Should there be a total ban on autofill for Railcards on online ticket sales

[Lockwood]

I had this in the post yesterday. I don't think I've had it before.

I've got a network card purchased from the ticket office.


Is this a newer invention?


An A5 postcard announcing "Your Railcard expires soon"


The reverse, providing and expiry date and steps needed to renew and that discounts will be unavailable if I do not renew.

I note there is no doom and gloom "If you continue to use discounted tickets without renewal, you may face prosecution" message - the card is a positive call to action.

 

[Bluejays]

I think that the poster is suggesting that young people are being targeted. It would be true to say that a large percentage of the cases we see revolve around 16-17 Savers and 16-25 Railcards, but I think the targeting will be based on either appearing too old to hold the railcard or the fact that experience shows that younger people forget to renew the railcards. I have to say that if I was checking tickets anyone presenting a ticket with a JCP discount would immediately prompt a closer look as they are really not that common, and are only issued for a very limited period.

Personally that's my approach, jobcentre card always checked as my personal rate of fraudulent/genuine is probably around a ridiculous rate of 6/1.

16/17 is also another one where people tend to give themselves away easily by looking a good few years older

 

[fandroid]

I think that apps should have a section in settings where you add your railcard type, number and expiry date. Then it is automatically applied with a pop-up each time until it expires. It's a right hassle having to check it's selected each time.

I think this is the simplest solution. Most people register with their most commonly used ticket sellers, simply to avoid repetitious entry of payment card details. (I'm not sure how this might work with Google Pay and Apple Pay). Asking them to add any Railcard details if they want the autofill to operate, is a convenient way of satisfying most requirements. When the autofill suddenly stops functioning, then it's time to renew!

16/17 is also another one where people tend to give themselves away easily by looking a good few years older

I'm astonished at the total lack of awareness of 25 year olds who come on here having thought they could pass for 17!

 

[Deafdoggie]

If you enter a via point on a trainline search, it remembers this for future searches. Yet no one says "I had to make a massively long journey because I forgot to take out the via point" yet people effectively say "I got a massively cheaper journey because I forgot to take out the railcard discount" Funny the one they don't notice is the one that makes their journey cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this is the simplest solution. Most people register with their most commonly used ticket sellers, simply to avoid repetitious entry of payment card details. (I'm not sure how this might work with Google Pay and Apple Pay). Asking them to add any Railcard details if they want the autofill to operate, is a convenient way of satisfying most requirements. When the autofill suddenly stops functioning, then it's time to renew!

I'd be more than happy with this option.

 

[800Travel]

I think this is the simplest solution. Most people register with their most commonly used ticket sellers, simply to avoid repetitious entry of payment card details. (I'm not sure how this might work with Google Pay and Apple Pay). Asking them to add any Railcard details if they want the autofill to operate, is a convenient way of satisfying most requirements. When the autofill suddenly stops functioning, then it's time to renew!


I'm astonished at the total lack of awareness of 25 year olds who come on here having thought they could pass for 17!

I'd be more than happy with this option.

It's funny, because I've found the settings really vary between retailers, but this option would hopefully unify them.

Currently, AFAIK:

• LNER Autofills using details put in settings. It is prominent on the page where you input your journey that a railcard is selected
• Uber 'Autofills' the railcard field until you change the route - this is right pain if for example you commute between A and B because once you change to B to A you have to put it in again and then A to B the next day put it in again. However A to B, followed by another A to B would work. Very niche, but perhaps if you had an advance purchased far in...advance... for the way back and purchased on the day for the journey there then this could be useful - but otherwise not really.
• Cross Country autofills, but I don't recall being asked for an expiry date

 

[Haywain]

LNER Autofills using details put in settings.

This is not the case in the app, which uses whatever was last used.

 

[800Travel]

This is not the case in the app, which uses whatever was last used.

