Sensible proposals for restarting the electrification programme

[ABB125]

But will they be rail enhancements, rather than more roads.

Both. Road improvements are just as important as rail, despite what some people think.

 

[yorksrob]

Both. Road improvements are just as important as rail, despite what some people think.

I'm just thinking back to George Osborne's reinvigoration of the north, which turned out to be a long list of road enhancements.

 

[ABB125]

I'm just thinking back to George Osborne's reinvigoration of the north, which turned out to be a long list of road enhancements.

I don't recall that, but it seems like a missed opportunity; any future announcement (this week?) should hopefully include road and rail.
Anyway, on the topic of electrification:

• Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield-Leeds+Doncaster to enable a huge increase in electrified miles on CrossCountry (combined with a new bi-mode fleet of course!)
• Snow Hill lines all the way to Worcester (and on to Hereford, which, combined with the first point will permit full electric operation of most services heading south from BHM via BMV), and extended all the way to Marylebone. This will release a large number of DMUs and significantly reduce pollution in Birmingham and London.
• Felixstowe branch, giving the option of electric freight haulage all the way, as well as for the hourly passenger service. At a later date, Ipswich-Peterborough, then on to Leicester and Birmingham.
• Any other freight terminals where trains run all the way under wires to get there.

 

[gingertom]

what about the ECML? For reliability there's a rather urgent need to replace all the headspans with portals. This would make it good for the 140mph capabilities of the 80x fleet, once they sort out the in cab signalling.

 

[WAO]

Adding electrified mileage can be straightforward if infrastructure, track and signalling need little change. Unfortunately this is rarely true. The Midland wires could be extended northward from Glendon Junction to Wigston; but from there the Leicester Capacity Scheme is needed. Further North, grid supply points are needed at Kegworth and Chesterfield. If Sheffield is approached quite a lot of work will be needed from Dore into the City, also involving politically sensitive northern services.

On the GWR there is still work needed at Bristol, although the sharply graded Box and Middle Hill tunnels have been cleared. This short stretch towards Bath (Chippenham permitting) is probably top of the list as Bi-modes work better (and more cheaply) pan up, especially climbing or regenerating. Oxford is joint equal with most of the foundations in, the Radley ATS built and Oxford station sorted trackwise. As is well pointed out by davethe guard, both EMU’s and Bi-modes benefit. The wires however should be used by more than an hourly service to be justified.

The “no brainer” Leeds – York route is complicated by the long standing need for four tracks to Micklefield (the bridges were built wide enough but not the track bed) and may be partly paralleled by the end of HS3 at Church Fenton if built.

Politically,there will need to be a lot more regional schemes in an accelerated GRIP process.

My crayons must stay in the box for the moment.

WAO

 

[Bald Rick]

what about the ECML? For reliability there's a rather urgent need to replace all the headspans with portals. This would make it good for the 140mph capabilities of the 80x fleet, once they sort out the in cab signalling.

Would it? What about the track? And all the level crossings? And the under bridges? And the staff safety arrangements? And th power supply? And countless other things not fit for more than 125mph?

Re reliability, how many headspans were damaged on the ECML yesterday, for example?

How much time would be saved between, say, London and Edinburgh by converting all existing 125mph headspan sections to 140mph running? I make it 4 minutes.

 

[gingertom]

Would it? What about the track? And all the level crossings? And the under bridges? And the staff safety arrangements? And th power supply? And countless other things not fit for more than 125mph?

Re reliability, how many headspans were damaged on the ECML yesterday, for example?

How much time would be saved between, say, London and Edinburgh by converting all existing 125mph headspan sections to 140mph running? I make it 4 minutes.

why would the DfT be spending huge sums on the 80x fleet to be 140mph capable if there wasn't the aspiration to use that capability?

 

[Mag_seven]

Scotland will do its own thing.

I don't see why we should just dismiss discussion about electrification in Scotland just like that

In terms of further electrification in Scotland I would like to see the following lines wired to eliminate significant pockets of diesel working

1. Eastfield to Anniesland/Westerton via Maryhill
2. Glasgow Central to East Kilbride and Kilmarnock
3. Kilmarnock to Barassie

 

[158756]

why would the DfT be spending huge sums on the 80x fleet to be 140mph capable if there wasn't the aspiration to use that capability?

New build electric intercity trains have been 140mph capable for 30 years now, some are now being retired and still no line bar HS1 allows such speeds.

 

[Kite159]

I don't see why we should just dismiss discussion about electrification in Scotland just like that

In terms of further electrification in Scotland I would like to see the following lines wired to eliminate significant pockets of diesel working

1. Eastfield to Anniesland/Westerton via Maryhill
2. Glasgow Central to East Kilbride and Barrhead
3. Kilmarnock to Barassie

What would the reason for Kilmarnock to Barassie without wiring Barrhead - Kilmarnock? Considering that most services from Kilmarnock continue beyond Ayr?

