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Swanage Railway announce 2023 Wareham service

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Dai Corner

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I daresay that if the Swanage were subsidised to run the service like any TOC, prices could be brought more in line with normal fares elsewhere and passenger usage with the rest of the network could be grown substantially.
Would you want them to use steam, heritage diesel, heritage stock, volunteer traincrew, signallers and station staff?

Good luck resourcing the 0600 off Swanage on a frosty February morning if you did.
 
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yorksrob

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Would you want them to use steam, heritage diesel, heritage stock, volunteer traincrew, signallers and station staff?

Good luck resourcing the 0600 off Swanage on a frosty February morning if you did.

The current DMU's would suffice perfectly.

In terms of staffing, subsidy of ordinary passenger services enables day long timetables but why not for the Swanage Railway.

In this scenario, the railway would be a TOC running passenger services with subsidy like any other. It just so happens that it would own its own infrastructure, and would run a number of non-subsidised services.
 

Titfield

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Would you want them to use steam, heritage diesel, heritage stock, volunteer traincrew, signallers and station staff?

Good luck resourcing the 0600 off Swanage on a frosty February morning if you did.

The reality is that Swanage Railway has not got the organisation and infrastructure to operate such a service. The Dft would have to appoint a TOC to operate the service and carefully work out a way for both to work together.
 

yorksrob

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The reality is that Swanage Railway has not got the organisation and infrastructure to operate such a service. The Dft would have to appoint a TOC to operate the service and carefully work out a way for both to work together.

I don't know the in's and out's of the management, however they clearly seem to be able to run these trains, (more competently than many of our actual TOC's, judging by the lack of cancellations etc). Perhaps they should take over TPE !

The issue appears to be cost, and a proper public service subsidy would address that.
 

Mainline421

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But that is the first down train the morning. Based on the 2017 trial the 3 later down trains carry very few passengers indeed. The unanswerable question (unless a survey has been carried out) is how many of those passengers have only travelled from Wareham (ie new business) and would not have travelled from any other station eg. Norden.
If a passenger would have joined at Norden then the only revenue attributable to the Wareham service is the difference between the Wareham fare and the Norden fare.

The other question is how many of those were PRIVs (quite a few were seen on the 2017 trial) or Members of the Swanage Railway Trust travelling free or at reduced fare or kids travelling for £1.
The 13:05 ex Wareham was well loaded on Wednesday.
 

Titfield

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I don't know the in's and out's of the management, however they clearly seem to be able to run these trains, (more competently than many of our actual TOC's, judging by the lack of cancellations etc). Perhaps they should take over TPE !

The issue appears to be cost, and a proper public service subsidy would address that.

The Wareham service is operated by West Coast Railways using WCR drivers but Swanage Railway Company guards, travelling ticket inspectors etc. It is a one crew day.

Recruiting drivers (and all that entails) would be both challenging and costly.
 

Dai Corner

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The Wareham service is operated by West Coast Railways using WCR drivers but Swanage Railway Company guards, travelling ticket inspectors etc. It is a one crew day.

Recruiting drivers (and all that entails) would be both challenging and costly.
This should really be in the Speculative section, but if the Government ever decided to (re) introduce a service on the branch I think the only sensible way to do it would be with SWR traincrew and trains. Maybe let the heritage trains out to play on weekends and Bank Holidays, route conducted on the main line if desired.
 
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yorksrob

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The Wareham service is operated by West Coast Railways using WCR drivers but Swanage Railway Company guards, travelling ticket inspectors etc. It is a one crew day.

Recruiting drivers (and all that entails) would be both challenging and costly.

It would no doubt be, but it seems churlish to automatically assume the Swanage Railway incapable, when in reality it's service to the national network is already more reliable than that of various currently subsidised TOC's.
 

Dai Corner

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It would no doubt be, but it seems churlish to automatically assume the Swanage Railway incapable, when in reality it's service to the national network is already more reliable than that of various currently subsidised TOC's.
I dare say that if TOC trains only trundled up and down a branch line at 20mph 90 days a year and TOC drivers weren't in dispute with the Government they'd be just as reliable.
 

yorksrob

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I dare say that if TOC trains only trundled up and down a branch line at 20mph 90 days a year and TOC drivers weren't in dispute with them they'd be just as reliable.

