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Super Thursday - Elections 2021

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DynamicSpirit

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These elections aren't actually that bad outside of a rather concentrated area of the northeast. Two mayors have gone to Labour, the position in Wales is better and the position in Scotland is only slightly worse, even with our own toxic leader only being replaced two months before polling day. There's really no reason for Labour to buy into the dire conclusions the press had already drawn before the votes were even cast. In addition, most of the blame still lies with a combination of the previous toxic leadership and the difficulty of changing anybody's mind or mounting an effective campaign in Covid times.

I think in assessing how good or bad the elections are for Labour, you need to bear in mind when these seats/mayors were last contested. Because we have two sets of elections in one, some were last elected on 5 May 2016, some on 4 May 2017. You can see the approximate state of the parties (as worked out from opinion polls) on those dates here. In 2016, Labour was 4% behind the Tories. In 2017, Labour was a massive 18% behind the Tories. What that means is that, even if these results had produced no net change between Labour and the Tories, that would still indicate the Tories are substantially ahead of Labour and on course to win a general election massively, if it were held today. In fact, in England (which is where nearly 90% of the population lives), Labour lost over 300 councillors, and the Tories gained over 200. In Wales, Labour improved a little bit, and in Scotland they stayed about the same. In other words, Labour has on aggregate gone backwards when compared against one moderately bad year and one absolutely terrible year. I think I'd venture to disagree about this being 'actually not that bad outside of a rather concentrated area of the northeast'.
 
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tommy2215

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Mostly you are right. But the Bristol comment needs a bit more explanation. Bristol itself absolutely (though it looks possible the council may go Green based on the results current being announced!),
That's great to see, not a Green supporter but definitely a fan of small parties breaking through!
but the area around Bristol (South Gloucestershire & Bath and North East Somerset) is typically Tory or Lib Dem so for Labour to win the WECA mayorship is a pretty big deal. Especially considering North East Somerst is Rees-Moggs Westminster seat.
That's true, and winning the mayoralty is a big achievement for Labour. Although you don't get second preferences in general elections of course.
 

Typhoon

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This whole cycle of resigning out of a sense of guilt when a single election doesn't go very well has never done Labour any favours either. If Milliband had hung around for a year after 2015 for example we could have had some intelligent discussions about where the party was going, and avoided the shambles we ended up with. Indeed, the whole country would probably have been better off if he'd stayed in post through the Brexit referendum.
You are right. Both parties do it time and time again. If one of the 'old guard' had been given a caretaker roll in 2010, while Labour regrouped, saw what the young Turks were capable of, before stepping aside.
Milliband might well have grown into the job, a bit more confidence at the dispatch box - he didn't make that many gaffs, sort out his shadow cabinet. He might have fared quite well against May. The Tories tried Hague then Duncan Smith then Howard. All ditched at the first opportunity. Its like a League 2 team that kicks its manager out every 3 months because they are not in the top six; maybe if the manager had been able to work with the players for rather longer it would start to move up the table.

This time the hounds are out within months, months during which our Prime Minister has had the good fortune to trip over a crock of gold when he wasn't looking where he was going. Anyone in Labour that thinks that an 80 seat majority is going to be wiped out in no time is misguided. We need a period of normality so Labour can hold the government to account over faulty PPE, Test and Trace, Bounce Back loans that went to fraudsters, the exam grades fiasco and countless other disasters. Shadow ministers need to be doing their research so that they can tackle their opposite number. Boris bluffs his way out of it, the others are not so talented (and don't know Ancient Greek).

If there was an outstanding candidate to switch to then I'd say go for it, but as it is we'd probably end up with another pointless battle of left vs centrist non-entities. Worst case we might even actually end up with Long-Bailey
Exactly, these potential leaders need to show leadership potential first, and not just for a month or so but over an extended period. Yes, Buggins turn, Long Bailey sooner or later if they keep changing leaders.

I think you may be a bit premature about Anneliese Dodds not being scapegoated (unfairly imo) with Rachel Reeves tipped to replace her.
I listed because I thought they ought to stay in place. Dodds, too early. Difficult to oppose Sunak while he is throwing money around like a medieval despot. She is relatively inexperienced as an MP. If she is replaced, Reeves is as good as anyone, she has the experience in finance and at Westminster
 
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Mostly you are right. But the Bristol comment needs a bit more explanation. Bristol itself absolutely (though it looks possible the council may go Green based on the results current being announced!), but the area around Bristol (South Gloucestershire & Bath and North East Somerset) is typically Tory or Lib Dem so for Labour to win the WECA mayorship is a pretty big deal. Especially considering North East Somerst is Rees-Moggs Westminster seat.