App -> My LNER -> Account Details -> Preferences -> My railcard

 

[Haywain]

App -> My LNER -> Account Details -> Preferences -> My railcard

Yep. Still doesn't autofill if the last search with without a railcard. And I've enjoyed the autofill without having set a railcard in the settings before.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

(edited)
I'm sympathetic, but honestly - there are going to be times in life where you need to read and understand what you're actually buying or signing up to. This applies to young people (who are going to have tenancy agreements, employment contracts, credit/financial arrangements, mortgages to agree ahead of them) arguably even moreso than older people. The world isn't going to babysit people through these processes.

I've got some bad news, lots of people don't read those either, not even a cursory glance! For example all the complaints about mobile contracts increasing by CPI plus an amount each year. Why didn't anyone tell me. They did, you didn't listen or read it, or take it in, or conveniently forgot.

Plus the world increasingly is babysitting people through even the simplest of procedures. Hence you can't just buy a train ticket, you have to have found for you a valid itinerary. The more you mollycoddle, the more is required next time, it becomes ingrained not to have to think about your decisions because 'someone else' is always wiping part of your anatomy for you!

I don't place more blame or responsibility on any particular age group. They all appear to be as bad.

My view is that all tick boxes should be blank by default, a user should have to positively click / select an option rather than de-select. Ticking the box can be recorded as a user action, forgetting to un-tick can't.

Now, where are my slippy shoes which I shall additionally grease before going on the roof to fix that tile. No-one told me not to!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've got some bad news, lots of people don't read those either, not even a cursory glance! For example all the complaints about mobile contracts increasing by CPI plus an amount each year.

I complain about that and I know it exists. It's unnecessary and obfuscatory, and like things like Ryanair and their fees it's just the case to hide the real price. There are probably better examples, though.

 

[800Travel]

Yep. Still doesn't autofill if the last search with without a railcard. And I've enjoyed the autofill without having set a railcard in the settings before.

I've never removed my railcard from the ticket purchasing section so wouldn't know what it does with regards to coming back. Seems funny though they want railcard details like expiry date given they apparently don't autofill. Maybe it is for auditing purposes for railcard purchased tickets if they choose to investigate accounts. Perhaps it acts as verification that you hold the railcard by giving the expiry date which they could then maybe run against a database? But then it seems odd they don't ask for the number too. No clue how this whole thing works, it is so scattered.

 

[TUC]

I'm astonished at the total lack of awareness of 25 year olds who come on here having thought they could pass for 17!

Whereas when it comes to alcohol it's 17 year olds who think they can pass for 25.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whereas when it comes to alcohol it's 17 year olds who think they can pass for 25.

When you're a kid you want to be an adult, when you're an adult you want to be a kid again, I find!

 

[Haywain]

When you're a kid you want to be an adult, when you're an adult you want to be a kid again, I find!

In both cases only when it is advantageous!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I just think a happy medium could be met somewhere. Persistent fare dodgers need punishing, harshly to stop re offending, poor Bob, who uses his rail card a few times a year, but its for a long journey, so doesn't realise its run out and ends up out of pocket to the tune of hundreds for a genuine mistake doesn't sit well with me.

Police can arrest anyone for being drunk and disorderly, or under section 5 pretty much raising your voice, but, discretion is shown to people who will listen, go home and likely not do it again. The railway use it as revenue, wrong on all levels.

You don't need to be disorderly, merely drunk in a public place.

The point (accepted) is that discretion can be and is shown - there is no compulsory breath testing of everyone with compulsory fines for those failing the test. Equally there is no compulsory checking of railcards, or compulsory fining of passengers that have forgotten their card on the day or forgot to renew. I see discretion shown all the time by railway staff. There are over-the-top ticket inspectors and over-the-top in the wrong but entitled passengers too.

 

[Krokodil]

Whereas when it comes to alcohol it's 17 year olds who think they can pass for 25.

Who come acropper when they try both ploys at the same time.

"You can either buy an adult ticket or I'm pouring that booze away"

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Who come acropper when they try both ploys at the same time.

