Storm Doris Thursday 23rd - Major disruption on some routes

[LAX54]

As the last storm that the media predicted would be called Doris (from. The a-z American style list which I guess the UK will abandon soon..) never materialised, then expect a light breeze and weather associated with a northern hemisphere winter (it's mid February btw).

A bit of wind doesn't need to become a Disney drama.

wrong ! lol

 

[amateur]

At Cambridge tonight at approximately 1740, everything on the departure boards was showing as cancelled or delayed, and there we no annoucements being made about anything. I was trying to get to Ely. There was a Great Northern train parked in platform 6 which I ignored because, well, there are never Great Northern trains in platform 6, so I assumed it was just parked there for convenience and wasn't going to go anywhere soon, because otherwise it would be shown on the departure boards, wouldn't it?

All of a sudden, without warning, a staff member walked up to it, looked at it, and then despatched it. I subsequently asked the staff member where it was going, and got a really detailed answer: it was going to Ely, and that it was doing a shuttle back and forth between Cambridge and Ely because all the lines south of Cambridge and north of Ely were blocked, and I got full details of what was causing the various blockages. I also got explanations of what had happened to various trains to Ely that were completely missing from the departure boards - not showing as delayed or cancelled - just completely absent, as if they'd never been scheduled to run in the first place.

As I waited for a further 40 minutes for the shuttle to get to Ely and come back again, I watched this staff member deal with so many irate people who had formed a massive scrum around him and were simply trying to get information. He did a great job at answering their questions, and did, quite honestly, have an absolute wealth of information about what was happening on the various routes around Cambridge at the time.

But it would all have been so much easier and simpler for everyone if the information had been disseminated properly to everyone in the station over the PA. Staff clearly had information that was useful to people but were either unwilling or unable to use the PA to share it. Why is that? It feels to me that with the amount of automation involved in departure boards and PA announcements nowadays, staff have simply forgotten how useful these systems can actually be in times of disruption.

Which staff member was that? Was he young-ish or possibly late 20's to early 30s. average height. wears glasses. clean shaven. dark hair (not blonde).

 

[tsr]

Anglia folks advising that trains in the Cromer area to remain suspended until ~1400hrs today due to 40 unsafe conifers near the track.

First trains in the Anglia area will run as ECS route proving trains.

 

[tsr]

No sign of the 2300 to Manchester Piccadilly just yet though.

Now en-route in the Rugby area, 91mins late, due to the very late arrival of crew for the service at Euston, owing to the evening's disruption.

 

[amateur]

Sorry, but the fault still falls to GTR, unless of course you are suggesting that when GTR went to Network Rail and asked them to put some sensible announcements on the PA and information on the departure boards that Network Rail told them to 'go away'.

In which case I will accept that it was Network Rail who had the useless staff.

Network Rail are responsible for the monitors/screens/live departure boards.

 

[LAX54]

Anglia folks advising that trains in the Cromer area to remain suspended until ~1400hrs today due to 40 unsafe conifers near the track.

First trains in the Anglia area will run as ECS route proving trains.

Indeed a row of 40 'tall' conifers leaning over at approx 45 degrees !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed a row of 40 'tall' conifers leaning over at approx 45 degrees !

How quickly can such a problem as this be addressed, as I should imagine that the stability of the root systems is one that will be a cause for much concern if a figure of 40 "tall" conifers is correct.

 

[LAX54]

How quickly can such a problem as this be addressed, as I should imagine that the stability of the root systems is one that will be a cause for much concern if a figure of 40 "tall" conifers is correct.

Dont know ! but they were working on them, until darkness kast night, out at first light today, and hopefully they say, sorted by about 1400

 

[Failed Unit]

RTT was showing trains as running as normal on GN and some delays for Virgin trains.

I actually told someone it seemed King's Cross was normal, but it seems that this wasn't true.

Giving incorrect information is just as bad as no information. I feel bad for saying (at 5.15 or so) that it appeared all trains were on time. It was only later looking at another site, it seemed very little was moving and there were stops on some tracks in and out of KGX.

I did notice a few delayed trains on the boards at Hatfield (which FWIW had a good ten members of staff helping people coming on buses from SAC) that hadn't cleared. In times of disruption, they can clear all the boards - but there's still a problem with that not happening online so people at home, or at work, are going to head to a station totally unaware of the real situation.

That needs to be fixed. Some passengers may not have bothered to travel if they'd seen delays beforehand, stayed at work for a bit, or gone for a pint or three.