Bristol has gone 24 a-piece, with 13 Green GAINS. I wonder what Marvin Rees does now; knowing he was Re-Elected on Thursday, but has seen his administration’s majority gone!
 

takno

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I think in assessing how good or bad the elections are for Labour, you need to bear in mind when these seats/mayors were last contested. Because we have two sets of elections in one, some were last elected on 5 May 2016, some on 4 May 2017. You can see the approximate state of the parties (as worked out from opinion polls) on those dates here. In 2016, Labour was 4% behind the Tories. In 2017, Labour was a massive 18% behind the Tories. What that means is that, even if these results had produced no net change between Labour and the Tories, that would still indicate the Tories are substantially ahead of Labour and on course to win a general election massively, if it were held today. In fact, in England (which is where nearly 90% of the population lives), Labour lost over 300 councillors, and the Tories gained over 200. In Wales, Labour improved a little bit, and in Scotland they stayed about the same. In other words, Labour has on aggregate gone backwards when compared against one moderately bad year and one absolutely terrible year. I think I'd venture to disagree about this being 'actually not that bad outside of a rather concentrated area of the northeast'.
If we're judging Starmer we've got to compare his performance to Labour's performance before he arrived, which was more than 20 points in the polls. A 4 point deficit might sound like a bad starting point which he should be able to improve on, but realistically it was one of Labour's best positions between 2016 and early 2020. He could have recovered half the deficit and still dropped seats on that figure.

More importantly, I was going more on the BBC's analysis of the voting patterns, rather than the raw number of councillors nationally. A lot of important areas of the country weren't actually in contention at all, and in a lot of others Labour's vote held up just fine and saw some modest gains. The biggest losses were fairly concentrated in a relatively small number of constituencies.

Another vital factor is that lots of council seats were tipped in areas that had a fairly big UKIP vote last time out. Those votes have transferred to Boris this time round, but at a national level that had already largely happened, so it's just a case of the local elections catching up with two year old facts on the ground. Those votes simply aren't available to Labour right now, although they might be back in play in five years when Brexit is over as an issue and Teeside is still decaying.

If there had been elections in 2020 Labour would have tanked then due to the UKIP effect. Starmer would have been in post for about 6 weeks and wouldn't have got much of the blame. The elections happening this year would then have been a lot rosier, and everybody would have been lauding him as a genius.

Tl;dr - It's a council election. They're weird, and you've got to be really careful what conclusions you draw and why
 

tommy2215

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More importantly, I was going more on the BBC's analysis of the voting patterns, rather than the raw number of councillors nationally. A lot of important areas of the country weren't actually in contention at all
Every single part of England voted on Thursday.

and in a lot of others Labour's vote held up just fine and saw some modest gains. The biggest losses were fairly concentrated in a relatively small number of constituencies.
The North East, North West (outside GM and Liverpool), almost the entire East and West Midlands, Essex and quite a few other Southern areas is most definitely not a 'small number of constituencies'. Losing more than 300 councillors, 8 councils and 6-7 PCCs net is not small.
so it's just a case of the local elections catching up with two year old facts on the ground.
So in other words, showing Labour have made absolutely no progress in those areas they lost and need to win back.
Those votes simply aren't available to Labour right now, although they might be back in play in five years when Brexit is over as an issue and Teeside is still decaying.
Its becoming clearer and clearer that the party realignment Brexit caused is a permanent thing, and that values are more important than policy now.
 
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37424

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Every single part of England voted on Thursday.


The North East, North West (outside GM and Liverpool), almost the entire East and West Midlands, Essex and quite a few other Southern areas is most definitely not a 'small number of constituencies'. Losing more than 300 councillors, 8 councils and 6-7 PCCs net is not small.

