the Highland Mainline was discussed."

Excuse the lack of distinction between the 2+4 and 2+5 HSTs which are the real subject here.

Is this a sign of a lack of enthusiasm by Transport Scotland to provide a reliable incease in capacity in trains on the Highland Main Line?
Or, is it an indication that Scotrail's HSTs will be a more "interim" measure than originally intended?
(Please let's not repeat opinions from earlier threads on the relative merits of HSTs vs potential alternatives at that time).

 

[Ex-controller]

Not relating to the Scotrail HSTs themselves, but a link to an article in the Strathspey Hearald caught my eye:

£400k platform change at Inverness station 'cannot be justified'

Proposal to make platforms at Inverness railway station more 'flexible' has been put on hold

www.strathspey-herald.co.uk

Part of this reads:
"A new £400,000 platform scheme at Inverness station has been blocked because the benefits 'can’t be quantified' by ScotRail, it has been revealed.
The move would have improved the flexibility of train use at the terminus.
Currently Inter7City trains, which travel along the Highland main line from the Central Belt, are restricted to one platform in the city’s station as, with five passenger coaches, and a power car at each end, they are significantly longer than ScotRail’s diesel trains.
Details that the plans would not go ahead followed an Freedom of Information request related to an item in ScotRail’s October board meeting minutes where the strategy for the Highland Mainline was discussed."

Is this a sign of a lack of enthusiasm by Transport Scotland to provide a reliable incease in capacity in trains on the Highland Main Line?
Or, is it an indication that Scotrail's HSTs will be a more "interim" measure than originally intended?
(Please let's not repeat opinions from earlier threads on the relative merits of HSTs vs potential alternatives at that time).

It’s a lack of enthusiasm for spending any money that Transport Scotland’s very short sighted bean counters can’t understand the need for. Really very little beyond that.

The people at Transport Scotland have no understanding of the operational railway. Their role should be pared back. I understand the need for minimum service requirements and the monitoring of these etc, but this tight holding of purse strings to the detriment of a reliable rail service needs to end.

They’ll still complain when HSTs can’t operate to Inverness in the numbers they are expected to because the station can’t cope with them.

They were warned prior to the HST introduction that the railway in Scotland needed significant alterations to be able to cope with their stabling and maintenance requirements. It fell on deaf ears and continues to do so.

 

[DanNCL]

Why is a 2+5 HST restricted to just one platform at Inverness? 9 car 800s and the Caledonian Sleeper aren’t subject to such a restriction and both sets are longer than a 2+5 HST.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Platforms 1 & 2 are the longer ones.
But the Sleeper stock is held in Platform 1 for most of the day which I think is the reason that capacity for the 2+5 units is quoted as being just one platform. Presumably it could be used in the early morning / later evening but that isn't a significant benefit.

 

[BRX]

Bit of a wasteful use of a platform, to have the sleeper sitting in it all day.

Noticed recently that platform 2 is long enough that they can stack two HSTs in there.

 

[MattRat]

Bit of a wasteful use of a platform, to have the sleeper sitting in it all day.

Noticed recently that platform 2 is long enough that they can stack two HSTs in there.

Or you could just build a siding to dump the sleeper into.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Bit of a wasteful use of a platform, to have the sleeper sitting in it all day.

Noticed recently that platform 2 is long enough that they can stack two HSTs in there.

Couldn't agree more. Sleeper stock always went to the carriage sheds for servicing, cleaning etc back when the railway was a railway. Frankly I am amazed that the national transport company is restricted by a sleeper train that stands around all day.

Wonder how much CS / GBRf pay Network Rail for the privilege

Do the Scotrail HSTs get plugged in to the shore lines ?

 

[D6130]

Couldn't agree more. Sleeper stock always went to the carriage sheds for servicing, cleaning etc back when the railway was a railway. Frankly I am amazed that the national transport company is restricted by a sleeper train that stands around all day.

I was under the impression that the current Caledonian Sleeper stock is also shunted to the depot for servicing for a few hours during the middle of the day. This also allows the loco(s) to be released for run-round.

