Should LNER be serving additional locations such as Huddersfield, away from their core route?

[YorksLad12]

Have you used GC North of Donny? It takes ages!

True. I was thinking of the slightly shorter route, not via Pontefract, no need to reverse and avoiding the 26 minute wait at Leeds on the way down. My other option was to split at Westgate, reverse to Kirkgate and then to Hudderfield which is a Very Bad Idea.

Point is, there's four or five fast services between Huddersfield and Leeds normally so a through-train should be a harder sell than 1tp2h to Harrogate which only has a stopping service normally. And yet, we're getting it. Weird, huh?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

True. I was thinking of the slightly shorter route, not via Pontefract, no need to reverse and avoiding the 26 minute wait at Leeds on the way down. My other option was to split at Westgate, reverse to Kirkgate and then to Hudderfield which is a Very Bad Idea.

Point is, there's four or five fast services between Huddersfield and Leeds normally so a through-train should be a harder sell than 1tp2h to Harrogate which only has a stopping service normally. And yet, we're getting it. Weird, huh?

The big problem is clearly the 26min wait at Leeds. Even if that could be trimmed down, running via Leeds means that it isn't reliant entirely on just custom from comparitively much smaller places like Huddersfield and Wakefield/Dewsbury. The reversal in and of itself is not really the problem that some make it out to be.

 

[MontyP]

It kind of is though. Some places have a disproportionately good service to London for their size simply because they happen to sit on the main line. Places like Chesterfield, Westbury, Northallerton, Chippenham, Retford and especially Crewe don't really need the service they get, but because an accident of history put a mainline railway through there, they get an Intercity service.

It kind of isn't though is it really?

The equivalent sized town to Huddersfield near where I live would be somewhere like Guildford or Crawley. Pre-pandemic there were thousands (if not tens of thousands) of people whose daily lives revolved around being able to get fast and frequent services to London. This is just not the case from mid-size towns in the North - their life blood should be fast and frequent services to Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, etc from where there are fast and frequent services to London.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It kind of isn't though is it really?

The equivalent sized town to Huddersfield near where I live would be somewhere like Guildford or Crawley. Pre-pandemic there were thousands (if not tens of thousands) of people whose daily lives revolved around being able to get fast and frequent services to London. This is just not the case from mid-size towns in the North - their life blood should be fast and frequent services to Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, etc from where there are fast and frequent services to London.

Which is why nobody is suggesting that northern towns should have a metro frequency to London. Just a token service at a sensible time for things like day trips or business meetings.

Ideally, London wouldn't be the absolute centre of the universe so places like Huddersfield or Bolton wouldn't feel that they "need" that link... but we are where we are.

Your example of Guildford is interesting, as that town has a token, once a day service to Newcastle. Presumably that serves a purpose otherwise it wouldn't exist.

 

[30907]

True. I was thinking of the slightly shorter route, not via Pontefract, no need to reverse and avoiding the 26 minute wait at Leeds on the way down.

Which was the route taken by the last KGX-Hudds service in the 70s. Not a daft idea, but GC might moan.

On the general topic, the Skipton and Bradford extensions are in margjnal time (bar the recent additional one) and wash their face nicely. Harrogate is an important conference destination, hence the decision to prioritise it.

 

[Starmill]

Point is, there's four or five fast services between Huddersfield and Leeds normally so a through-train should be a harder sell than 1tp2h to Harrogate which only has a stopping service normally. And yet, we're getting it. Weird, huh?

A semi-fast service was introduced between Leeds and Harrogate in 2019 however.

 

[Wolfie]

What a waste of time. What is this obsession with every Southern town wanting a direct connection to London?

But many of them have it.

You are seriously comparing the London commuter belt, even now, with a token service from Huddersfield???

How many southern towns either have or want a direct connection to Manchester or Leeds?

 

[quantinghome]

It kind of makes sense to have a regular-ish London service if they interwork with the local timetable - Harrogate being a possible example.

One-off token services make sense if the train needs to be parked somewhere overnight and the depot is full. In Leeds' case Neville Hill (or the route from it) gets pretty congested in a morning so why not have a train parked up in Huddersfield?

 

[Purple Orange]

Which is why nobody is suggesting that northern towns should have a metro frequency to London. Just a token service at a sensible time for things like day trips or business meetings.

Ideally, London wouldn't be the absolute centre of the universe so places like Huddersfield or Bolton wouldn't feel that they "need" that link... but we are where we are.

Your example of Guildford is interesting, as that town has a token, once a day service to Newcastle. Presumably that serves a purpose otherwise it wouldn't exist.

A token service is as useful as a chocolate fire guard. What is better is a high frequency service to Leeds & Manchester where connections can be made to a fast & frequent service to London.

 

[geoffk]

Somewhat ironic that LNER are doing it, given the view in DfT now is to stop these pointless extra services that duplicate an existing operator.

You mean like East Coast Trains (now edited to read Lumo)?