So in other words, showing Labour have made absolutely no progress in those areas they lost and need to win back.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that the party realignment Brexit caused is a permanent thing, and that values is more important than policy now.
There is also long Corbyn, there is no way I will vote for a party that that was stupid enough to elect Corbyn as leader, and that will likely go on for a considerable time. Starmer needs to set out what the main policies at national level will be as at the moment we don't really know what Starmer Labour stands for.
 

birchesgreen

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Interesting that Labour have gained Chipping Norton council, interesting realignments going on across the country.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Tracy Brabin has now been elected as mayor of West Yorkshire - which means a by-election in Batley and Spen.

2019 result:

42.7% Labour
36.0% Conservative
12.2% An Independent who - as far as I can tell on a quick google - seems to be basically UKIP-ish.
4.7% LibDems
3.2% Brexit party
1.3% Green

It seems a fair guess that the Brexit party voters will mostly head Tory. If the UKIP-ish independent voters do too, then it's hard to see how Labour can keep the seat :(
 

tommy2215

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Interesting that Labour have gained Chipping Norton council, interesting realignments going on across the country.
Definitely, and I expect that in the coming years the realignments will only get stronger, rather than everywhere reverting to pre-Brexit allegiances.

Tracy Brabin has now been elected as mayor of West Yorkshire - which means a by-election in Batley and Spen.

2019 result:

42.7% Labour
36.0% Conservative
12.2% An Independent who - as far as I can tell on a quick google - seems to be basically UKIP-ish.
4.7% LibDems
3.2% Brexit party
1.3% Green

It seems a fair guess that the Brexit party voters will mostly head Tory. If the UKIP-ish independent voters do too, then it's hard to see how Labour can keep the seat :(
Especially if the by election is held just after June 21st!
 

takno

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Every single part of England voted on Thursday.


The North East, North West (outside GM and Liverpool), almost the entire East and West Midlands, Essex and quite a few other Southern areas is most definitely not a 'small number of constituencies'. Losing more than 300 councillors, 8 councils and 6-7 PCCs net is not small.

So in other words, showing Labour have made absolutely no progress in those areas they lost and need to win back.

Its becoming clearer and clearer that the party realignment Brexit caused is a permanent thing, and that values is more important than policy now.
Almost everywhere appears to have voted yesterday, but large swathes of England didn't vote for a council, so their votes aren't represented in numbers of councillors. Given that those swathes that didn't vote for a include Birmingham and London where the metropolitan elite live, it's almost inevitable that the figures in terms of councillors will be exaggerated.

Whether the Brexit realignment is permanent or not is beside the point. The point is that it's already baked at a national level, and this is just local elections catching up.

Labour aren't in a great place right now, but they are in a better place than they were a year ago, and these elections reflect that. It's obviously worth Labour having a long think about who they want to represent, and how to appeal to them, but being panicked into changing course isn't helpful.

At the end of the day it's sad to see Labour and some of their traditional heartlands falling out of love, but places like Teeside seem to have moved even further from traditional labour values than Labour has, and if Labour move too much to regain them they will lose out elsewhere.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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In all the comment that I've read in the media and on the forum I've seen barely a mention (in fact, no mention) of the appalling turnout - slightly up in Wales, I think but negligible. Have we come to accept this as normal now?
I'm thinking of the General Election turnout as well as last Thursday. Whether it appealed to you or not, the Labour Manifesto and the Leader at the time in 2017 did encourage many young people to vote for the first time, not just talking of 18 year olds...I knew and was aware of many.
So, do we just accept that the Government will be elected on about two-thirds of the population and local councils about one-third?
 

37424

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Tracy Brabin has now been elected as mayor of West Yorkshire - which means a by-election in Batley and Spen.

2019 result:

42.7% Labour
36.0% Conservative
12.2% An Independent who - as far as I can tell on a quick google - seems to be basically UKIP-ish.
4.7% LibDems
3.2% Brexit party
1.3% Green

It seems a fair guess that the Brexit party voters will mostly head Tory. If the UKIP-ish independent voters do too, then it's hard to see how Labour can keep the seat :(
This is my constituency I certainly hope we get Labour out but I don't think it will happen actually
 

al78

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In all the comment that I've read in the media and on the forum I've seen barely a mention (in fact, no mention) of the appalling turnout - slightly up in Wales, I think but negligible. Have we come to accept this as normal now?
I'm thinking of the General Election turnout as well as last Thursday. Whether it appealed to you or not, the Labour Manifesto and the Leader at the time in 2017 did encourage many young people to vote for the first time, not just talking of 18 year olds...I knew and was aware of many.
So, do we just accept that the Government will be elected on about two-thirds of the population and local councils about one-third?
Until we implement compulsory voting, yes.