 

[Stathern Jc]

I was under the impression that the current Caledonian Sleeper stock is also shunted to the depot for servicing for a few hours during the middle of the day. This also allows the loco(s) to be released for run-round.

Happy to correct my earlier post.
RTT shows today 5S25 as due to leave Patform 2 at 0908, and returning at 1130 so the Sleeper stock is clear of the station until later in the morning than I'd realised.
Interesting to see that it shows as returning to Platform 2 today, which is where it departed from last night. Not sure whether this is an occasional arrangement or now regular, but it means a longer walk for passengers where a 2+5 HST is used as Platform 1 starts at the end of the station canopy rather than beneath it.

 

[BRX]

Does Inverness not have one remaining "Motorail Siding" parallel to platform 1? I thought there was still the option to put the sleeper stock in there or did that get rationalised away in some kind of short-sighted exercise?

[edit-]

Actually my own photo which I took just last week confirms nothing still runs down as far as the station shed, but is there still something behind and to the left, from this viewpoint?

NB the sleeper departed from P2 that day as well, although I think I've seen it in P1 too fairly recently.

 

[hexagon789]

Does Inverness not have one remaining "Motorail Siding" parallel to platform 1? I thought there was still the option to put the sleeper stock in there or did that get rationalised away in some kind of short-sighted exercise?

Still there and in the Sectional Appendix it is labelled 'Mototrail Siding - Platform 0, stabling.'

 

[Bill57p9]

The sleeper stables in the Motorail siding on Saturday nights. I am reasonably confident that it did every day until fairly recently...

 

[BRX]

Tuesday 29th - 12/15

HA01 (43182/43131) - 1H35, 1T84, 1H21, 1B40

HA05* (43152/43035) - 1A75, 1T54, 1A57

HA06* (43177/43147) - 1T18, 1A39, 1T42, 1A51, 1B96

HA09 (43149/43136) - 1A01, 1B78, 1A87, 1T62

HA15 (43012/43026) - 1T80, 1H11, 1T88, 1A55

HA16 (43133/43163) - 1B68, 1A79, 1B82, 1A82, 1T64

HA17 (43151/43181) - 1T14, 1A37, 1T38, 1A49, 1H77

HA18 (43142/43130) - 1A77, 1B80, 1H29

HA19 (43037/43125) - 1A71, 1T22, 1A41, 1T46, 1A53

HA20 (43150/43137) - 1A29, 1T26, 1A43, 1B88, 1A93

HA25 (43015/43176) - 1H09, 1B30, 1A91, 1B98

HA26 (43126/43139) - 1A33, 1H61, 1A26, 5T98


*5-car sets

Have you been keeping track of availability through Jan/Feb so far @hexagon789 ?

Any improvement visible?

 

[hexagon789]

Have you been keeping track of availability through Jan/Feb so far @hexagon789 ?

Any improvement visible?

Yes, I would say so.

We've had a steady 14-15 sets out each day of late; there were 14 out today.

I can put up my figures for the last 4 weeks if you'd be interested?

 

[John Bishop]

Does Inverness not have one remaining "Motorail Siding" parallel to platform 1? I thought there was still the option to put the sleeper stock in there or did that get rationalised away in some kind of short-sighted exercise?

[edit-]

Actually my own photo which I took just last week confirms nothing still runs down as far as the station shed, but is there still something behind and to the left, from this viewpoint?

NB the sleeper departed from P2 that day as well, although I think I've seen it in P1 too fairly recently.

View attachment 128052

Platform 1 shore supply has been broken for a few weeks now hence sleeper in P2.

The sleeper stables in the Motorail siding on Saturday nights. I am reasonably confident that it did every day until fairly recently...

Nope, always in P1 through the day after servicing/ fuel etc.

Do the Scotrail HSTs get plugged in to the shore lines ?

No. The shore supplies out the back of the depot are still not commissioned despite being installed several years ago. The UP end power car runs 24/7 keeping the train warm. It beggars belief really.

 

[BRX]

Yes, I would say so.

We've had a steady 14-15 sets out each day of late; slightly marred by only 13 today.

I can put up my figures for the last 4 weeks if you'd be interested?