The most direct route from Huddersfield would be via Stalybridge and Stockport to Euston but not all electrified (yet).

 

[43096]

You mean like East Coast Trains?

The most direct route from Huddersfield would be via Stalybridge and Stockport to Euston but not all electrified (yet).

East Coast Trains is a different case as it's an open access operator. LNER's Huddersfield service is one franchised TOC running services over a route already well served by another (TPE) - which is the sort of duplication GBR/DfT have indicated they want rid of.

 

[30907]

A token service is as useful as a chocolate fire guard.

The chocolate fireguards to/from Shipley are convenient, though I can live without them.

What is better is a high frequency service to Leeds & Manchester where connections can be made to a fast & frequent service to London.

You could even have both?

 

[Purple Orange]

The chocolate fireguards to/from Shipley are convenient, though I can live without them.

You could even have both?

Ideally you would have both, but it seems rare. The best example I can think of is Sunderland to Newcastle.

 

[bramling]

True. I was thinking of the slightly shorter route, not via Pontefract, no need to reverse and avoiding the 26 minute wait at Leeds on the way down. My other option was to split at Westgate, reverse to Kirkgate and then to Hudderfield which is a Very Bad Idea.

Point is, there's four or five fast services between Huddersfield and Leeds normally so a through-train should be a harder sell than 1tp2h to Harrogate which only has a stopping service normally. And yet, we're getting it. Weird, huh?

My view is that the Harrogate service is justified - it does seem reasonably well used to Harrogate, and it also happens to provide a useful express service on the Harrogate to Leeds section, as well as topping up capacity. It’s a lot more useful now it has a regular service. Running as a third train per hour, and avoiding reversal at Leeds by going via Hambleton would, IMO, be even more preferable, though this would of course preclude direct Wakefield-Harrogate journeys.

Middlesbrough likewise I think has merit as a regular service.

I’m less convinced by the one-trip-a-day extensions. These seem simply to tick a box, and involve a disproportionate use of resources to provide them.

I’d be tempted to do something like 3tph to Leeds, with 1tph of these going via Hambleton and extending alternately to Bradford or Harrogate. I wouldn’t bother with Huddersfield, as there aren’t the added benefits as the extra capacity isn’t useful at the times in question, and they already have a fast service. I’d only keep Skipton if there was data to show significant numbers of through-Leeds journeys. Sunderland I wouldn’t bother with at all.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I don't think these extensions are particularly something that LNER *wants* to do, but with 5-car bi-mode sets it's harder to tell the political leaders that they can't have a train to London from everywhere. You can bet your bippy that if Ripon ever rejoins the national rail network there will be a call for a Ripon-London service!

If Ripon was ever reinstated then you might as well carry on to Middlesbrough!

That way you could either serve both Middlesbrough and Harrogate with one LNER service or reroute the soon to be service through Harrogate so both destinations could have an hourly service!

As for Huddersfield, if Im permitted to get my crayons out: how about reinstating the Crigglestone Curve and then extending a MML service to Huddersfield via Barnsley ?

Then chop the LNER service to Huddersfield!

 

[skyhigh]

A semi-fast service was introduced between Leeds and Harrogate in 2019 however.

I've never taken the LNER from Harrogate to see how busy it was, but I'd be interested to see what the loadings were like. The loadings on the semi-fast Northern service were shocking for the majority of the day - it was a Covid related casualty and it's now been decided to permanently withdraw it as far as I'm aware.

 

[bramling]

I've never taken the LNER from Harrogate to see how busy it was, but I'd be interested to see what the loadings were like. The loadings on the semi-fast Northern service were shocking for the majority of the day - it was a Covid related casualty and it's now been decided to permanently withdraw it as far as I'm aware.

One would have thought there was a case for an two-hourly fast Northern service running in the opposite hour to the LNER service, thus giving a consistent hourly fast service. Is this what Northern were running, or was theirs something else?

 

[YorksLad12]

One would have thought there was a case for an two-hourly fast Northern service running in the opposite hour to the LNER service, thus giving a consistent hourly fast service. Is this what Northern were running, or was theirs something else?

I believe that was the plan. You'd have the two stoppers as now, two Northern semi-fasts on odd hours and a Northern semi-fast plus the LNER extension on even hours.

(Incidentally: I don't know what went wrong in post #44 but that's my post that was quoted, not MontyP's.)

 

[skyhigh]

One would have thought there was a case for an two-hourly fast Northern service running in the opposite hour to the LNER service, thus giving a consistent hourly fast service. Is this what Northern were running, or was theirs something else?

To be honest I'm struggling to remember the precise details - it was Leeds - Horsforth - Hornbeam Park - Harrogate stops, but I can't remember if it was hourly or every other hour. There were rarely more than a handful of passengers on and it was allocated 170s, so they definitely could have been used more effectively elsewhere.