"You can either buy an adult ticket or I'm pouring that booze away"

Ah yes, equivalent to a child ticket please, whilst smoking a cigarette!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For example all the complaints about mobile contracts increasing by CPI plus an amount each year.

Which firms don't do this, BTW?

 

[MrJeeves]

Which firms don't do this, BTW?

Most of the small firms.

My Three contract is a fixed 4.5% increase -- they moved to CPI +3% from Nov 2022 (but seemingly not their business plans, or at least not mine?).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Which firms don't do this, BTW?

I couldn't tell you. Some are more transparent than others. No-one is forced to enter into that type of contract though. You can buy sim-free phones, you can buy monthly text/calls bundles rather than have an 18 month contract. I choose a calls/data package, it lasts one month, I can change that package up or down each and every month, pause for a period or cancel. No commitment beyond the current month. It's how I like it.

Always read the terms, do not simply blast through all those tick confirmation screens as quick as you can. Why not? Because that is how you end up with a railcard discounted ticket when you don't have a railcard, or an Advance ticket when you wanted a flexible ticket, or a day return when you wanted a period return, because you just selected cheapest and blasted through to payment (hello Trainline).

 

[yorkie]

The Forum’s TrainSplit always shows no Railcard when I log-in. After I select it and plan the journey, the itinerary goes to great lengths to explain I must be carrying my Railcard for each service used. Strangely, with a total journey of just under 1000 miles, I was asked for my card once - although my ticket was scanned 8 times at barriers or on train.

For all the complaints of being unluckily caught, it does seem that they are targeting traveller types for proof?

Absolutely; it's very common for only selected Railcards to be asked for. 16-25 is common to be asked for, Senior is much less common. Disabled is very rare.

I know this because I have witnessed people around me be asked to show their railcards, which were 16-25 railcards, and others who held other types of railcards not to be held. Furthermore, this is also corroborated by experiences such as yours, which differ from the experiences of young people.

If you had a Disabled card, you'd be asked for it even less frequently.

To be honest, what annoys me far more is the "railcard must apply to all passengers" so I have to do multiple bookings with & without railcards. What can't I book 3 people on a 2together railcard, where clearly only two tickets will be discounted?

It's a technical issue which cannot really be explained here, however it is being worked on, so you will find that the problem disappears in due course.

When you're a kid you want to be an adult, when you're an adult you want to be a kid again, I find!

In both cases only when it is advantageous!

Back when I went to a lot of away football games, I witnessed on many occasions some people would have a different claimed age depending on whether they were on a train, in a pub or entering the ground.

 

[AM9]

Absolutely; it's very common for only selected Railcards to be asked for. 16-25 is common to be asked for, Senior is much less common. Disabled is very rare.

I know this because I have witnessed people around me be asked to show their railcards, which were 16-25 railcards, and others who held other types of railcards not to be held. Furthermore, this is also corroborated by experiences such as yours, which differ from the experiences of young people.

I think that's because on a Senior card, if the person looks substantially over 60y, the only offence they are likely to commit is get a discounted ticker without possessing a railcard. on a 16-25 or 26-30 card, particularly the latter, there is the possibility of the passenger not being eligible for a discount through age as well as not possessing a railcard.

 

[Krokodil]

I think that's because on a Senior card, if the person looks substantially over 60y, the only offence they are likely to commit is get a discounted ticker without possessing a railcard. on a 16-25 or 26-30 card, particularly the latter, there is the possibility of the passenger not being eligible for a discount through age as well as not possessing a railcard.

I can only speak for myself (but I'd say that my approach reflects many staff) but whether I ask to see different types of railcard reflects the likelihood of particular railcards being AWOL.

16-17 Savers and Job Centre railcards offer a 50% discount and are therefore frequently misused so I'll ask every single time. 16-25 can be absent but 26-30 less so. I've almost never had a Senior card missing, though the odd one is out of date. Senior passengers are the ones most likely to proactively offer to show their card.

 

[redreni]

I don't personally buy tickets from any website or app that autofills the Railcard field. Maybe some of them can and I just haven't used that option, I'm not sure, but none of them do.