That's good to hear.

No need to put up all the figures, was just wondering how things were going in general.

]
No. The shore supplies out the back of the depot are still not commissioned despite being installed several years ago. The UP end power car runs 24/7 keeping the train warm. It beggars belief really.

Doesn't fit entirely neatly with Scotrail's environmental policy ... Someone ought to be giving them some hassle about this.

 

[Railperf]

Any news on how soon the power cars will have the upgraded WSP fitted?

 

[kkong]

Any news on how soon the power cars will have the upgraded WSP fitted?

The ScotRail board meeting held on 29 December contained the following update:

ScotRail Board Meeting - 29 December 2022
b. 22/45, WSP/DVRS: the Board requested:
b.1 that a progress update to be provided at each meeting including details of potential blockers which the Board could help to expedite.
b.2 on the double variable rate sanders (DVRS) fitment, that DML confirm which operator fleets are currently being fitted and ascertain any lessons learned ahead of SRT’s fitting.

 

[Northhighland]

It’s a lack of enthusiasm for spending any money that Transport Scotland’s very short sighted bean counters can’t understand the need for. Really very little beyond that.

The people at Transport Scotland have no understanding of the operational railway. Their role should be pared back. I understand the need for minimum service requirements and the monitoring of these etc, but this tight holding of purse strings to the detriment of a reliable rail service needs to end.

They’ll still complain when HSTs can’t operate to Inverness in the numbers they are expected to because the station can’t cope with them.

They were warned prior to the HST introduction that the railway in Scotland needed significant alterations to be able to cope with their stabling and maintenance requirements. It fell on deaf ears and continues to do so.

Since Covid there has been an obvious lack of enthusiasm for improving the rail connections to the Highlands.

The station at Dalcross is a good example as an aid to airport commuting it is so far away from airport why would you bother?

The HST is an excellent passenger experience. To the point when the 170’s are experienced now they are a very inferior passenger experience.

Needs a bit of enthusiasm from ScotRail to implement what they promised properly.

 

[Ex-controller]

Since Covid there has been an obvious lack of enthusiasm for improving the rail connections to the Highlands.

The station at Dalcross is a good example as an aid to airport commuting it is so far away from airport why would you bother?

The HST is an excellent passenger experience. To the point when the 170’s are experienced now they are a very inferior passenger experience.

Needs a bit of enthusiasm from ScotRail to implement what they promised properly.

HSTs are 40+ years old. They are for the bin and need replaced. Everyone at ScotRail knows it and they’re only being persisted with because someone at Transport Scotland who clearly has no experience of an operational railway insists on it.

First Groups proposal pre-2015 of refurbished class 170s running in 6 car formation, or remarshalling into 4 car and 2 car sets, would have been a far more realistic option.

You can’t just magic HSTs into working out well. They are a disaster and the longer this shambles goes on the worse (and more eye wateringly expensive) this debacle will get. The passenger experience you speak of will be so rare as to make it a moot point.

Don’t know about this lack of enthusiasm you speak of - there are more frequent services in the north of the country than there ever was. I’d suggest it is the central belt, and particularly the Glasgow area that is losing out.

 

[MattRat]

The HST is an excellent passenger experience. To the point when the 170’s are experienced now they are a very inferior passenger experience.

Needs a bit of enthusiasm from ScotRail to implement what they promised properly.

Well the only way I can see them making HSTs work is by snapping up the GWR sets when they become available, so you always have enough spare sets despite the low availability, or even have a couple as pure spares donors. The costs would probably be substantial, but you'd hopefully have a guarantee a HST will turn up.

 

[43096]

HSTs are 40+ years old. They are for the bin and need replaced. Everyone at ScotRail knows it and they’re only being persisted with because someone at Transport Scotland who clearly has no experience of an operational railway insists on it.

First Groups proposal pre-2015 of refurbished class 170s running in 6 car formation, or remarshalling into 4 car and 2 car sets, would have been a far more realistic option.

You can’t just magic HSTs into working out well. They are a disaster and the longer this shambles goes on the worse (and more eye wateringly expensive) this debacle will get. The passenger experience you speak of will be so rare as to make it a moot point.