The problem is with a two party system, those who don't like either of the main parties may not see the point in voting. Firstly, their preferred party has no chance of winning. Secondly, voting for their preferred party makes it more likely one of the two main parties will gain power. Thirdly, especially in local elections, parties frequently gain power with a minority vote. This all leads to disillusionment and a why bother attitude. These are all problems with the FPTP system. Ultimately if you want much better participation, you need a system where everyone can feel their vote counts even if they are not voting for one of the main parties.
 

Butts

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In all the comment that I've read in the media and on the forum I've seen barely a mention (in fact, no mention) of the appalling turnout - slightly up in Wales, I think but negligible. Have we come to accept this as normal now?
I'm thinking of the General Election turnout as well as last Thursday. Whether it appealed to you or not, the Labour Manifesto and the Leader at the time in 2017 did encourage many young people to vote for the first time, not just talking of 18 year olds...I knew and was aware of many.
So, do we just accept that the Government will be elected on about two-thirds of the population and local councils about one-third?

Did you check the turnout figures in Scotland, for the Parliament they were above General Election turnouts in a lot of cases.

I'm glad you've come on - can you give some insight into The Liberal Democrats pathetic performance in Wales - 1 List Seat - just.

What excuses is Dodds coming out with ?
 

Snow1964

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Seems Bristol has 24 Greens and 24 Labour, so a tie for largest party

Here is Wiltshire, it sounds like the Conservative candidate for PCC (police and crime commissioner) is disqualified due to drink-driving offence. Count was scheduled for Monday and if he wins, then Wiltshire will need to vote again (I hope conservatives make him pay for costs of new election if required)
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Hello Butts! That is good news about Scotland then, I'll look at the figures later....is one of the reasons for that because there seemed to be one major issue dominating and people from both camps who are for/against a referendum made the effort to vote (including tactically from what I've read).
Re the liberals in Wales, without looking at the figures they have been falling off a cliff for sometime, I think they lost their last MP in 2015....and Kirsty Williams the long-standing AM didn't stand this time. They've been squeezed very hard, haven't seen one round here for some time. Others might know more....and of course the Lib Dems have little in common with traditional Welsh liberalism.
 

Butts

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Hello Butts! That is good news about Scotland then, I'll look at the figures later....is one of the reasons for that because there seemed to be one major issue dominating and people from both camps who are for/against a referendum made the effort to vote (including tactically from what I've read).
Re the liberals in Wales, without looking at the figures they have been falling off a cliff for sometime, I think they lost their last MP in 2015....and Kirsty Williams the long-standing AM didn't stand this time. They've been squeezed very hard, haven't seen one round here for some time. Others might know more....and of course the Lib Dems have little in common with traditional Welsh liberalism.

Hi AG,

Is Lembit Opik the solution ?
 

317 forever

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I have just been telephoned by a friend in the Stockport area who tells me the council is still under "No overall control". One particular ward, Heald Green, is a little different political party wise, as the Ratepayers Party (formed as long ago as 1927) has held all its three seats since time immeroriable and in yesterdays' local election, the incumbent Ratepayers Party candidate again polled far more votes than all the political parties combined.

There was only a single change to report in Stockport council, which was the Green Party took the South Reddish seat from the Labour Party.
That Green win gain left Labour 1 seat behind the LibDems there. The 5 Green gains in Sheffield have similarly lost Labour control of that council.
 

317 forever

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Oh God Angus Robertson is back as an MSP replacing Ruth Davidson in Edinburgh.

Starts pontificating about how the electorate have rejected Brexit et al..... whilst conveniently failing to mention he was rejected as an MP by the people of Moray in 2017 who sensibly opted for Douglas Ross the current Scottish Conservative Leader.
That reminds me. Although Douglas Ross has been elected as an MSP again, I have not heard anything to the effect of him leaving Westminster.
 