 

[HSTEd]

why would the DfT be spending huge sums on the 80x fleet to be 140mph capable if there wasn't the aspiration to use that capability?

We've had 140mph capable domestic trains since the BR-era.
How much 140mph running has been done on the classic system?

 

[Mag_seven]

What would the reason for Kilmarnock to Barassie without wiring Barrhead - Kilmarnock? Considering that most services from Kilmarnock continue beyond Ayr?

Sorry I meant Kilmarnock not Barrhead - I've corrected it.

Under this scenario the services to Girvan / Stranraer would be a DMU service to from Ayr.

 

[class26]

We've had 140mph capable domestic trains since the BR-era.
How much 140mph running has been done on the classic system?

BR spent money on the 91`s, even geared for 140 mph but they travelled at that speed with paying pax

 

[Bald Rick]

why would the DfT be spending huge sums on the 80x fleet to be 140mph capable if there wasn't the aspiration to use that capability?

What’s the difference in cost of the trains between 125 and 140mph?

 

[bluenoxid]

I think restarting small schemes is the best starter to get things done and enable the engineering teams to cut their teeth. How many of the lines that have been paused are actually ready (infrastructure not lined up for massive amounts of rework) and the lines can afford further disruption?

I think electrifying Windermere has many benefits. Another line that I would raise is Morecambe. The complicated bit at Lancaster has been done. It would release at least 1 DMU and be a strong example for the government to show investment in the north without being a massive commitment. The line can probably take the disruption of an electrification programme so if it goes wrong, it isn’t going to take up headlines.

 

[HSTEd]

What’s the difference in cost of the trains between 125 and 140mph?

Arguably there is essentially no cost impact at all until 250km/h when trains start having to comply with European TSIs....

And I dont know what is happening to that requirement.

 

[Bald Rick]

Arguably there is essentially no cost impact at all until 250km/h when trains start having to comply with European TSIs....

And I dont know what is happening to that requirement.

Is the right answer!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Without hesitation the biggest no-Brainer for me is Oxenholme to Windermere. Some work already done. High speed not needed so no robust gantries so looks pretty in a National Park. For 10 miles of sparks you eliminate a huge amount of diesel under the wires.

Would it eliminate that much diesel-under-the wires? I assume you're thinking of the Manchester-Windermere trains, and certainly each train does a lot of diesel-under-the-wires, but you're talking only about 4 trains a day. I agree with you on the other points though - Windermere would be easy to do.

I also wonder about Lancaster-Morecambe. Potentially cheap - especially if you did an 'economy' version and only electrified the single track that doesn't continue to Heysham. Like Windermere it's in the North. And unlike Windermere, *every* train between Lancaster and Morecambe currently spends about half its journey running under the wires from Lancaster to where the branch leaves the WCM. I would imagine the faster acceleration from having electric trains to Morecambe would help pathing on the WCML too. And maybe it would allow some timetable improvements on a branch that sees a lot of trains per day but on a hopelessly non-clockface timetable. And, on a political level, it's (a) in the North, and (b) helping a fairly deprived town.

Edit: Oh I see @bluenoxid has beaten me to suggest Morecambe

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Out of interest, how much of an issue is it if a line to be electrified doesn't connect to any existing wires? Is it insignificant, or is it a potential deal-breaker?

Asking because it occurs to me that Exeter-Exmouth must have quite big benefits: It could give good journey time savings on a branch that sees frequent commuter services that have very short distances between stops. And it's in a part of the country that has had very little rail infrastructure investment (not counting Dawlish because that is repairing existing infrastructure, not something that can allow better services)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is there a suitable place for a grid feeder in the area of Exeter to Exmouth? I assume so. It would of course be used later one would hope for Exeter to Taunton etc.

 

[The Ham]

Out of interest, how much of an issue is it if a line to be electrified doesn't connect to any existing wires? Is it insignificant, or is it a potential deal-breaker?

Asking because it occurs to me that Exeter-Exmouth must have quite big benefits: It could give good journey time savings on a branch that sees frequent commuter services that have very short distances between stops. And it's in a part of the country that has had very little rail infrastructure investment (not counting Dawlish because that is repairing existing infrastructure, not something that can allow better services)

It would also give any bimodal trains running through Exeter a break from using diesel, which would be beneficial for air quality, as well as allowing electrification to spread outwards from Exeter towards other areas (towards Plymouth, Taunton and Yeovil) as well towards Exeter from where the wires already exist.