GTR did say about speed restrictions during the day, but that sounded precautionary and not a warning of actual problems. In fact, it may have made people feel even more satisfied that everything was great.

I agree with that statement.

Wednesday virgin trains east coast sent out messages don't travel.

GTR stated speed restrictions north of hitchin. Considering i was travelling on a service that runs between Welwyn and London that should not have got impacted by this. The forecast for the severe weather was for further north. Looking at the met office warning our route was outside the warning area. Yes things change but you decide on the information given.

Why did I travel? Because like many others i didn't want to lose by job. Many people don't have employment where you don't come in because of weather including of course the rail industry.

My criticism I think is fair that they could have had a notice stating certain service were not operating at kings cross. It wasn't as if it wasn't known you couldn't get between Royston and Cambridge so whether it be Networks rail, virgin or GTR why didn't they. Surely it is a better use of someone's time putting this up on the special notices board than countless staff on the concourse answering the same question. Considering 2 operators use the station you had a better idea what was going on with virgin than GTR.

One question on a frequent service why do the keep headcodes. Example in the evening a Moorgate - WGC was listed as running 1 hour late? But considering the frequency why wasn't it turned into the one 1 hour later on-time. I suspect whatever the answer to this question it will upset someone. I am just interested why. Can understand on intercity service but not so much on high frequency services with the same calling pattern where "delayed" clutters up the departure boards. Scotrail only used to have services if knew were running on the departure boards. It worked well

 

[dk1]

Anglia folks advising that trains in the Cromer area to remain suspended until ~1400hrs today due to 40 unsafe conifers near the track.

First trains in the Anglia area will run as ECS route proving trains.

Was like going through a train wash as we passed them at 13:10 yesterday. We where the last but one to go by before they fell trapping us on the Northern part of the line for the next 8 hours!!!

 

[Sheepy1209]

Try telling anyone stuck in the Warrington area yesterday that the motorway was coping with the weather - Thelwall viaduct shut most of the day, tree on the carriageway near Stafford, plus the usual day-to-day hold-ups.

I'd travelled down to Wolverhampton on business on the Wednesday - by train - and was due to return to Preston from Birmingham International at 17:53 on the Thursday. At the time I travelled down the storm was expected but there were no specific warnings not to travel.

On the Thursday, the day started with general warnings about the weather, but VTWC specifically stated that they would be running a normal timetable but with delays due to speed restrictions. They were also advising people not to travel, and relaxing ticket validity so they knew it was going to be bad.

It was a bit of a mixed message - 'normal timetable' and 'do not travel'. I don't think that was intended, but at 8am when I first looked it didn't read like they were expecting chaos.

Personally I just kept an eye out for updates and by lunchtime when it was clear things were getting worse decided to book a hire car and drive instead. Cop out I know, not an option available to everybody, and I had to go via the M1 / M62 so it was a long journey, but at least I got home in a reasonable time.

I could have cancelled the trip altogether on the Tuesday, but the warnings weren't yet precise enough - and there was no guarantee of a ticket refund at that point, what if the weather had taken a different turn?

The thing for me is that I've spent most of the last year travelling extensively throughout Great Britain, and this is the first time I have encountered anything more than a few minutes' delay or some missing seat reservations. Meanwhile on the roads every journey involves an hour's padding to allow for the inevitable delays.

 

[MadCommuter]

Sinetimes the forecasts can be wrong. My local forecast was for heavy snow for 4 hours yesterday morning. We had heavy snow for less than an hour.

The railway industry has to factor this in too, or they will face critics by cancelling everything and then the bad weather doesn't arrive. It's a fine balance and it would seem most people managed to complete their journeys and no injuries reported related to the railway. That surely is the most important aspect.

I look forward to the same debate when the next storm hits.

 

[Antman]

Network Rail are responsible for the monitors/screens/live departure boards.

I am sure you are not suggesting GTR took a 'not my job mate' attitude to getting some useful information to its customers.

So what went wrong at Kings Cross?

Did GTR not have an agreed plan with Network Rail about what information should be given over the station PA and departure boards?

Did GTR not consider that their own website and app showing trains leaving on time might be misleading?

Why were all the GTR staff and managers stood behind the closed barriers trying to use a broken loud hailer to communicate?

Compared to St Pancras at exactly the same time, where barriers had been set up to manage the expected crowds and staff and managers were out front answering questions and directing people.

