Sensible proposals for restarting the electrification programme

[Bantamzen]

A very sensible list.

I would also add the Atherton line, if the bridge at Wigan Wallgate could be sorted out.

Thank you, and I'd agree that the Atherton line would be a good addition.

 

[Bantamzen]

I suppose that begs the question as to what would the journey time be? Given the frequencies are already there (4 fast tph) plus the rest, would 35-40 mins be achievable and would that be considered ‘good enough’?

Honestly, not much quicker given the mixture of services, although the planned four tracking between Huddersfield & Ravensthorpe alongside wiring will help bring times down. However the big win would be in dwell times, longer, quicker off their feet units (which generally speaking EMUs are better at) means less chance of following services catching up and being slowed down.

 

[AndrewE]

I suppose that begs the question as to what would the journey time be? Given the frequencies are already there (4 fast tph) plus the rest, would 35-40 mins be achievable and would that be considered ‘good enough’?

Honestly, not much quicker given the mixture of services, although the planned four tracking between Huddersfield & Ravensthorpe alongside wiring will help bring times down. However the big win would be in dwell times, longer, quicker off their feet units (which generally speaking EMUs are better at) means less chance of following services catching up and being slowed down.

NPR (or whatever it gets called) will have to do something to overcome the problem of only double track between Stalybridge and Diggle. A new base tunnel is the answer to both this and the running time problem between Manchester and Leeds. Build a new electrified tunnel for the fast trains and (electric only) freight from Oldham to Huddersfield.

 

[TheWalrus]

Personally I would do lines with at least 4 tph per single track so:
- Didcot-Oxford
- Slough-Windsor
- Twyford-Henley
- Valley Lines network
- Reading-Basingstoke
- Bristol Parkway-Exeter St. David’s

There are probably many more I’ve missed out. I can’t understand why Basingstoke- Exeter keeps getting suggested, not enough services there IMO.

 

[Meerkat]

Personally I would do lines with at least 4 tph per single track so:
- Didcot-Oxford
- Slough-Windsor
- Twyford-Henley
- Valley Lines network
- Reading-Basingstoke
- Bristol Parkway-Exeter St. David’s

There are probably many more I’ve missed out. I can’t understand why Basingstoke- Exeter keeps getting suggested, not enough services there IMO.

A bit too arbitrary - 4TPH not entirely relevant if those have to be bimode to complete the rest of their route.

 

[The Ham]

Personally I would do lines with at least 4 tph per single track so:
- Didcot-Oxford
- Slough-Windsor
- Twyford-Henley
- Valley Lines network
- Reading-Basingstoke
- Bristol Parkway-Exeter St. David’s

There are probably many more I’ve missed out. I can’t understand why Basingstoke- Exeter keeps getting suggested, not enough services there IMO.

Whilst I agree that Basingstoke to Exeter doesn't justify electrification, Basingstoke to Southampton via Salisbury probably does (not least as it would allow electric freight to go that way if there was enough other wires heading north of Oxford).

There's two reasons for this. Firstly there's probably a fairly good case for the Exeter/Yeovil services skipping the other stops (other than Andover) between Salisbury and Basingstoke if they were served by an extension of the existing Basingstoke Stoppers (of course most people would change at Andover or Basingstoke for a quicker service to London). As this would improve frequencies along the line whilst simplifying movements at Basingstoke. It would also improve connectivity between settlements either side of Basingstoke (i.e. Fleet to Salisbury or Farnborough to Andover).

Secondly in a post Crossrail 2 world the line with the most capacity to take extra services is the WofE line, this could include services to Weymouth, which might take only a little longer than the "direct" slower services but with the improved connectivity that it would being.

If electrification could reach Yeovil it would be possible to have EMU's running from Waterloo to there then having a cross platform change to a DMU to go the rest of the way to Exeter. With a through service every 2 or 3 hours so that there's still direct trains for those who don't wish to change.

Given the better acceleration and better top speeds of the EMU's it would be possible to have a reasonable change time (say 10 minutes) without adversely impacting on journey times or at least only by a couple of minutes. With the ability to miss out some of the more minor stations (with the Basingstoke Stoppers extended to Yeovil to serve those stations, as well as maybe reopening stations previously closed) then that change time could be lengthened further so that the risk of missing the connection dropped considerably.