I sometimes buy tickets for my parents and then send them the e-tickets or TOD collection number and they don't have the same railcards as me.

Even if I was confident I would only ever be buying tickets for myself, I wouldn't want an autofill feature that would carry on working indefinitely - I would want it to be smart enough to tell me if the date of travel was later than the expiry date of the railcard so I could decide whether to

1. forego the discount on the ticket,
2. travel by a different mode if at all or
3. buy the discounted ticket and then make sure I renewed the railcard before travel.

Not having an autofill feature is fine. I never forget and pay full price when a railcard discount is available to me.

 

[800Travel]

I don't personally buy tickets from any website or app that autofills the Railcard field. Maybe some of them can and I just haven't used that option, I'm not sure, but none of them do.

I sometimes buy tickets for my parents and then send them the e-tickets or TOD collection number and they don't have the same railcards as me.

Even if I was confident I would only ever be buying tickets for myself, I wouldn't want an autofill feature that would carry on working indefinitely - I would want it to be smart enough to tell me if the date of travel was later than the expiry date of the railcard so I could decide whether to

1. forego the discount on the ticket,
2. travel by a different mode if at all or
3. buy the discounted ticket and then make sure I renewed the railcard before travel.

Not having an autofill feature is fine. I never forget and pay full price when a railcard discount is available to me.

An opt-in auto fill with expiry date and clear indication railcard is applied seems to be the way to go. I never forget and pay full price either. It’s just I normally purchase tickets on my way to the station if using walk up fares and the additional few seconds taken to re-select my railcard is never ideal when I’m running late and racing to the station to make it on time.

 

[AdamWW]

What if further investigation shows lots of tickets purchased when the railcard was expired?

What I still don't understand is why the railway considers multiple uses of an expired railcard such a serious offence (assuming they still qualify for it).

The loss to the railway each case can be no more than £30 a year and could easily be £0.

I appreciate that contractually they consider they are entitled to far more than that (and indeed more than they would get from someone just not buying tickets at all) but that's not the same as the loss they have incurred.

The argument seems to be that as they can charge a large amount of money, by not doing so they would fail to gain that large amount of money, so it must be a serious offence and which therefore justifies charging large amounts of money.

What am I missing?

 

[Buzby]

What am I missing?

The fact that anyone who buys an incorrect ticket sees its value evaporate into the ether when restitution is calculated. It is neither fair or equitable to ignore the amounts already contributed- simply because ‘they can’. This should be part of the mitigation process and taken fully into account in any settlement calculation.

 

[wilbers]

There is certainly a moral argument that the amount paid for tickets should be taken into consideration for anyone who engages rather than lets it get taken to court. After all, the TOC's fees for dealing with it are supposed to be in their fee shown separately to the ticket.

 

[35B]

What I still don't understand is why the railway considers multiple uses of an expired railcard such a serious offence (assuming they still qualify for it).

The loss to the railway each case can be no more than £30 a year and could easily be £0.

I appreciate that contractually they consider they are entitled to far more than that (and indeed more than they would get from someone just not buying tickets at all) but that's not the same as the loss they have incurred.

The argument seems to be that as they can charge a large amount of money, by not doing so they would fail to gain that large amount of money, so it must be a serious offence and which therefore justifies charging large amounts of money.

What am I missing?

But the loss is £30 plus the sum of all the discounts given. If I've used a 1/3 discount that I'm not entitled to 10 times on a £30 fare, then the loss is £30 + ((£30*1/3)*10), which is actually £130. This is based on actual usage.

If the railway treats it as solely the cost of the railcard, then that provides a powerful incentive to take a "pay when challenged" approach, in the knowledge that the amount I'll be made to pay is unlikely to add up to the ticket value, and so make it worth trying on repeatedly.

That is a different matter from treating the ticket as though it was never held, and calculating the loss as £330 (i.e. 10 x £30 tickets, plus the railcard). That calculation feels penal.