Well indeed, but lets face it, under any arrangement, the Swanage Railway isn't going to be a sprawling GTR style network.
 

zwk500

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I don't know the in's and out's of the management, however they clearly seem to be able to run these trains, (more competently than many of our actual TOC's, judging by the lack of cancellations etc). Perhaps they should take over TPE !

The issue appears to be cost, and a proper public service subsidy would address that.
Having a TOC license is a completely different kettle of fish to a heritage operation, hence why nearly all Heritage lines that operate over NR tracks use a Charter TOC license (the exceptions are the NYMR which has it's own and very limited TOC license and the North Norfolk, who operate under the NYMR's license). It looks from RTT that here the Swanage Railway is operating under West Coast's license.

The subsidy required to support the Swanage Railway to have it's own TOC license would be immense. However, WCRC could bid for the paths on the SR's behalf (they have several other WTT slots, after all). However if you wanted these all-day swanage services to be part of e.g. Delay Repay, you'd need major changes to WCRC's licenses. None of this is insurmountable, but the question is whether or not the costs involved in bringing down the fares bring a material benefit to Swanage as a town or UK generally, and isn't purely subsidising bashers.
 

yorksrob

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Having a TOC license is a completely different kettle of fish to a heritage operation, hence why nearly all Heritage lines that operate over NR tracks use a Charter TOC license (the exceptions are the NYMR which has it's own and very limited TOC license and the North Norfolk, who operate under the NYMR's license). It looks from RTT that here the Swanage Railway is operating under West Coast's license.

The subsidy required to support the Swanage Railway to have it's own TOC license would be immense. However, WCRC could bid for the paths on the SR's behalf (they have several other WTT slots, after all). However if you wanted these all-day swanage services to be part of e.g. Delay Repay, you'd need major changes to WCRC's licenses. None of this is insurmountable, but the question is whether or not the costs involved in bringing down the fares bring a material benefit to Swanage as a town or UK generally, and isn't purely subsidising bashers.

I confess to being fairly flippant. I don't expect the Swanage Railway to be subsidised to the extent of a TOC, nor do I expect it to be held to the same requirements.

Nevertheless, with a bit of subsidy/coordinations on railcards and fares etc, a decent way could be found to keep Swanage operating to the National network.
 

zwk500

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I confess to being fairly flippant. I don't expect the Swanage Railway to be subsidised to the extent of a TOC, nor do I expect it to be held to the same requirements.

Nevertheless, with a bit of subsidy/coordinations on railcards and fares etc, a decent way could be found to keep Swanage operating to the National network.
It depends what you want - the heritage service for tourists is simple enough to keep going with grants to the charity foundation, there's various local tourist or heritage funds that can cover things to allow the SR to focus it's money on the bit's they're not allowed to get grants for.
If you want an all-day, the most viable answer is to get SWR to operate it. I don't know the ins and outs of what that would do to the Swanage as an infrastructure operator from a regulatory perspective, but I'm fairly sure it is possible to do given SWR had those services in the timetable for all those years. SWR would then be given a grant by the DfT as part of their franchise agreement.
 

Djgr

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This railway does seem to have an extraordinary amount of public money thrown at it.

Presumably all above board and not requiring an enquiry?
 

zwk500

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This railway does seem to have an extraordinary amount of public money thrown at it.

Presumably all above board and not requiring an enquiry?
How does it compare to other non-railway tourist attractions of a similar size? A heritage railway's selling point is it's collection of historic vehicles and paraphernalia, which costs a lot to restore and maintain. As it's located in a popular tourist area it has a high potential for visitors and therefore contributions of public money to enhance the offer and draw more tourists to the area are not unreasonable.
 

yorksrob

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It depends what you want - the heritage service for tourists is simple enough to keep going with grants to the charity foundation, there's various local tourist or heritage funds that can cover things to allow the SR to focus it's money on the bit's they're not allowed to get grants for.
If you want an all-day, the most viable answer is to get SWR to operate it. I don't know the ins and outs of what that would do to the Swanage as an infrastructure operator from a regulatory perspective, but I'm fairly sure it is possible to do given SWR had those services in the timetable for all those years. SWR would then be given a grant by the DfT as part of their franchise agreement.

