YorkRailFan
On Moderation
You'd be surprised how many services go through Birmingham in the Night. Plus, the sleeper would have to set down for a while.Even in the middle of the night?
You'd be surprised how many services go through Birmingham in the Night. Plus, the sleeper would have to set down for a while.Even in the middle of the night?
I could have put money on it.I will shoot it down due to the amount of operational, performace risk and massive increase in staff and facilities to run it. We are back to who is subsidising all this for a handful of passengers at Newcastle and Leeds.
I very much doubt there will be any changes to CS in the foreseeable future.
Having caught the highland service from Crewe to Fort William I was very surprised how many people got on there - platform was pretty full.
Crewe is accessible for this service from the West and East Midlands, north west and north wales coast (I had arrived from Chester) and south wales.
Preston as next stop was a little less busy, but is the logical joining point from Manchester and Liverpool.
Newcastle is the logical joining point only for the north east. Doesn’t make as much sense.
Newcastle and Yorkshire also have direct daytime services to Inverness and Aberdeen to dilute the market - no similar WCML service.
Send them both up the one that is open as is done now.What do you do when one of them is closed? The current setup can adapt and use the open route.
How many people are travelling from West Yorkshire (or Yorkshire in general) to Aberdeen, Inverness etc that are planning to go overnight to avoid a night in a hotel on business? If there is one a week I'd be surprised.
West Yorkshire doesn't have a train to Inverness and only one train to Aberdeen arriving after midday. Anybody with appointments in the morning and/or afternoon would need to be there by 10:00 at the latest.
Yes you can travel in the day and stay in a lodge but that takes three days out of your working week. Sleeper travel doesn't do this. Business use is tax deductable and not everyone likes flying.
Thread should just have been called "A few people in Yorkshire want a sleeper train".Is this another classic "solution in search of a problem" railforums thread? Certainly seems like it might be!
Assuming of course that these four individuals are booked on every night of the year and require no sick cover, holiday, or leave in special circumstances...So the massive increase in staff would be a couple of drivers and maybe two additional attendants for Aberdeen-Inverness if loadings require it.
I do like the idea of ForumRail plc… A possible motto, “To boldly go where even Ian Yeowart wouldn’t bother”…
Invent a service that makes using the tunnel an easy next step. A sleeper from Fishguard via Cardiff and Bristol Parkway or Glasgow via Edinburgh and Newcastle, to Folkestone. In the morning everyone goes through the customs and the tunnel on a coach to Calais-Frethurn in time for a Paris bound LGV. I still don’t think that would be popular.
Of the three coaches, Flixbus service is an intermediate stop on its "stopping service" to Edinburgh.
Surely Manchester to Amsterdam in 6 hours or Paris in 4.5 would get some custom?!
So the massive increase in staff would be a couple of drivers and maybe two additional attendants for Aberdeen-Inverness if loadings require it.
Not even a few by the looks of it.Thread should just have been called "A few people in Yorkshire want a sleeper train".
Ive occasionally driven to Calais to do a day trip to Paris since Eurostar were allowed to pull out from Kent. The coach through the tunnel isnt quite as practical as it might seem let alone a convoy of what 4 coaches to clear a sleeper train. The coach would have to allow a huge amount of time to clear customs and possible congestion to connect on to whats currently a pretty spare "reservations only service to Paris".Invent a service that makes using the tunnel an easy next step. A sleeper from Fishguard via Cardiff and Bristol Parkway or Glasgow via Edinburgh and Newcastle, to Folkestone. In the morning everyone goes through the customs and the tunnel on a coach to Calais-Frethurn in time for a Paris bound LGV. I still don’t think that would be popular.
Hardly anything after midnight and before 0530. Crewe only has a 4 minute stop for the sleeper, Preston has between 3-10 minutes depending on the train. You could do it at New St without a problem.You'd be surprised how many services go through Birmingham in the Night. Plus, the sleeper would have to set down for a while.
How much did you win?I could have put money on it.
Which it does once, in one place. How many times does it do it in your plan and how many moving parts are there now to consider such as locos for shunting etc?Read what I have said without jumping to the conclusion you want.
There can't be anything more complicated than combining three portions from far flung places of Fort William, Inverness and Aberdeen for a right time departure from Waverley. That is a performance risk you are ignoring to enhance your argument. One or more portions can easily be delayed which has pathing problems further south especially south of Crewe. My plan abolishes long distance portion working except from Fort William on the West Coast train therefore reducing performance risk and abolishing risk on the east side.
Who is paying for/subsidising it? as mentioned before, will the Scottish taxpayer want to do that?The East Coast service is one continuous train from London to Inverness that now gives a service to towns on the Aberdeen-Inverness line that didn't have this facility before. Taking the train to Inverness also saves servicing sleepers at Aberdeen but does put pressure on Inverness servicing extra sleepers. It does help as Inverness can shuffle sleeping cars around if one becomes unserviceable as more will be available to choose from.
You just had to use the word massive increase in staff. 10, 20, 30. How many?
A few extra yes. One attendant on the Newcastle-London portion, one on the London-Leeds portion transferring to the Leeds-Aberdeen/Inverness portion at Leeds but these can seen to by platform staff as when attached to the main train, travelling attendants already on board can the assume responsibility. The extension to Inverness will require extra attendants but additional passengers paying higher fares will help to pay for this.
At Leeds the train loco can drop off the coach from London and pick up the coach for Inverness.