 

[tankmc]

Which staff member was that? Was he young-ish or possibly late 20's to early 30s. average height. wears glasses. clean shaven. dark hair (not blonde).

I indeed was one of the passengers crowded around the staff members listening to his radio like a wireless.

The staff themselves at Cambridge were helpful but it was the lack of information that was making people angry. There was a huge crowd outside the staff office with a staff member just telling the person at the front information rather than getting on the PA to let the whole station know. Why not put on the station boards the situation for new people arriving at the station?

I know people have said they don't use the PA because there is no information. Well, tell passengers that. Even just a PA saying "We are working to prove a bus/train still, and we have yet to receive any new information."

We were told to go outside for taxis in the end but there was no organisation again. The staff were helpful and kept their spirits up but with a large number of people, they really needed some sort of queuing systems and contingency plan for these sort of scenarios. It was a bit of a free for all with taxis been sporadic, which is not the train companies falt.

I eventually got home at 10:30 last night in a taxi.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sinetimes the forecasts can be wrong. My local forecast was for heavy snow for 4 hours yesterday morning. We had heavy snow for less than an hour.

The railway industry has to factor this in too, or they will face critics by cancelling everything and then the bad weather doesn't arrive. It's a fine balance and it would seem most people managed to complete their journeys and no injuries reported related to the railway. That surely is the most important aspect.

I look forward to the same debate when the next storm hits.

Agree. It wasn't that long ago that Heathrow airport reduced capacity because of forecast snow. The snow never arrived so there was no need. They got criticised. If they hadn't and the snow had arrived they would be criticised. Working to a forecast is hard. Having a plan when it goes wrong is key. I used to in my earlier career be going around with a chainsaw after such weather. Normal question how long will it take? Normally used to estimate and double it. Often tempted to give "but I can get it done much quicker if I could get on with the job rather than answering how long will it take questions"

 

[talldave]

For me, the communication breakdown was internet sites. NRE was falling over with a non working journey planner and Southeastern's site was totally dead. In view of how much information these sites can get out to a large number of people it would be good to see them better capable of handling heavier loading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The advice from some operators was "don't travel" but not everybody has that luxury.
Some trains were running, so I would expect the PA to broadcast information about those trains. Things like "The next train on platform 4 will depart in approximately 10 minutes. It will be calling at Peterbourgh and Grantham only.", "There are no trains to Cambridge expected for at least an hour." and "The train now standing on platform 0 is the 17:05 service to Potters Bar, calling at X, Y and Z. Passengers for R should board this train and change at S" (assuming those were correct statements).

Crossing over with the thread about auto-PA systems, this is where something like Aviavox would be more useful than the regular automatic PA, because it can be set to speak *any* message rather than just pre-programmed ones. Yes, a person could do it, but that's one person fewer on the ground.

 

[tankmc]

Crossing over with the thread about auto-PA systems, this is where something like Aviavox would be more useful than the regular automatic PA, because it can be set to speak *any* message rather than just pre-programmed ones. Yes, a person could do it, but that's one person fewer on the ground.

Yes, it's one person less on the ground but that one person will be helping a much larger number of passengers. Also coming from a real person in times like this is more reassuring I feel than a computer generated voice. The one at Kings Cross St Pancras Underground drives me up the wall.

 

[arb]

Which staff member was that? Was he young-ish or possibly late 20's to early 30s. average height. wears glasses. clean shaven. dark hair (not blonde).

I would have put him a bit older, maybe mid-30s. But definitely not "old". It was hard to be sure because he was so well wrapped up in big warm clothes! Yes to average height and clean shaven. I don't remember glasses but am not sure now. He was wearing a hat so no idea about hair colour.

If it helps, he was outside the little enclosed box-shaped information point where platforms 4/5/6 all converge, near the bottom of the steps from the footbridge. I'll keep an eye out around the station and see if I spot him again.

 

[jon0844]

Network Rail are responsible for the monitors/screens/live departure boards.

It would be beneficial for Network Rail to have an agreed process by which others could get access to a portion of the display setup, and access a PA to relay information that overrides the usual announcements, safety warnings etc.

 

[jon0844]

For me, the communication breakdown was internet sites. NRE was falling over with a non working journey planner and Southeastern's site was totally dead. In view of how much information these sites can get out to a large number of people it would be good to see them better capable of handling heavier loading.

This was meant to be resolved over ten years ago! Other incidents that crashed websites resulted in some sites either switching to a bare bones (almost text only) website to relay information, or - ideally - hosting that can cope with spikes in demand.