GusB

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That reminds me. Although Douglas Ross has been elected as an MSP again, I have not heard anything to the effect of him leaving Westminster.
I've no idea what Douglas "Three Jobs" Ross intends to do regarding his Westminster seat - I think he had intended to stand down, which would mean a by-election here within the next couple of months. For all his blustering, he didn't have the stones to put himself up for election in a constituency. He could either have gone for Moray where he holds the current Westminster seat, or if he was really brave he could have stood for Edinburgh Central where his predecessor was standing down.

Either way, the man is a complete muppet and isn't a patch on Robertson, who was a far better constituency MP than Ross could ever hope to be. Ross wasn't much good as a councillor either, to be honest.
 

317 forever

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Definitely, and I expect that in the coming years the realignments will only get stronger, rather than everywhere reverting to pre-Brexit allegiances.


Especially if the by election is held just after June 21st!
On a self-indulgent note, I wonder whether the by-election could be on July 29th? I shall be having a few days off work then, and was already seriously considering a short break in West Yorkshire anyway then.

That said, if it is held on June 24th that would be a touching tribute to Jo Cox, as this is the nearest Thursday to her birthday on June 22nd.
 

XAM2175

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For all his blustering, he didn't have the stones to put himself up for election in a constituency. He could either have gone for Moray where he holds the current Westminster seat, or if he was really brave he could have stood for Edinburgh Central where his predecessor was standing down.
Yes, particularly gutless. At least Sarwar made an effort.
 

Butts

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I've no idea what Douglas "Three Jobs" Ross intends to do regarding his Westminster seat - I think he had intended to stand down, which would mean a by-election here within the next couple of months. For all his blustering, he didn't have the stones to put himself up for election in a constituency. He could either have gone for Moray where he holds the current Westminster seat, or if he was really brave he could have stood for Edinburgh Central where his predecessor was standing down.

Either way, the man is a complete muppet and isn't a patch on Robertson, who was a far better constituency MP than Ross could ever hope to be. Ross wasn't much good as a councillor either, to be honest.

Surprising Robertson didn't stand in Moray then, where he was kicked out after 16 years as an MP in the 2017 Election ?
 

317 forever

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Surprising Robertson didn't stand in Moray then, where he was kicked out after 16 years as an MP in the 2017 Election ?
I just worry that he has been touted as a future First Minister. <( A preferable successor would be Kate Forbes.
 

daodao

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Labour aren't in a great place right now, but they are in a better place than they were a year ago, and these elections reflect that. It's obviously worth Labour having a long think about who they want to represent, and how to appeal to them, but being panicked into changing course isn't helpful.
Labour are still on the slide in much of England, generally to the Tories' benefit, although not everywhere - they gained 4 seats in less affluent parts of Trafford at the expense of the Tories. The knee jerk reaction of Starmer in reshuffling without taking time to reflect on the disastrous performance in Hartlepool and English local/PC elections was inept and poorly handled. Labour haven't yet reached rock bottom. The Tories are still on the rise in most of England and Wales.

Apart from this, and the disappearance of UKIP, to the net benefit of the Tories in the Senedd and the Greens in English local elections, there wasn't much change in the electoral map last Thursday.

The metropolitan policy-light humourless Brexit-hating knight goes down like a lead balloon in provincial England. At least Corbyn had ideas, and even though he isn't that bright, had excellent support from his intelligent shadow chancellor. Starmer clearly wanted to sack completely his dim-witted deputy, but bungled the attempt, and appears to have half-aborted his reshuffle, although his choice of Reeves as shadow chancellor seems sound.
 
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jfollows

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The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-voting-system-after-labour-mayoral-victories) reports that the government plans to change electoral law so that future mayoral elections use the "first past the post" system in place of the supplementary vote system currently used.

One outcome being that it makes it easier for a Conservative candidate to win in, say, London. Sadiq Khan won 'comfortably" in London this time round, but the contest would have been much closer under "first past the post".

As the article observes, a fragmented "left" means that many voters voted for other candidates as their first preference vote, with Sadiq Khan then as their second preference. Of course, the article doesn't credit the voters with intelligence to switch their voting patterns in the light of the electoral system used. It also observes that almost 5% of the ballots cast in this year's London mayoral election were rejected, mainly because voters had voted for too many candidates, so it would appear that a significant number of voters weren't able to complete the ballot properly, or chose not to for other reasons. I have previously complained to the Electoral Commission and others about the poor wording on the instructions for the postal vote for the supplementary vote system, to no avail.