At Newcastle, the train loco drops off the coach from London.
The only extra expense would be providing a loco and driver to trip the empty coaches from Leeds to/from Neville Hill, Newcastle to/from Heaton and Waverley to/from one of the Edinburgh depots assuming these places do not have a depot shunter.
Double headed electro-diesel locos saved on the Aberdeen portion could be cascaded to Newcastle and Leeds to trip the coaches between station and depot.
I have watched to shunting manoeuvres at Waverley on more than one occasion. It is involved and more than one person needed on the track. The use of Dellner couplings should make it easier at Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh.
So the massive increase in staff would be a couple of drivers and maybe two additional attendants for Aberdeen-Inverness if loadings require it.
So the massive increase in staff would be a couple of drivers and maybe two additional attendants for Aberdeen-Inverness if loadings require it.
And the shunting staff.
Who is paying for/subsidising it? as mentioned before, will the Scottish taxpayer want to do that?
I don't know and neither do you as at the moment it is not possible. The only way is to try it for a year or two. We are only talking about one carriage attached/detached to a through train in Leeds.How many people are travelling from West Yorkshire (or Yorkshire in general) to Aberdeen, Inverness etc that are planning to go overnight to avoid a night in a hotel on business? If there is one a week I'd be surprised.
Yorkshire has direct services to these places already (point taken about not West Yorkshire for Inverness, but York isn't a difficult change), and the WCML would have none under your plan.
This all comes back to sleepers being a niche market in a small country. I'd love to see 20 trains pinging all around the UK bringing overnight services to every part of the UK, but they don't for a reason.
And staff to service the sleeper vehicles stabled during the day at Neville Hill, Heaton and Craigentinny/Haymarket; Bear in mind that under the current service, the Edinburgh train is not serviced there but runs empty to and from Polmadie; Therefore the economics of adding additional stabling/servicing locations are clearly an issue.
No, no and thrice no! I pay enough tax (more than I would elsewhere in the UK) already.....
East Coast from Kings Cross.
This would convey Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinburgh Newcastle and Leeds portions.
Southbound
Start from Inverness with Aberdeen and seating cars arriving Aberdeen at time current sleeper leaves and current times to Edinburgh.
There are plenty of redundant 86s and 90s at Freightliner and DB for slow speed shunting moves a la 83/82s at Euston in 1990s.
West Coast from Euston
This would convey Inverness, Fort William and Glasgow portions.
Drop off Glasgow portion in Glasgow, reverse and now diesel hauled to Stirling where the Fort William portion is detached and diesel hauled there as now and continue to Inverness.
Thread should just have been called "A few people in Yorkshire want a sleeper train".
As far as I can remember, the only alteration in decades has been introduction of Mark5 sleepers. No attempt to try other ways.
When were the first and last trains between London and Leeds then, how long were journey times (for day trains and the sleeper), and does anybody know how the typical price for the sleeper compared with day trains?Two Mk 1 sleepers used to be attached at Leeds to an Edinburgh-London train until the early 1980s and were well used.
To Caledonian Sleeper, presumably. To the public, I don't think numbers for any flow (apart from maybe TfL-only ones?) are available.How many join at Preston for Aberdeen? Those figures should be available.
To Caledonian Sleeper, presumably. To the public, I don't think numbers for any flow (apart from maybe TfL-only ones?) are available.
In those days Sunday towards London and Thursday from London were heavily used by Members of Parliament because of the way that parliamentary business was conducted. Sittings in the House started at 2.30 pm and the main divisions were at 10 pm, with significant business rarely conducted on Fridays. Sunday towards London and Thursday from London being busy sleeper services reflects that, not general usage.I had to book well ahead especially on a Sunday night southbound and Thursday night northbound. I regularly had to use second class two berth compartments as first class single berths were full.
I remember one Sunday night I shared with Denis Healey who was returning to a week in Parliament. He told me he always used second class berths as it was cheaper even though he could claim first class on expenses.
The Leeds sleepers last ran in the 1982/83 timetable. The up sleeping car (there was only one) was attached to a train from Edinburgh at Doncaster but the down sleeping car ran in the 0110 Kings Cross-Leeds news.When were the first and last trains between London and Leeds then, how long were journey times (for day trains and the sleeper),
Down to Leeds first daytime train was 0745 and last 2050, up from Leeds first daytime train was 0705 and last 1930. Journey times with HSTs were 2h15m-2h30m.
Sorry to be a pain here but what are you doing with these errant singular coaches at Leeds and Newcastle? Will you have a couple of locos to shunt them? Who’s maintaining them at Neville Hill and Heaton? Do you know if Neville Hill and Heaton have the capacity for this additional work (I do know the answer to the latter question and I’m guessing you won’t like the answer).You are just repeating what I said.
Aberdeen servicing is replaced by Inverness staff already there.
Yes staff would be needed in Edinburgh but only in place of those in Glasgow who would service Edinburgh stock now not needed. No need to be hauled 60 miles to be serviced and 60 miles back for the next night service. How much does that cost per annum in electric alone?
For one coach two staff at Newcastle and 3/4 at Leeds for two coaches.
Bald Rick mention shunting staff. One at Newcastle Two at Leeds but none needed at Aberdeen and Inverness shunting staff already there and already at Edinburgh for to-days service. I though Dellner couplings fitted were to reduce shunting staff?
No need to be hauled 60 miles to be serviced and 60 miles back for the next night service. How much does that cost per annum in electric alone?