Did GTR switch to an emergency site or plod along as normal? I didn't check. If that, or other Govia sites, fell over then all of this should be investigated. The problem is, most people would think it was just one day and not a major problem - but these problems are warning signs for if something far bigger and more serious ever happens in the future.

Clearly some people had information, but getting it to staff and customers (via the web) is a problem. A problem if staff can't access a PA, or have access to a loud, working, bullhorn.

With the fancy tablets many staff now have, I'd have thought they'd have a great source of information - but was this also affected in the same way as the end-users were given data that was incorrect?

(I realise this is perhaps a bit too much directed at one company, and would extend the same comments about the others too).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it's one person less on the ground but that one person will be helping a much larger number of passengers. Also coming from a real person in times like this is more reassuring I feel than a computer generated voice. The one at Kings Cross St Pancras Underground drives me up the wall.

To be fair Aviavox grates a bit, but not for reasons of poor quality (and I agree the KXSP one is very poor quality) but because it has a Dutch accent as it was recorded by one of the Schiphol manual announcers (who I think is still there, she is the one who likes to "proceed to offload your luggage" if you're late). I wish they'd rerecord[1] the British English version with a proper English accent - they use native speakers for all the others.

It is however very clear.

[1] It's sort of synthesized, but uses recordings of phonemes and whacks them together to make words, if it doesn't have the relevant phonemes it guesses and sends the word for review in their offices.

 

[cuccir]

For me, the communication breakdown was internet sites. NRE was falling over with a non working journey planner and Southeastern's site was totally dead. In view of how much information these sites can get out to a large number of people it would be good to see them better capable of handling heavier loading.

It's interesting that pre-emptive changes to timetables are made but not to websites.

I'm no techy, so maybe this is all nonsense, but perhaps on days where forecasted weather is so poor a future approach could incorporate Nat Rail replacing their site with a simpler, graphic and advert-low version that carries only live travel information? Divert all resources to keeping this page running and for the day and let the other links and pages time out for the period? Would be interesting to know if that's possible!

 

[jon0844]

[1] It's sort of synthesized, but uses recordings of phonemes and whacks them together to make words, if it doesn't have the relevant phonemes it guesses and sends the word for review in their offices.

TomTom and Google have very clear voices for text-to-speech. I think TomTom has a simulator on its website where you can type phrases - so if it's still there and you can find it, you can type in some rail-like announcements to see how they sound.

(They'll sound a LOT better than the one used for the Underground).

 

[infobleep]

Everyone was struggling to keep up with what was happening today. My initial point was to say I was disappointed with people getting angry at the front line staff. Even on here fellow posters are kicking off about announcements or lack of them etc. The boots on the ground probably had as little idea what was going on as the customers. I had a similar experience in my job. I'm not sure the customers who were upset would be any happier getting announcements saying "We don't have a clue what is going on". I had a military welfare officer on the phone today who wouldn't get off the phone until I gave him answers. The people I needed answers from were out on the road trying to work out what was going on. In the end I had to say I can't give you answers and I can't get hold of anyone who can. We live in a very immediate society that expects answers to everything right away. It is not always possible.

Well if you said I can't give you the answers then well done to you for doing so.

May point was about giving out false information.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With the fancy tablets many staff now have, I'd have thought they'd have a great source of information - but was this also affected in the same way as the end-users were given data that was incorrect?

If it runs off the same server as the website then it would probably have been down as well. Don't know if the system gives priority to the staff tablets.

Is 50mph the national ESR for any location where there could be debris on the line?

 

[philjo]

One question on a frequent service why do the keep headcodes. Example in the evening a Moorgate - WGC was listed as running 1 hour late? But considering the frequency why wasn't it turned into the one 1 hour later on-time. I suspect whatever the answer to this question it will upset someone. I am just interested why. Can understand on intercity service but not so much on high frequency services with the same calling pattern where "delayed" clutters up the departure boards. Scotrail only used to have services if knew were running on the departure boards. It worked well

FCC used to have the screens operating in emergency mode when there was disruption that only listed any trains that were actually running.

Last night at Hitchin it seemed to have a mix of trains that were running- e.g. it listed 2 Royston services that normally go to Cambridge but also showed several others that said Delayed.
several other trains that did call at Hitchin, the screens and auto announcements said it was not due to stop there.
At Stevenage platform 3 the screens were showing that the train I was on (GN service to Peterborough) was the VTEC service to Leeds !