For what it's worth, the change to the voting system is also planned for the elections for police and crime commissioners.

It looks as if the Conservative party is using its current large majority in parliament to prop up its future vote by changing the voting systems in its favour while it can.

Mayoral elections

Government to change English voting system after Labour mayoral victories

Switch to first past the post could make it easier for Conservatives to win future mayoral contests

Jim Waterson

Ministers are pressing ahead with changes to electoral law that could make it easier for Conservatives to win future mayoral elections, as Labour claimed 11 of the 13 posts being contested across England.

The UK home secretary, Priti Patel, has already unveiled plans to switch all future English mayoral elections from the existing supplementary vote system – in which the public ranks their two favourite candidates – to the first past the post system used in elections to the House of Commons.

Prof Tony Travers, of the London School of Economics, said analysis of Thursday’s polls suggested this change could open a potential route to victory for the Tories in cities such as London.

“It’s likely that first past the post would make it somewhat easier for the Conservatives to win if they could come up with a really good candidate,” he said.

Labour’s Sadiq Khan won the London mayoral contest comfortably against his Conservative rival, Shaun Bailey, once voters’ second preferences were taken into account. But Khan beat Bailey by only 40% to 35% on first preference votes, as some leftwing former Labour voters shifted to the Greens and other smaller parties.

Travers said Labour faced the joint challenge of finding a message that lets them take on the Conservatives at a national level while also stopping leftwing voters in major cities moving to the Greens.

“We’re back to the usual problem of the fragmentation of the left, while the centre-right vote is much better at holding itself together,” he said.

Despite Labour’s dominance in London, there are signs that the decades-long Conservative decline in the capital may have been arrested or gone into reverse. In some areas of the capital, Bailey outperformed Khan on first-preference votes, while the Tories have also been buoyed by growing support from Hindu and Sikh communities.

The government will have to pass fresh legislation to change the voting system, which would also affect elections for police and crime commissioners. Labour has pledged to oppose the changes but the Conservatives have a large majority in the Commons and the party is expected to rely on a vague manifesto commitment to the first past the post system as a justification to push it through the Lords.

Although Labour won most mayoral elections across England easily – with Andy Burnham receiving a landslide 67% of votes in Greater Manchester – under the new voting system it would be likely to lose others such as the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough mayoralty.

There is evidence that voters are confused by the use of the supplementary vote system. Almost 5% of ballots cast in this year’s mayor of London election were rejected, mainly because voters had voted for too many candidates.

Conservative candidates won two of the mayoralties that held elections on Thursday: Andy Street in the West Midlands and Ben Houchen with a landslide in Tees Valley.

Street and Houchen narrowly won against the odds in traditional Labour-voting areas when their positions were first contested in 2017. However, this week both candidates were reelected with substantially increased majorities, having trumpeted their ability to win funds for their local area from a central Tory government in Westminster.

Elsewhere, the incumbent Labour mayors Steve Rotheram, Marvin Rees, Norma Redfearn, Paul Dennett and Ros Jones retained their respective roles in the Liverpool city region, Bristol, North Tyneside, Salford and Doncaster respectively. The party’s Tracy Brabin also won the first-ever West Yorkshire mayoral contest.
 
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Bantamzen

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I think the "Labour disaster" narrative is being driven a lot by the right wing press and latched onto by various folk who have axes to grind. I'm not sure why Hartlepool was a shock result, Labour only won last time because the right wing vote was split. Not saying it was a good night for the party but the doom and gloom is a bit OTT especially considering the strange conditions of the country over the last year.
Hartlepool was a shock because this was once a Labour stronghold, and the more Labour lose the more difficult it will become to mount a challenge at the next GE. This isn't being driven by the right wing press, it is being driven by voters see a Labour party that not only doesn't seem to want to represent them, but looks somewhat down on them.

I'm sure some Labour supporters will blame Brexit (especially in Hartlepool), but as has become the 21st century Labour party's modus operandi they won't see themselves to blame in losing support, it will be every one else's fault. And this is the problem that Labour have to tackle, or I fear the Etonians will be settling for many more years.

In relative terms that’s pretty poor. The Conservatives have been in power for a while now, opposition parties should be welcoming droves of disaffected voters.
That's often how it happens, sadly Labour aren't seeing it that way yet.
 
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