YorkRailFan
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You'd be surprised how many services go through Birmingham in the Night. Plus, the sleeper would have to set down for a while.
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Sleeper service for the ECML.
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I could have put money on it.
Read what I have said without jumping to the conclusion you want.
There can't be anything more complicated than combining three portions from far flung places of Fort William, Inverness and Aberdeen for a right time departure from Waverley. That is a performance risk you are ignoring to enhance your argument. One or more portions can easily be delayed which has pathing problems further south especially south of Crewe. My plan abolishes long distance portion working except from Fort William on the West Coast train therefore reducing performance risk and abolishing risk on the east side.
The East Coast service is one continuous train from London to Inverness that now gives a service to towns on the Aberdeen-Inverness line that didn't have this facility before. Taking the train to Inverness also saves servicing sleepers at Aberdeen but does put pressure on Inverness servicing extra sleepers. It does help as Inverness can shuffle sleeping cars around if one becomes unserviceable as more will be available to choose from.
You just had to use the word massive increase in staff. 10, 20, 30. How many?
A few extra yes. One attendant on the Newcastle-London portion, one on the London-Leeds portion transferring to the Leeds-Aberdeen/Inverness portion at Leeds but these can seen to by platform staff as when attached to the main train, travelling attendants already on board can the assume responsibility. The extension to Inverness will require extra attendants but additional passengers paying higher fares will help to pay for this.
At Leeds the train loco can drop off the coach from London and pick up the coach for Inverness.
At Newcastle, the train loco drops off the coach from London.
The only extra expense would be providing a loco and driver to trip the empty coaches from Leeds to/from Neville Hill, Newcastle to/from Heaton and Waverley to/from one of the Edinburgh depots assuming these places do not have a depot shunter.
Double headed electro-diesel locos saved on the Aberdeen portion could be cascaded to Newcastle and Leeds to trip the coaches between station and depot.
I have watched to shunting manoeuvres at Waverley on more than one occasion. It is involved and more than one person needed on the track. The use of Dellner couplings should make it easier at Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh.
So the massive increase in staff would be a couple of drivers and maybe two additional attendants for Aberdeen-Inverness if loadings require it.
West Yorkshire doesn't have a train to Inverness and only one train to Aberdeen arriving after midday. Anybody with appointments in the morning and/or afternoon would need to be there by 10:00 at the latest.
Yes you can travel in the day and stay in a lodge but that takes three days out of your working week. Sleeper travel doesn't do this. Business use is tax deductable and not everyone likes flying.
Send them both up the one that is open as is done now.
Don't muddy the waters unnecessarily.
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The Prisoner
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How many people are travelling from West Yorkshire (or Yorkshire in general) to Aberdeen, Inverness etc that are planning to go overnight to avoid a night in a hotel on business? If there is one a week I'd be surprised.
Yorkshire has direct services to these places already (point taken about not West Yorkshire for Inverness, but York isn't a difficult change), and the WCML would have none under your plan.
This all comes back to sleepers being a niche market in a small country. I'd love to see 20 trains pinging all around the UK bringing overnight services to every part of the UK, but they don't for a reason.
Mcr Warrior
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Is this another classic "solution in search of a problem" railforums thread? Certainly seems like it might be! 
The Prisoner
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Thread should just have been called "A few people in Yorkshire want a sleeper train".Is this another classic "solution in search of a problem" railforums thread? Certainly seems like it might be!
Assuming of course that these four individuals are booked on every night of the year and require no sick cover, holiday, or leave in special circumstances...
I do like the idea of ForumRail plc…A possible motto, “To boldly go where even Ian Yeowart wouldn’t bother”…
ForumRail plc, with subsidary companies Crayon Infrastructure Ltd., OnlyStationAnnouncerFans SA, and Datum Plate Identification Servcies Inc.
It wouldn’t be remotely useful either. By the time punters have been unloaded from a sleeper at Folkestone (!) on to a coach, through border control and the wait at Cheriton, on the shuttle, unloaded, driven to Calais Frethun and on a TGV, they would have been in Paris if they‘d gone via London.
I understood Flixbus had two - one the Glasgow service that also serves Edinburgh and Teeside; the other one the Aberdeen service that goes via the E Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds. My info may well be wrong.
