Should LNER be serving additional locations such as Huddersfield, away from their core route?

[Kite159]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-huddersfield-services.221871/

Pointless token daily service which will most likely be carrying fresh air in the morning at 05;50 (and sits at Leeds for 26 minutes).

The evening service might get used by people heading to Huddersfield & Dewsbury from Leeds if they know about it.
It will be a bit like the services from Harrogate which roll into Leeds carrying fresh air before getting filled up

 

[WestRiding]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

 

[DorkingMain]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

Direct services are very useful if they're at regular intervals, but most of them are just bizarrely slotted in around other services, and it means there's little advantage to just getting a regular semi-fast service and changing.

 

[Sammyh1234]

Direct services are very useful if they're at regular intervals, but most of them are just bizarrely slotted in around other services, and it means there's little advantage to just getting a regular semi-fast service and changing.

I don’t see the point either, maybe it’s just to save platform space in Leeds but with it being that early I highly doubt it.

 

[WestRiding]

Direct services are very useful if they're at regular intervals, but most of them are just bizarrely slotted in around other services, and it means there's little advantage to just getting a regular semi-fast service and changing.

Agreed. This will spend more time being cancelled beyond Leeds if on its return journey, because it will cause chaos at Huddersfield, blocking a platform while changing ends. Not reliable.

 

[Kite159]

Agreed. This will spend more time being cancelled beyond Leeds if on its return journey, because it will cause chaos at Huddersfield, blocking a platform while changing ends. Not reliable.

Looks to be formed from the token Skipton train dividing at Leeds. So will probably get cancelled when LNER only send a single 5 coach unit from London.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Pointless token daily service which will most likely be carrying fresh air in the morning at 05;50 (and sits at Leeds for 26 minutes).

The evening service might get used by people heading to Huddersfield & Dewsbury from Leeds if they know about it.
It will be a bit like the services from Harrogate which roll into Leeds carrying fresh air before getting filled up

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

At least the services to Harrogate offer something that the line doesn't already have unlike Huddersfield where LNER is just replicating the stopping pattern of an existing TPE service!

 

[Ianigsy]

Pointless token daily service which will most likely be carrying fresh air in the morning at 05;50 (and sits at Leeds for 26 minutes).

I would imagine that LNER make more money from people driving from Huddersfield and parking at Wakefield Westgate than they ever will from this.

 

[SuperNova]

Agreed. This will spend more time being cancelled beyond Leeds if on its return journey, because it will cause chaos at Huddersfield, blocking a platform while changing ends. Not reliable.

Even more pointless when in 18 months or so time it won't be able to run because Huddersfield station will be getting ripped up as part of the route upgrade.

 

[43096]

Pointless token daily service which will most likely be carrying fresh air in the morning at 05;50 (and sits at Leeds for 26 minutes).

The evening service might get used by people heading to Huddersfield & Dewsbury from Leeds if they know about it.
It will be a bit like the services from Harrogate which roll into Leeds carrying fresh air before getting filled up

Exactly. Somewhat ironic that LNER are doing it, given the view in DfT now is to stop these pointless extra services that duplicate an existing operator. Add in LNER's woeful fleet situation, they're better off just binning it.

 

[MontyP]

They should scrap the Harrogate services as well, revert to the once per day marginal time extension. Use the stock to make sure 9 or 10 cars on all the core main line services.

 

[YorksLad12]

Exactly. Somewhat ironic that LNER are doing it, given the view in DfT now is to stop these pointless extra services that duplicate an existing operator. Add in LNER's woeful fleet situation, they're better off just binning it.

They should scrap the Harrogate services as well, revert to the once per day marginal time extension. Use the stock to make sure 9 or 10 cars on all the core main line services.

I don't think these extensions are particularly something that LNER *wants* to do, but with 5-car bi-mode sets it's harder to tell the political leaders that they can't have a train to London from everywhere. You can bet your bippy that if Ripon ever rejoins the national rail network there will be a call for a Ripon-London service!

 

[Starmill]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

At least LNER are abandoning the near-pointless Sunderland services, leaving there very early in the morning and arriving there very late at night.