 

[30907]

I believe that was the plan. You'd have the two stoppers as now, two Northern semi-fasts on odd hours and a Northern semi-fast plus the LNER extension on even hours.

(Incidentally: I don't know what went wrong in post #44 but that's my post that was quoted, not MontyP's.)

Dec 2019 had 3tph Northern and 0.5 LNER, though I think the missing Northern might have come at some stage but for Covid.

 

[YorksLad12]

My view is that the Harrogate service is justified - it does seem reasonably well used to Harrogate, and it also happens to provide a useful express service on the Harrogate to Leeds section, as well as topping up capacity. It’s a lot more useful now it has a regular service. Running as a third train per hour, and avoiding reversal at Leeds by going via Hambleton would, IMO, be even more preferable, though this would of course preclude direct Wakefield-Harrogate journeys.

Middlesbrough likewise I think has merit as a regular service.

I’m less convinced by the one-trip-a-day extensions. These seem simply to tick a box, and involve a disproportionate use of resources to provide them.

I’d be tempted to do something like 3tph to Leeds, with 1tph of these going via Hambleton and extending alternately to Bradford or Harrogate. I wouldn’t bother with Huddersfield, as there aren’t the added benefits as the extra capacity isn’t useful at the times in question, and they already have a fast service. I’d only keep Skipton if there was data to show significant numbers of through-Leeds journeys. Sunderland I wouldn’t bother with at all.

I think that's the killer for me; the Harrogate extensions are every two hours rather than just peak (where peak AM is just before some people are heading to their beds ).

If the Huddersfield extensions became every two hours as well, then via Kirkgate and joining at Doncaster might be a better option than trying to fit in with the existing Huddersfield Line fast services (post-TRU, of course). Of course, you might then consider that the other half goes somewhere else... such as Hull. Which HT would like even less than GC!

 

[skyhigh]

Dec 2019 had 3tph Northern and 0.5 LNER, though I think the missing Northern might have come at some stage but for Covid.

That fits with my memory - approx xx.15 semi-fast, xx.29 to York, xx.53 LNER every other hour, xx.59 to Knaresborough departures from Leeds.

 

[Starmill]

I think that's the killer for me; the Harrogate extensions are every two hours rather than just peak (where peak AM is just before some people are heading to their beds ).

If the Huddersfield extensions became every two hours as well, then via Kirkgate and joining at Doncaster might be a better option than trying to fit in with the existing Huddersfield Line fast services (post-TRU, of course). Of course, you might then consider that the other half goes somewhere else... such as Hull. Which HT would like even less than GC!

I think that they would like to serve Dewsbury as well.

 

[Neptune]

That fits with my memory - approx xx.15 semi-fast, xx.29 to York, xx.53 LNER every other hour, xx.59 to Knaresborough departures from Leeds.

That is correct. Plans for a Northern fast on the opposite hour to the LNER service. Loading a were very poor and it’s unlikely to come back. An additional unit on the Harrogate loop is required from December as the xx59 LDS - KNA and return will run through to York creating a full route half hourly service finally.

 

[Starmill]

The morning peak 0714 Harrogate to Leeds still runs semi-fast, the 0656 from Harrogate to Leeds runs fast after Horsforth. 0623 Leeds to Harrogate only calls at Horsforth.

It's a shame that at 2117 the LNER empties work back to Leeds without carrying passengers. There is no other service around that time as departures are at 2046 and 2146.

 

[YorksLad12]

I think that they would like to serve Dewsbury as well.

I know; and that brings me back to is this something LNER wants or that the local politicians want? Dewsbury also want their half-hourly service to Manchester Airport. But post-TRU there won't be any more railway between Ravensthorpe and Leeds than there is now, which means you're stuck with whatever can be crammed in, hence the really early morning trip. Via Kirkgate gives the best opportunity for a regular service, even if only 1tp2h.

 

[skyhigh]

0623 Leeds to Harrogate only calls at Horsforth.

As I understand it part of the reasoning behind that is that it's booked 150+170 and won't fit anywhere else (it's a very tight fit at Horsforth).

 

[Bigman]

Maybe GC should operate Huddersfield instead, given that they already call at Mirfield and Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[Starmill]

Maybe GC should operate Huddersfield instead, given that they already call at Mirfield and Wakefield Kirkgate.

That would mean their no longer being able to to serve Halifax or parts of Bradford. Presumably they're not really willing to let that go, especially because they already serve Brighouse which isn't at all far from Huddersfield

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That would mean their no longer being able to to serve Halifax or parts of Bradford. Presumably they're not really willing to let that go, especially because they already serve Brighouse which isn't at all far from Huddersfield

Paths permitting, they could reverse* at Huddersfield... but it already takes long enough to get from Bradford to Doncaster stopping at almost everywhere it passes. The Mirfield stop was added to give extra connection (and "kiss & ride") opportunities for the broader Huddersfield area.

*= Sorry, I've committed the cardinal sin of suggesting a reversal, when so many seem to be bending over backwards to remove them!