It would get some, yes. Bear in mind that the Manchester - Paris market is roughly 10% of the London - Paris market, and many would still fly (not least for connections at CDG and Schiphol). You might fill half a train a day at best, and that assumes they all want to travel at the same time.
And the shunting staff.
For info, for every driver’s diagram each night, you need at least 3 drivers employed to cover it. At a cost of around £125k each (cost of employment, not salary).
Not even a few by the looks of it.
paul1609
Established Member
Ive occasionally driven to Calais to do a day trip to Paris since Eurostar were allowed to pull out from Kent. The coach through the tunnel isnt quite as practical as it might seem let alone a convoy of what 4 coaches to clear a sleeper train. The coach would have to allow a huge amount of time to clear customs and possible congestion to connect on to whats currently a pretty spare "reservations only service to Paris".
I think the TGVs are currently 7am and 10 am ex Calais. Im pretty sure that certainly the Cardiff, Bristol and Newcastle market would be much better off getting a much more reasonable morning train to London and a connecting Eurostar and the Scottish Market caledonian sleeper and if necessary a taxi to Eurostar at St Pancras.
The Planner
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Hardly anything after midnight and before 0530. Crewe only has a 4 minute stop for the sleeper, Preston has between 3-10 minutes depending on the train. You could do it at New St without a problem.
How much did you win?
Which it does once, in one place. How many times does it do it in your plan and how many moving parts are there now to consider such as locos for shunting etc?
Who is paying for/subsidising it? as mentioned before, will the Scottish taxpayer want to do that?
Falcon1200
Established Member
And staff to service the sleeper vehicles stabled during the day at Neville Hill, Heaton and Craigentinny/Haymarket; Bear in mind that under the current service, the Edinburgh train is not serviced there but runs empty to and from Polmadie; Therefore the economics of adding additional stabling/servicing locations are clearly an issue.
No, no and thrice no! I pay enough tax (more than I would elsewhere in the UK) already.....
I don't know and neither do you as at the moment it is not possible. The only way is to try it for a year or two. We are only talking about one carriage attached/detached to a through train in Leeds.
Two Mk 1 sleepers used to be attached at Leeds to an Edinburgh-London train until the early 1980s and were well used. I had to book well ahead especially on a Sunday night southbound and Thursday night northbound. I regularly had to use second class two berth compartments as first class single berths were full.
I remember one Sunday night I shared with Denis Healey who was returning to a week in Parliament. He told me he always used second class berths as it was cheaper even though he could claim first class on expenses.
How many join at Preston for Aberdeen? Those figures should be available. Most will be from London and they can use the East Coast train from London. The few Preston-Dundee/Aberdeen passengers can easily change at Perth for an onward connection.
Is the current service the best or can it be streamlined and improved to attract more custom? As far as I can remember, the only alteration in decades has been introduction of Mark5 sleepers. No attempt to try other ways.
Assuming it is to arrive at Aberdeen at a time to enable the necessary shunting and a 2143 departure, implies a departure from Inverness around 1915. That will be a little early for many, not least those connecting from the far north and Kyle lines (there are some who do this) who would need to be on a train 3 hours earlier to make it. Its also well before the last flight to London, unlike the current sleeper which is at roughly the same time (which gives it a effective advantage for those in Inverness itself). Personally I cant see why anyone travelling from Inverness would use it, except to get to Newcastle or Yorkshire.
Then there‘s pathing on the single line sections - which someone who knows the line better than I can advise on.
But from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, and deprating Edinburgh (presumably at a similar time to today’s Highlander) all ok.
Allowing for 80mph running, and the shunting at Newcastle and Leeds (the latter sounds rather complicated), you‘ll be arriving Kings Cross around 0840. That‘s after the first three arrivals from Leeds, and the first two from Newcastle. It is also extending journey times for all existing sleeper passenegrs on the Aberdeen / Edinburgh axis considerably, and that does matter for sleeper passengers. It also means it costs more in staffing costs. How many Edinburgh passengers will still get the sleeper arriving in London at 0840 compared to 0700 - especially when the first day train arrival is only an hour behind?
Then there‘s the matter of where you are putting a 16 coach train at Kings Cross*
So - more expensive to operate, slower journey times, fewer places served, fewer passengers travelling.
Struggling to find any positives with it really.
They still need maintenance, which is not cheap.