The only fly in the ointment is that aren't the Exmouth services paired with services so that the trains run through Exeter? Which would make the scheme a larger project.

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of interest, how much of an issue is it if a line to be electrified doesn't connect to any existing wires? Is it insignificant, or is it a potential deal-breaker?

Asking because it occurs to me that Exeter-Exmouth must have quite big benefits: It could give good journey time savings on a branch that sees frequent commuter services that have very short distances between stops. And it's in a part of the country that has had very little rail infrastructure investment (not counting Dawlish because that is repairing existing infrastructure, not something that can allow better services)

Only an issue re providing power supply. More accurately two power supplies to provide redundancy. Short ‘islands’ of electrification some distance from other electrification would tend to be expensive. Add in the costs of maintaining a very small fleet.

 

[Bantamzen]

As far as the north of England goes, these for me are the priorities:

• Manchester - Leeds - York / Hull. A no-brainer if ever there was one, and whilst sections are technically proposed I would say that Stalybridge to Huddersfield, and an extension towards Hull from Selby / Hambleton would least go some way towards the promise of Northern Power House. Whilst a new high(er) speed line would be preferable, as of now there is not even a proposed alignment, let alone any kind of costing, meaning that this would be very unlikely to happen anytime before the 2040s. The North TP route cannot wait until then.
• Midland Main Line to Sheffield. Another relatively no-brainer option, especially if combined with spurs onwards to Doncaster & Wakefield / Leeds. The original plan I believe was cut back to cut costs, so reinstating this full project would add considerable weight to the government's commitment for genuine improvement in the region.
• CLC Liverpool - Manchester. This would be another obvious, and hopefully not too challenging additional to the wired network, and help with timings through the Castlefield corridor.
• Rochdale / Calder Valley. Perhaps as a whole this is a much longer aspiration, and certainly shouldn't be in front of the above proposals. However in the short term wiring to Rochdale would provision for cross-Manchester EMUs to again help ease the Castlefield corridor issues. Longer term this would also provision for Calder Valley / Bradford EMU services headed east of Leeds towards York & Hull as proposed above.
• Hope Valley. Another longer term aspiration, but if the MML proposals came into being, it would provision for EMU traffic along much of the South TPE & Northern services.

There are other smaller lines proposed by others in the area, but I feel to add the most value to the North of England's requirements, these would be the best options in terms of capacity and gain.

 

[gingertom]

Is there a suitable place for a grid feeder in the area of Exeter to Exmouth? I assume so. It would of course be used later one would hope for Exeter to Taunton etc.

quick look a the OS map reveals there's no fewer than 3 power lines crossing the railway just south of the M5, between Newcourt and Topsham stations. Surely one of these would prove suitable? Same ones cross the railway again further north. There's also a grid switching centre nearby- handy.

 

[Purple Orange]

As far as the north of England goes, these for me are the priorities:

• Manchester - Leeds - York / Hull. A no-brainer if ever there was one, and whilst sections are technically proposed I would say that Stalybridge to Huddersfield, and an extension towards Hull from Selby / Hambleton would least go some way towards the promise of Northern Power House. Whilst a new high(er) speed line would be preferable, as of now there is not even a proposed alignment, let alone any kind of costing, meaning that this would be very unlikely to happen anytime before the 2040s. The North TP route cannot wait until then.
• Midland Main Line to Sheffield. Another relatively no-brainer option, especially if combined with spurs onwards to Doncaster & Wakefield / Leeds. The original plan I believe was cut back to cut costs, so reinstating this full project would add considerable weight to the government's commitment for genuine improvement in the region.
• CLC Liverpool - Manchester. This would be another obvious, and hopefully not too challenging additional to the wired network, and help with timings through the Castlefield corridor.
• Rochdale / Calder Valley. Perhaps as a whole this is a much longer aspiration, and certainly shouldn't be in front of the above proposals. However in the short term wiring to Rochdale would provision for cross-Manchester EMUs to again help ease the Castlefield corridor issues. Longer term this would also provision for Calder Valley / Bradford EMU services headed east of Leeds towards York & Hull as proposed above.
• Hope Valley. Another longer term aspiration, but if the MML proposals came into being, it would provision for EMU traffic along much of the South TPE & Northern services.

There are other smaller lines proposed by others in the area, but I feel to add the most value to the North of England's requirements, these would be the best options in terms of capacity and gain.

I too would like to see north TP electrification prioritised and I agree with the point about it contributing towards delivering NPR. If the line was electrified and the transpennine route upgrade works were all delivered, what sort of journey time improvements could we expect? Would those improvements deliver a 30 min journey time between Manchester and Piccadilly?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

quick look a the OS map reveals there's no fewer than 3 power lines crossing the railway just south of the M5, between Newcourt and Topsham stations. Surely one of these would prove suitable? Same ones cross the railway again further north. There's also a grid switching centre nearby- handy.