Don’t know about this lack of enthusiasm you speak of - there are more frequent services in the north of the country than there ever was. I’d suggest it is the central belt, and particularly the Glasgow area that is losing out.

I rather get the impression that much of the problem with the ScotRail HST sets comes from the staff attitude towards them as much as anything else.

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely the biggest thing of all that the HSTs have proved is the length of time between pressing the go button and even close the desired number are in service.

Assuming people don’t think the backbone of all Scotland’s long distance rail will be provided by trains heading into their sixth decade by 2030, surely the conversations about the generation to follow needs to be happening right now.

 

[John Bishop]

HSTs are 40+ years old. They are for the bin and need replaced. Everyone at ScotRail knows it and they’re only being persisted with because someone at Transport Scotland who clearly has no experience of an operational railway insists on it.

First Groups proposal pre-2015 of refurbished class 170s running in 6 car formation, or remarshalling into 4 car and 2 car sets, would have been a far more realistic option.

You can’t just magic HSTs into working out well. They are a disaster and the longer this shambles goes on the worse (and more eye wateringly expensive) this debacle will get. The passenger experience you speak of will be so rare as to make it a moot point.

Don’t know about this lack of enthusiasm you speak of - there are more frequent services in the north of the country than there ever was. I’d suggest it is the central belt, and particularly the Glasgow area that is losing out.

Yep, well said. The sooner they go the better. They’re just not reliable enough to be in service. They’ve had their day but have no place on a modern railway.

Well the only way I can see them making HSTs work is by snapping up the GWR sets when they become available, so you always have enough spare sets despite the low availability, or even have a couple as pure spares donors. The costs would probably be substantial, but you'd hopefully have a guarantee a HST will turn up.

Not going to happen I’m afraid. There’s loads of spare sets lying around now and still can’t guarantee a full or reliable service.

Surely the biggest thing of all that the HSTs have proved is the length of time between pressing the go button and even close the desired number are in service.

Assuming people don’t think the backbone of all Scotland’s long distance rail will be provided by trains heading into their sixth decade by 2030, surely the conversations about the generation to follow needs to be happening right now.

Indeed, the silence is deafening from the Scottish Government!

 

[MattRat]

Assuming people don’t think the backbone of all Scotland’s long distance rail will be provided by trains heading into their sixth decade by 2030, surely the conversations about the generation to follow needs to be happening right now.

Also they are supposed to be getting rid of pure diesels by is it 2035? Or it might even be 2030. Can't exactly fill that promise with HSTs still running around.

 

[WAB]

First Groups proposal pre-2015 of refurbished class 170s running in 6 car formation, or remarshalling into 4 car and 2 car sets, would have been a far more realistic option.

You can’t just magic HSTs into working out well. They are a disaster and the longer this shambles goes on the worse (and more eye wateringly expensive) this debacle will get. The passenger experience you speak of will be so rare as to make it a moot point.

Surely the biggest thing of all that the HSTs have proved is the length of time between pressing the go button and even close the desired number are in service.

Assuming people don’t think the backbone of all Scotland’s long distance rail will be provided by trains heading into their sixth decade by 2030, surely the conversations about the generation to follow needs to be happening right now.

170s are going to be in great demand in the next decade as the Sprinters wear out, and we continue to under-order DMUs. New diesel units will embarrass ScotGov given their green policies, and electrification will not be sufficient by the early 2030s to justify bimodes.

For the passenger ambience, it would be sensible to refurb and reconfigure the Class 222s as soon as possible and be done with the HSTs for good. Much reduced 1st class seating, more luggage space, and 18x5car, 8x No-one is chasing the 222s (unless they are offered for such a cheap price to XC that they out-do the 20 spare 221s), and the number of units lines up well.

A more realistic prediction is no-one taking the Meridians and Voyagers and they get cut up, the HSTs will be worked into the ground and their eventual loss will be covered by a rag-tag combination of the existing fleet, the odd unit scrounged off other TOCs, perhaps the TPE Mk5 sets with bimodal traction. Long term, electrification might reach Aberdeen enabling EMU operation and the cascade of remaining diesels to the Inverness and Aberdeen-Inverness lines. None of which is going to create an attractive and quality service.