 

[td97]

A group of industry bodies including the Campaign to Electrify Britain's Railways, Rail Freight Group, Railway Industry Association and Northern Rail Industry Leaders have today signed a letter to SofS Grant Shapps to urge more progress with electrification so that the industry can cut out carbon emissions by 2040.
Some select quotes from the main letter, available at https://twitter.com/Rail_Elec/status/1230060650996682753, are:

"Now is a critical time for rail electrification.

"There will likely be a significant hiatus before new projects are ready for construction. This could lead to a loss of capability and skills in the supply chain.

"The stop-start nature of electrification is one of the key factors in cost increases. With a long-term rolling programme that provides visibility and consistency to rail suppliers so they can build up and retain expertise, electrification could be delivered at up to half the cost of past projects."

The DfT's half-hearted response was:

A spokesman for the Department for Transport said: "This government has set the bold target of being net zero by 2050 and we are working tirelessly to cut emissions across every single mode of transport. Rail electrification is key to this strategy.

Edit, to add further details & quotes available at https://www.riagb.org.uk/RIA/Newsroom/Press_Releases/Electrification.aspx

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Inspired by a thread that is now locked https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/electrification-teams-speculation.134304/

How would you do the teams to sensibly electrify and restart the electrification program?
1) Scotland
2) Freight - per the list that is posted elsewhere
3) Finish of MML then rolling Sheffield to Doncaster then Leeds then York
4) "Northern Programmes" Transpennine route upgrade plus full electrification then rolling to Selby and then Hull and then to Middlesborough plus all the other stuff including CLC, Wigan etc
5) The rest

 

[Meerkat]

The first question to have an answer for is
“How much capacity is there - how many parallel electrification teams can the industry sustainably run at short notice?” - anybody got an informed guess?
Then
“What are the pinch point skills?”
And
“How quickly could an Electrification Academy be set up and fill the skills gap?”

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I do agree. So the sensible starting point would then I suppose be, restart the cancelled/Graylinged schemes.

 

[Meerkat]

So keep the MML team going North, and the GW team going down Filton and toward Bath.
I assume the Northwest triangle team have disbanded so start mobilising a northern team and a West Midland team

 

[Bald Rick]

So keep the MML team going North, and the GW team going down Filton and toward Bath.
I assume the Northwest triangle team have disbanded so start mobilising a northern team and a West Midland team

The GW team have long since packed up!

 

[klass43]

One possibility that has been doing the rounds is Totnes to Plymouth, or part thereof, over the South Devon Banks. The 802s, despite their up-rated performance, are noticeably slower on the gradients than their predecessors. Dainton is particularly bad, having the steepest section and most incessant curvature. Cross-Country are also likely to be inflicted with the b****y things in due course. Most of the over-bridges on the Rattery to Hemerdon section date from the 1893 doubling so no 'Steventon' issues, although Marley Tunnel has twin bores and may require a 'Farnworth' solution. The line is low-speed so does not need the 'battleship' OHLE seen on the South Wales ML and the 400kV National Grid trunk follows the route closely. It is also 'something for the South West' to use a phrase up-thread.

To cover the south Devon Banks you'd have to electrify between Newton Abbot - Plymouth. If one is going to do that you might as well electrify as far as Exeter/Bristol/Birmingham etc. Also, my experience of the 802s is they are better on the gradients than the former class 43s, although I've only travelled on the Totnes - Newton Abbot (Dainton Bank - steepest of the three) section.

My wish list (some of which will have already been mentioned).

Penzance/Plymouth - Birmingham New Street via Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway
Newbury - Cogload Junction
Market Harborough - Derby/Sheffield/Nottingham/Leeds
Chippenham - Bristol Temple Meads
Cardiff - Swansea
Swindon - Gloucester/Cheltenham (now the Kemble section has been re-doubled)
South Wales valley lines e.g. Cardiff - Treherbert, Cardiff - Rhymney, Cardiff - Merthyr Tydfil
Main lines London - Kent/Surrey/Sussex etc. which are currently third rail
Oxford - Cambridge via Bletchley/Bedford (once East West Rail is completed)
London Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill
ECML - Hull
Heart of Wales Line (that was a joke)

 

[class26]

To cover the south Devon Banks you'd have to electrify between Newton Abbot - Plymouth. If one is going to do that you might as well electrify as far as Exeter/Bristol/Birmingham etc. Also, my experience of the 802s is they are better on the gradients than the former class 43s, although I've only travelled on the Totnes - Newton Abbot (Dainton Bank - steepest of the three) section.