 

[Kite159]

At least LNER are abandoning the near-pointless Sunderland services, leaving there very early in the morning and arriving there very late at night.

The evening service was well used...

... Mostly with people boarding at Newcastle as it's the last fast service back to Sunderland

 

[xotGD]

near-pointless Sunderland

Can't argue with that!

 

[JKF]

Both Huddersfield and Harrogate services would make more sense if they went ahead with the long talked about plan to electrify Neville Hill to Colton Jn and started to run London services in from the east as well as from Wakefield, so that they could be served without a reversal. Maybe this will happen sometime soon, to serve as some crumbs from the table after the Yorkshire bit of HS2 has been binned.

 

[ainsworth74]

Both Huddersfield and Harrogate services would make more sense if they went ahead with the long talked about plan to electrify Neville Hill to Colton Jn and started to run London services in from the east as well as from Wakefield, so that they could be served without a reversal.

I think you mean Hambleton rather than Colton? Whilst I do agree in general with your point the route via Garforth is itself now very busy. Pathing might be 'fun'...

 

[mmh]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

I think it's too easy to be dismissive of such services. Usually, they are well used and they're important economically, in both directions. Changing trains is a massive disincentive to rail travel for most people, and it's well understood that direct routes attract latent demand.

Locally for me, pre Covid, we have a couple of London services in the morning and a couple in the afternoon. No, we don't justify an hourly service, but do justify some services at the times people are most likely to do the through journey.

At least LNER are abandoning the near-pointless Sunderland services, leaving there very early in the morning and arriving there very late at night.

Why does that timing make it pointless? The first Holyhead to London (ordinarily) departs very early, and the last return arrives very late. Both are very well used.

 

[TUC]

Pointless token daily service which will most likely be carrying fresh air in the morning at 05;50 (and sits at Leeds for 26 minutes).

The evening service might get used by people heading to Huddersfield & Dewsbury from Leeds if they know about it.
It will be a bit like the services from Harrogate which roll into Leeds carrying fresh air before getting filled up

The services from Halifax-Leeds around 0600 were well patronised pre-Covid. Hard to see why Huddersfield would be any different.

The main disincentive to use the current various LNER Leeds extensions are the long dwell times at Leeds itself.

 

[Welshman]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

I think a certain amount of civic pride is involved with Huddersfield.

In days gone by it had through trains/coaches to London Kings Cross, Marylebone, Euston and St Pancras. Now it has none.

This, in addition to seeing neighbouring Brighouse and Mirfield gain through services, has left Huddersfield feeling left-out.

 

[Ianno87]

They should scrap the Harrogate services as well, revert to the once per day marginal time extension. Use the stock to make sure 9 or 10 cars on all the core main line services.

I was on a Down Harrogate last Saturday and there were a decent number of Horsforth/Harrogate reservations.

 

[TUC]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London.

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Southern town wanting a direct connection to London?

But many of them have it.

 

[WestRiding]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Southern town wanting a direct connection to London?

But many of them have it.

Not really comparable.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not really comparable.

It kind of is though. Some places have a disproportionately good service to London for their size simply because they happen to sit on the main line. Places like Chesterfield, Westbury, Northallerton, Chippenham, Retford and especially Crewe don't really need the service they get, but because an accident of history put a mainline railway through there, they get an Intercity service.

 

[WestRiding]

Well Huddersfield is on a East to West railway for starters. Any potential train to London has to reverse at Leeds or Manchester (because they won't skip the revenue from these places). South London services nearly all go towards the South Naturally. And the services South of London, run from early till late on a pretty much clock face timetable. It's not like Ashford, or even Littlehampton are faced with one train per day in each direction. Do it properly, or not at all. Its really not that much hardship to change at Leeds from a regular as clockwork TPX to a regular as clockwork LNER. It's simply not needed, and I'm sure the good people of Huddersfield would sooner have just another train to York than London.

 

[Starmill]

Why does that timing make it pointless? The first Holyhead to London (ordinarily) departs very early, and the last return arrives very late. Both are very well used.

Because there are alternative through London services at busier times of day. Holyhead is still a passenger port, just about, unlike Sunderland.

Usually, they are well used and they're important economically, in both directions.