 

[lachlan]

170s are going to be in great demand in the next decade as the Sprinters wear out, and we continue to under-order DMUs. New diesel units will embarrass ScotGov given their green policies, and electrification will not be sufficient by the early 2030s to justify bimodes.

For the passenger ambience, it would be sensible to refurb and reconfigure the Class 222s as soon as possible and be done with the HSTs for good. Much reduced 1st class seating, more luggage space, and 18x5car, 8x No-one is chasing the 222s (unless they are offered for such a cheap price to XC that they out-do the 20 spare 221s), and the number of units lines up well.

A more realistic prediction is no-one taking the Meridians and Voyagers and they get cut up, the HSTs will be worked into the ground and their eventual loss will be covered by a rag-tag combination of the existing fleet, the odd unit scrounged off other TOCs, perhaps the TPE Mk5 sets with bimodal traction. Long term, electrification might reach Aberdeen enabling EMU operation and the cascade of remaining diesels to the Inverness and Aberdeen-Inverness lines. None of which is going to create an attractive and quality service.

The plan is for almost everything to be electrified long term and so bimodes can be justified as more and more track is electrified. In fact I'm pretty sure the latest documents on electrification suggested bimodes.

Why should Scotland make do with more second hand trains?

 

[jagardner1984]

I never had a problem with the second hand thing. It seemed optimistic at best that 35 year old trains retired from another route partially for their age would be able to fulfil another full life in Scotland before they meet the cutting torch. With reliability being what it is - unless multiple spares are littered along the routes it is difficult to see how they can stop having a negative impact on the service.

Bimode will allow the political fudge on new Diesel, but can’t imagine too many excess Bimode will be available at that time, so new build may be required anyway. Unless someone fancies popping a Pantograph on a Meridian ?

Suspect we will see some unusual traction in unusual places as the Sprinter age comes to an end - though wonder if the no new build Diesel language gives them enough of a way out to retrofit Diesel to an old EMU in some way as I can’t imagine the Kyle line and the Far North are particularly high on anyone’s electrification list, and long distance battery doesn’t seem to be a mass produced reality any time soon.

 

[XAM2175]

Also they are supposed to be getting rid of pure diesels by is it 2035? Or it might even be 2030. Can't exactly fill that promise with HSTs still running around.

2035 (verses 2040 for anything in the DfT's remit).

Assuming people don’t think the backbone of all Scotland’s long distance rail will be provided by trains heading into their sixth decade by 2030, surely the conversations about the generation to follow needs to be happening right now.

The plan is for almost everything to be electrified long term and so bimodes can be justified as more and more track is electrified. In fact I'm pretty sure the latest documents on electrification suggested bimodes.

ScotRail's service delivery director gave an interview with Richard Clinnick last December that appeared in February's edition of Rail Express. If we trust it as being a vaguely credible indication of general intent, than ScotRail's broad-strokes fleet strategy for the next 12 years is to keep both the 170s and HSTs into the 2030s, with the 170s "probably" being the last pure-diesel fleet to go.

The first replacement order that SR is expecting to make is that for the Strathclyde suburban network - a mix of pure-electrics (to replace 318s and 320s, and maybe 334s) and battery-electric units to replace 156s on Barrhead and East Kilbride. Depending on exact timing, that BEMU order might also cover some of the other electrifications, which would allow 158s to take over the West Highland Line and most other services that currently use 156s.

Perhaps unsurprisingly little is said about the HSTs long-term future, other than that they're currently putting the power cars through G-exams at Haymarket (involving a "major rebuild and component replacement"), and that a steering group between SR, Angel Trains, ASLEF, and the RMT has been convened to work through the post-Carmont safety concerns (talks are reported as being "constructive"). There is also an investigation of some sorts underway as to making more room at Inverness for 2+5 sets, which can currently only use two platforms there.

(probably worth nothing at this point that this is the traction and rolling-stock subforum, so anything further on this topic might be better in a new speculative thread.)