My wish list (some of which will have already been mentioned).

Penzance/Plymouth - Birmingham New Street via Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway
Newbury - Cogload Junction
Market Harborough - Derby/Sheffield/Nottingham/Leeds
Chippenham - Bristol Temple Meads
Cardiff - Swansea
Swindon - Gloucester/Cheltenham (now the Kemble section has been re-doubled)
South Wales valley lines e.g. Cardiff - Treherbert, Cardiff - Rhymney, Cardiff - Merthyr Tydfil
Main lines London - Kent/Surrey/Sussex etc. which are currently third rail
Oxford - Cambridge via Bletchley/Bedford (once East West Rail is completed)
London Marylebone - Birmingham Snow Hill
ECML - Hull
Heart of Wales Line (that was a joke)

and if you are to do Penzance to New St as well as M Harborough to Sheffield / Leeds surely you would do New St to Derby ?

 

[klass43]

Why not. 4 tracking (if possible) and electrification to Leicester would be a good start, followed by electrification from Leicester to Birmingham New Street. Bi-mode trains have their uses, but long term strategy requires electrification.

 

[randyrippley]

Experimental electrification to Morecambe using wooden or concrete masts, to see just how cheaply it can be done. If successful it would be a prototype for other lightweight lines

 

[HSTEd]

An experimental minimum cost project using a static frequency converter substation to avoid hardcore grid reinforcement, wooden and concrete masts and any other cost savings they can come up with.

Find two similar line segments, close to one another and do one in the normal way and one with tota blockade.
We desperately need good data.

As to what routes to do, there are several good options, Morecambe and it's environs as suggested, or perhaps the Buxton line or similar.
If you do Buxton you can do New Mills Central as a comparison line in the same valley.

 

[The Ham]

An experimental minimum cost project using a static frequency converter substation to avoid hardcore grid reinforcement, wooden and concrete masts and any other cost savings they can come up with.

Find two similar line segments, close to one another and do one in the normal way and one with tota blockade.
We desperately need good data.

As to what routes to do, there are several good options, Morecambe and it's environs as suggested, or perhaps the Buxton line or similar.
If you do Buxton you can do New Mills Central as a comparison line in the same valley.

Presumably it would be possible to get a lightweight system to and running fairly quickly, but then over time upgrade it (within other engineering closures) so that it gets more robust as time goes by.

Obviously this could mean that is more costly to get to a finished end scheme, however many of those costs could be offset by being able to use EMU's sooner. Also by having a shorter initial work programme and then using other closures (i.e. you are needing to run rail replacement buses anyway) the extra costs might not be that much more anyway.

 

[krus_aragon]

So what ever is done in the near future needs to be planned initially round the electrification teams in place in England - Scotland and Wales will do their own thing

With the proviso that rail infrastructure hasn't been develoved to Wales (except the Valley Lines), so that's still funded through UK coffers.

Heart of Wales Line (that was a joke)

Suggestions to electrify the Heart of Wales may need to be accompanied by a health warning, or at least a defibrilator.

 

[randyrippley]

Presumably it would be possible to get a lightweight system to and running fairly quickly, but then over time upgrade it (within other engineering closures) so that it gets more robust as time goes by.

Obviously this could mean that is more costly to get to a finished end scheme, however many of those costs could be offset by being able to use EMU's sooner. Also by having a shorter initial work programme and then using other closures (i.e. you are needing to run rail replacement buses anyway) the extra costs might not be that much more anyway.

In the case of Morecambe the lightweight system would be the end scheme. No need to later upgrade.
Lessons learnt would be applicable to Windermere, Blackpool South, Fleetwood...

 

[The Ham]

In the case of Morecambe the lightweight system would be the end scheme. No need to later upgrade.
Lessons learnt would be applicable to Windermere, Blackpool South, Fleetwood...

I was thinking more in general, for perhaps lines which should justify a more robust solution but could cope with something a bit simpler for a few years just to get it going.