They were economically important and well-used by business travellers, yes. For example the early morning direct London train leaving Falkirk Grahamston was viable because it only needed to collect a few corporate bookings on First Anytime tickets (£256.50 single) for it to be worthwhile. In the absence of the direct train, those people might have been taxied to Edinburgh Airport for a flight instead.

Sadly high-end business travel is now rather weak.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well Huddersfield is on a East to West railway for starters. Any potential train to London has to reverse at Leeds or Manchester (because they won't skip the revenue from these places). South London services nearly all go towards the South Naturally. And the services South of London, run from early till late on a pretty much clock face timetable. It's not like Ashford, or even Littlehampton are faced with one train per day in each direction. Do it properly, or not at all. Its really not that much hardship to change at Leeds from a regular as clockwork TPX to a regular as clockwork LNER. It's simply not needed, and I'm sure the good people of Huddersfield would sooner have just another train to York than London.

Yeah, Huddersfield's location does mean it "falls between two stools" as far as the ECML and WCML are concerned unfortunately (and arguably three stools if you include the MML). As much as civic pride makes me feel that a London service is needed, I'm not sure that the one we're getting is the right option. For me personally changing at Leeds (or York, or Wakefield, or Manchester, or Sheffield, or even Brighouse) isn't a big deal, but there are people who are put off by having to change... but a 6am train probably won't be suitable for those people either.

It's a shame that the old MML Turbostar service to Barnsley didn't really take off, as those could probably have been extended to Huddersfield relatively easily. The journey time wouldn't have been great but would have still wiped the floor with National Express's ponderous coaches that spend an hour winding through the Sheffield suburbs. At the time they switched to Meridians I don't think Paddock viaduct could have taken the weight of a 222 though, so even if the service to Barnsley had survived it would have had to be cut back again.

 

[Ianno87]

LNER clearly think there is a commercial case for the service - I.e. revenue generated will outweigh the marginal cost, and the times of day proposed are unlikely to be a major operational headache.

 

[YorksLad12]

Yeah, Huddersfield's location does mean it "falls between two stools" as far as the ECML and WCML are concerned unfortunately (and arguably three stools if you include the MML). As much as civic pride makes me feel that a London service is needed, I'm not sure that the one we're getting is the right option. For me personally changing at Leeds (or York, or Wakefield, or Manchester, or Sheffield, or even Brighouse) isn't a big deal, but there are people who are put off by having to change... but a 6am train probably won't be suitable for those people either.

It's a shame that the old MML Turbostar service to Barnsley didn't really take off, as those could probably have been extended to Huddersfield relatively easily. The journey time wouldn't have been great but would have still wiped the floor with National Express's ponderous coaches that spend an hour winding through the Sheffield suburbs. At the time they switched to Meridians I don't think Paddock viaduct could have taken the weight of a 222 though, so even if the service to Barnsley had survived it would have had to be cut back again.

Extending from Barnsley to Huddersfield would have been via the Penistone Line, so not easy (relatively or otherwise)!

One thought I had: why not do the split at Doncaster instead of Leeds? One portion runs to Leeds and Skipton via Westgate as now, the other runs to Huddersfield via Kirkgate. Provided it doesn't stop at Mirfield GC won't complain about abstraction ( ) and with the four-tracking between Huddersfield and Ravensthorpe hopefully happening there should be room for it as well. You'd have to restart driver training, of course...

If the two-hourly London-Leeds-Harrogate avoiding Westgate ever happens, and there was a desire to make the Huddersfield service more of a 'thing' then a Harrogate-Huddersfield split there would make sense but that's years away.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Extending from Barnsley to Huddersfield would have been via the Penistone Line, so not easy (relatively or otherwise)!

It would have been fine, just might have needed agreement with Arriva Trains Northern (and other stakeholders such as the PTEs) to run in place of one of the regular journeys. Even that isn't a definite, as Penistone loop isn't used to cross trains most hours.

One thought I had: why not do the split at Doncaster instead of Leeds? One portion runs to Leeds and Skipton via Westgate as now, the other runs to Huddersfield via Kirkgate. Provided it doesn't stop at Mirfield GC won't complain about abstraction ( )

Have you used GC North of Donny? It takes ages!