I found it very had to work out from the GN website/journeycheck what was actually running before I left the office - RTT helped to some extent to show that some trains were still moving.
I also got my usual daily email alert at 15:45 saying there was "no disruption!" (it was set up back in FCC days so maybe GTR don't always update the info to this system properly but it does normally say if a specific service is cancelled or short-formed.)

GTR email - received 15:45
There is no disruption reported at this time affecting services between Potters Bar and Hitchin.

Further Information is available at http://www.thameslinkrailway.com or http://www.greatnorthernrail.com.

This message included information available at the time of distribution.

 

[45107]

After wading through several unneccesary question marks and exclamation points (you only need to use one per sentence, any more and you start to look ridiculous, nine is rather over the top), and ignoring the rhetorical questions, I've found nothing except you jumping to a rather stretched conclusion. I asked a genuine question, and didn't once say that the railway was at fault. I was just surprised that things went tits up to the extent that they did.

Thanks to the other posters for your helpful answers

As I see it, the genuine question you asked was why the British Rail network fails to cope with bad weather when other countries do.

My experience is that other countries suffer similar problems to us. (I have no experience of Scandinavia, so can only go on personal experiences).
As an example, the Dutch network was heavily affected yesterday with lots of cancellations due to the storm. NS issued a not to travel/expect disruption alert on Wednesday evening.

The disruption yesterday was probably one of the worst since storms in autumn 2001. My recollection is that there were 2 bad days, with the British network effectively shutting down on the Monday (I am happy for someone to correct me on this or highlight more recent ones - possibly the London bombings as this had a major affect on the London terminals that day).
That weekend I was attempting to travel from Rotterdam to Munich, departing about 0830 on Sunday with planned arrival of 1830. The journey was a nightmare due to high winds and trees on the line in various places on both the Dutch and German networks, with an eventual arrival of 0300 on the Monday morning.
The German and Dutch networks suffer in snow as well. December 2009 - when the Channel Tunnel was shut (snow), Dutch network closed down for a day or December 2010 - delayed 3 hours on a 2 hour journey from Munich to Salzburg, again a result of snow (in an area that gets a lot of it).

One of the reasons that things went so bad yesterday was due to the number of obstructions on the line(s) that needed removing. The unfortunate thing is that staff are never in the right place at the right time, or are dealing with another incident. Staffing levels in the rail industry are just about adequate for normal operation, but when there is disruption on this scale they become stretched.
Other issues faced were damaged station buildings, interruptions to power supplies (UK power as opposed to OLE), trees falling onto the overheads disabling electric traction.
TOCs put in contingency plans when these happen, but with all the will in the world they are not a 2 minute job to implement.
Of course yesterday, plans were put in but then the 'open' sections of line were hit by more debris throwing these into disarray and it becomes a creeping death scenario.

 

[jon0844]

GTR has managed to implement the removal of all services and then only post the running ones (like FCC did in the latter days), but perhaps the person(s) who do that weren't available or something? At midday, I was seeing a number of delayed trains from early in the morning. It meant that to get to WGC from Hatfield, the 1st and 2nd trains were clearly not running and it was whatever showed as 3rd that was real.

Nice and confusing for some passengers and a nice way to run things (not). I know that sounds melodramatic, but not everyone is an expert and can see what's going on. If you see 1 and 2 delayed, you'd hardly expect the third in the list to be the next train and, in this case, on time.

Real time info is great until it goes wrong. As I found yesterday when I saw 6 minutes for my bus, only to see it pass 4 minutes early. The reason being some mistiming at the server end that gave a false estimate. Sure, I can let it slide, but I do think many transport operators fail miserably on the IT side of things. TfL seems to do a far better job (perhaps not so much with LO but I guess that's because it's a normal rail service).

If staff are affected by busy loads on websites causing problems for a TOC, then why isn't that information fed from another server?

My own site wouldn't cope with a huge surge in traffic, but it doesn't need to. If it goes down, or dead slow, then so be it. There's no excuse for a transport operator, where road, air, rail or sea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TomTom and Google have very clear voices for text-to-speech. I think TomTom has a simulator on its website where you can type phrases - so if it's still there and you can find it, you can type in some rail-like announcements to see how they sound.

(They'll sound a LOT better than the one used for the Underground).

Just mocked one up using the supplied TTS voice on a Mac and it sounded decent enough - a *bit* odd but would certainly work.