 

[tbtc]

IMHO we should at least get different teams/methods to tackle a few relatively short/simple projects.

Say Windermere/ Morecambe/ Blackpool South.

Then compare and contrast - maybe if you have three independent teams with different approaches, and the winner gets the juicy contract to something bigger?

Much as I like some of the longer routes being suggested on here, it feels a bit like the quote sometimes attributed to Everett Dirksen: "A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money"... we need to demonstrate to the Government that we can electrify lines to a reasonable budget and a reasonable deadline, before they are going to trust the railway with the kind of megaprojects that are being discussed above.

 

[HSTEd]

Lightweight solutions get a bad rap but even ECML standard equipment is perfectly adequate.

Despite occasional ndewirements it is clearly still a operational railway.

 

[AndrewE]

In the case of Morecambe the lightweight system would be the end scheme. No need to later upgrade.
Lessons learnt would be applicable to Windermere, Blackpool South, Fleetwood...

I would think that going for a lightweight scheme to Morecambe would prove that it's a failure with the first westerly winter storm!

Lightweight solutions get a bad rap but even ECML standard equipment is perfectly adequate.
Despite occasional dewirements it is clearly still an operational railway.

...Apart from when it's not working, of course. How are those replacement portals coming along?

 

[HSTEd]

I would think that going for a lightweight scheme to Morecambe would prove that it's a failure with the first westerly winter storm!

The railway North of Newcastle is still operational on electric power

...Apart from when it's not working, of course.

Could say that about any railway.
The ECML electrification delivers 95% of the benefits of a "heavier" solution.

 

[AndrewE]

The railway North of Newcastle is still operational on electric power

I wasn't aware that was a "lightweight" scheme. I would hope that no-one would have dared to try out an experimental cheapo solution on an international main line.

Could say that about any railway.
The ECML electrification delivers 95% of the benefits of a "heavier" solution.

Does it? Why are they trialling an upgrade then?
Maybe being out of action for 1 day in 20 because of OLE failures is acceptable to you, but If I was commuting on a railway with that level of unavailability I would be looking for a different way to travel - or a job that I could reach by a different route or mode of transport!

 

[HSTEd]

I wasn't aware that was a "lightweight" scheme. I would hope that no-one would have dared to try out an experimental cheapo solution on an international main line.

The ECML electrification scheme is the ultimate example of BR-era value engineering.
It was delivered at a very low cost because it was properly engineered to meet the required specification and not exceed it unnecessarily.

Does it? Why are they trialling an upgrade then?

Amongst other things, that project was committed back when Network Rail could get money for virtually anything it wanted, and was based on erroneous costings for newfit equipment thanks to high productivity plant that turned out to be ridiculously inaccurate.

Maybe being out of action for 1 day in 20 because of OLE failures is acceptable to you, but If I was commuting on a railway with that level of unavailability I would be looking for a different way to travel - or a job that I could reach by a different route or mode of transport!

Do you have any evidence it's availability is anything like that bad?
95% of the benefits does not mean 95% availability.

 

[randyrippley]

I would think that going for a lightweight scheme to Morecambe would prove that it's a failure with the first westerly winter storm!

You obviously know little about the development of electrification in the UK
Morecambe was first electrified in 1908 and that ran until 1953. It was then converted and ran in a revised form until 1966.
I think you'll find that was the longest surviving overhead route in the UK - and some of the poles were wood, some concrete. It worked then, it can work now

 

[AndrewE]

You obviously know little about the development of electrification in the UK
Morecambe was first electrified in 1908 and that ran until 1953. It was then converted and ran in a revised form until 1966.
I think you'll find that was the longest surviving overhead route in the UK - and some of the poles were wood, some concrete. It worked then, it can work now

I bet it wasn't intentionally designed as a "lightweight" system though.

 

[Aictos]

You obviously know little about the development of electrification in the UK
Morecambe was first electrified in 1908 and that ran until 1953. It was then converted and ran in a revised form until 1966.
I think you'll find that was the longest surviving overhead route in the UK - and some of the poles were wood, some concrete. It worked then, it can work now

Different voltage of electricity though, 6600V, 25 Hz vs 25000V, 50Hz so what might have been acceptable for the lower voltage in use might not be okay to use for a voltage 4 times as powerful.