That is good. What I like about this , I know civils are the most expensive bit of electrification, but in terms of kit, Grid feeders are very expensive. If this got done, it would make business case/BCR better for further rolling program North or south from here.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would it eliminate that much diesel-under-the wires? I assume you're thinking of the Manchester-Windermere trains, and certainly each train does a lot of diesel-under-the-wires, but you're talking only about 4 trains a day. I agree with you on the other points though - Windermere would be easy to do.

Bear in mind that the same units that work between Windermere and Manchester Airport also work the hourly Oxenholme shuttle between times. Altogether there are 34 workings per day on the branch, 24 to/from Oxenholme, 8 to/from Manchester Airport and 2 from/to Lancaster/Preston (first and last services of the day). All those would become EMU-worked.

A complication is that the Windermere services currently interwork with the Barrow services at Manchester Airport, with a quick turnaround. In order to disentangle the diagrams, I think the Windermere service frequency would have to change from the current 1tp3h to 1tp2h (the round trip time is 5 hours, less an hour's overlap between Oxenholme and Windermere). This would mean that the frequency of direct Airport - Barrow services would also have to change to an even 1tp2h, so further reducing DMUs under the wires between Lancaster and the Airport.

 

[Bantamzen]

I too would like to see north TP electrification prioritised and I agree with the point about it contributing towards delivering NPR. If the line was electrified and the transpennine route upgrade works were all delivered, what sort of journey time improvements could we expect? Would those improvements deliver a 30 min journey time between Manchester and Piccadilly?

Almost certainly not, as there would still be the current mix of fast, semi-fast and stoppers across the route. However it would get past the idea mooted by Grayling that Standedge was "too difficult" to wire, and might encourage DfT / NR to look at re-using the two single bores in future, giving some potential for overtaking & improving timings a bit more. And of course full wiring would reduce diesel emissions across the core, and potentially mean that any bi-modes still running through it would need to carry less fuel.

Most of all though, it would show a total commitment to improving the infrastructure across the North, instead of Grayling's rather pathetic "too difficult" mantra.

 

[yorksrob]

As far as the north of England goes, these for me are the priorities:

• Manchester - Leeds - York / Hull. A no-brainer if ever there was one, and whilst sections are technically proposed I would say that Stalybridge to Huddersfield, and an extension towards Hull from Selby / Hambleton would least go some way towards the promise of Northern Power House. Whilst a new high(er) speed line would be preferable, as of now there is not even a proposed alignment, let alone any kind of costing, meaning that this would be very unlikely to happen anytime before the 2040s. The North TP route cannot wait until then.
• Midland Main Line to Sheffield. Another relatively no-brainer option, especially if combined with spurs onwards to Doncaster & Wakefield / Leeds. The original plan I believe was cut back to cut costs, so reinstating this full project would add considerable weight to the government's commitment for genuine improvement in the region.
• CLC Liverpool - Manchester. This would be another obvious, and hopefully not too challenging additional to the wired network, and help with timings through the Castlefield corridor.
• Rochdale / Calder Valley. Perhaps as a whole this is a much longer aspiration, and certainly shouldn't be in front of the above proposals. However in the short term wiring to Rochdale would provision for cross-Manchester EMUs to again help ease the Castlefield corridor issues. Longer term this would also provision for Calder Valley / Bradford EMU services headed east of Leeds towards York & Hull as proposed above.
• Hope Valley. Another longer term aspiration, but if the MML proposals came into being, it would provision for EMU traffic along much of the South TPE & Northern services.

There are other smaller lines proposed by others in the area, but I feel to add the most value to the North of England's requirements, these would be the best options in terms of capacity and gain.

A very sensible list.

I would also add the Atherton line, if the bridge at Wigan Wallgate could be sorted out.

 

[Purple Orange]

Almost certainly not, as there would still be the current mix of fast, semi-fast and stoppers across the route. However it would get past the idea mooted by Grayling that Standedge was "too difficult" to wire, and might encourage DfT / NR to look at re-using the two single bores in future, giving some potential for overtaking & improving timings a bit more. And of course full wiring would reduce diesel emissions across the core, and potentially mean that any bi-modes still running through it would need to carry less fuel.

Most of all though, it would show a total commitment to improving the infrastructure across the North, instead of Grayling's rather pathetic "too difficult" mantra.

I suppose that begs the question as to what would the journey time be? Given the frequencies are already there (4 fast tph) plus the rest, would 35-40 mins be achievable and would that be considered ‘good enough’?