Similar issues - eg to get to Ft Bill in a similar slot to today‘s sleeper you‘ll be needing to leave London around 2030 to allow for two reversals / shunts. Thats 3 hours earlier for Glasgow passenegrs. I‘d be interested to know how you‘d form up the train southbound at Glasgow as well.
I’m sure you have answers for all of this though.
CBlue
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So far we're up to two!
How well do you know the sleeper team, to know the answer to that question?
When were the first and last trains between London and Leeds then, how long were journey times (for day trains and the sleeper), and does anybody know how the typical price for the sleeper compared with day trains?
To Caledonian Sleeper, presumably. To the public, I don't think numbers for any flow (apart from maybe TfL-only ones?) are available.
You are just repeating what I said.
Aberdeen servicing is replaced by Inverness staff already there.
Yes staff would be needed in Edinburgh but only in place of those in Glasgow who would service Edinburgh stock now not needed. No need to be hauled 60 miles to be serviced and 60 miles back for the next night service. How much does that cost per annum in electric alone?
For one coach two staff at Newcastle and 3/4 at Leeds for two coaches.
Bald Rick mention shunting staff. One at Newcastle Two at Leeds but none needed at Aberdeen and Inverness shunting staff already there and already at Edinburgh for to-days service. I though Dellner couplings fitted were to reduce shunting staff?
Aberdeen servicing is replaced by Inverness staff already there.
Yes staff would be needed in Edinburgh but only in place of those in Glasgow who would service Edinburgh stock now not needed. No need to be hauled 60 miles to be serviced and 60 miles back for the next night service. How much does that cost per annum in electric alone?
For one coach two staff at Newcastle and 3/4 at Leeds for two coaches.
Bald Rick mention shunting staff. One at Newcastle Two at Leeds but none needed at Aberdeen and Inverness shunting staff already there and already at Edinburgh for to-days service. I though Dellner couplings fitted were to reduce shunting staff?
In those days Sunday towards London and Thursday from London were heavily used by Members of Parliament because of the way that parliamentary business was conducted. Sittings in the House started at 2.30 pm and the main divisions were at 10 pm, with significant business rarely conducted on Fridays. Sunday towards London and Thursday from London being busy sleeper services reflects that, not general usage.
Members of Parliament made a lot of fuss about withdrawal of sleeper services, but only because they were the main customers.
Members of Parliament today would not use sleeper trains in the same way because parliamentary business is conducted at different times.
The Leeds sleepers last ran in the 1982/83 timetable. The up sleeping car (there was only one) was attached to a train from Edinburgh at Doncaster but the down sleeping car ran in the 0110 Kings Cross-Leeds news.
Down to Leeds first daytime train was 0745 and last 2050, up from Leeds first daytime train was 0705 and last 1930. Journey times with HSTs were 2h15m-2h30m.
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And for completeness, the first down train today will have you in Leeds at 0821, while the last leaves KGX 2333 (which would be a couple of hours later than a putative Kings Cross to Inverness via Leeds and Aberdeen)
Whilst up, the first arrival from Leeds sees you in London at 0728 (over anhour before this proposed sleeper could get there) and the last departure from Leeds is 2045.
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Sorry to be a pain here but what are you doing with these errant singular coaches at Leeds and Newcastle? Will you have a couple of locos to shunt them? Who’s maintaining them at Neville Hill and Heaton? Do you know if Neville Hill and Heaton have the capacity for this additional work (I do know the answer to the latter question and I’m guessing you won’t like the answer).
It all seems a bit ‘well we did it in the past so why not now’. In the past you didn’t have as many day services running at the right times as you do now. You did have capacity for sleeper services because there were less trains. Neither of the people who want this service have even acknowledged that you could get to where you’re going at a better time on an early morning/late night day service. Who the hell wants to be setting off or arriving into Leeds or Newcastle at 3am? If I need to be in London earlier than the first arrival I get a teatime train down and stay over and get a good nights sleep. The last thing I’d want to do is break a nights sleep to trog to the station in the middle of the night (in a taxi cos I ain’t paying the extortionate station car park fees) for probably the same amount of money. I suspect I aren’t on my own. A few enthusiasts might fancy it but I suspect the majority of the population will do the same as me and not wish to destroy their body clocks.
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Falcon1200
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It is clearly more efficient now, despite the empty coach workings, for the Edinburgh stock to be serviced at Polmadie, along with the Glasgow set.
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