Either way could be options. The Swanage Railway could be perfectly capable of running a public service, given that it's not been tried without subsidy.

Alternatively, if that doesn't work, the outside operator with track access charges to the Swanage might.

My point is, none of these options have been tried so far, so it's not worth flying the white flag just yet.
 

Djgr

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How does it compare to other non-railway tourist attractions of a similar size? A heritage railway's selling point is it's collection of historic vehicles and paraphernalia, which costs a lot to restore and maintain. As it's located in a popular tourist area it has a high potential for visitors and therefore contributions of public money to enhance the offer and draw more tourists to the area are not unreasonable.
Provided the public benefits exceed the public costs. What does the current ratio look like? (Not good I bet!)
 

zwk500

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Either way could be options. The Swanage Railway could be perfectly capable of running a public service, given that it's not been tried without subsidy.
If it's only one train then maybe, just maybe, they'll be able to resource a driver, guard, and platform staff to handle the offer/accept process with NR. If they do any operations that require signal boxes to be manned I would be astonished if they could resource that for a full service.
Alternatively, if that doesn't work, the outside operator with track access charges to the Swanage might.

My point is, none of these options have been tried so far, so it's not worth flying the white flag just yet.
SWT ran trains to Swanage in the mid-2000s didn't they. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been done properly is because it just doesn't add up.
 

yorksrob

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(Not good I bet!)

Seems like a negative outlook

If it's only one train then maybe, just maybe, they'll be able to resource a driver, guard, and platform staff to handle the offer/accept process with NR. If they do any operations that require signal boxes to be manned I would be astonished if they could resource that for a full service.

SWT ran trains to Swanage in the mid-2000s didn't they. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been done properly is because it just doesn't add up.

Would they ever need more than one train ? Given it's a branch line shuttle.

I think you're pre-judging all of this before the real gamechanger (public subsidy) has been tried.
 

Titfield

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There is quite a lot to answer here.

1. To get from Swanage to Wareham the operator, who ever it is, has to operate on network rail metals from Worgret Junction to Wareham. This means the operator has to meet mainline standards which includes (1) public liability insurance of £155M (I think) which is expensive especially when divided over a relatively small number of passengers (2) drivers have to pass the mainline medical and possess the European Rail Driving Licence (3) the rolling stock has to meet mainline standards which effectively means meeting modern crashworthiness standards, central door locking, having various bits of electronic kit including Train Warning Protection System and the kit that tells the controller where the train is, which direction it is travelling in, the speed etc. Toilets have to be tanked ie effluent goes in a tank not on the track. All these standards go to safety of passengers, rail workers and the general public. Some derogations are available but not for everything. The issues with the Jacobite do not exactly encourage ORR to grant derogations.
2. The operator has to pay track access charges (which helps pay for line and infrastructure upkeep) and station access charges (which pays for station upkeep).
3. Scheduled service operators have to meet various commitments including offering delay repay, access for mobility impaired passengers and having an agreed complaints handling policy. They also have to sign up to common ticketing standards and ticketing agreements including accepting railcards etc. These common standards are for the benefit of consumers. (How would it be if for example child fares applied at different ages on different operators services?)
4. The South West Mainline - Weymouth - London Waterloo - is very busy. Any delay can have a massive ripple effect all the way to London. Hence SWR and others need to be confident that any other operator will not create a disproportionate number of problems.
5, When operating the Wareham service the signaller at Corfe Castle (the main box for Swanage Railway) has to be fully trained for handling the additional complexity introduced by the Wareham service. Some volunteers do not want this additional responsibility and so have opted out of the additional training required and thus wont be rostered for those days.

All this compliance for safety and customer benefit comes at a cost. The smaller the operator the greater the cost on a per passenger basis.

Swanage Railway would like its own licence (or at least it did prior to this summer - its view may have changed) so it can utilise its own volunteer drivers subject of course to them meeting the required standards etc. Whilst they may be able to find and train sufficient volunteers for a 60 / 90 day one shift operation, a 363 day 2 shift operation is of a very different magnitude.

No one doubts that having a summer tourist service between Wareham and Swanage is of some benefit. The "problem"seems to be that the costs outweigh the revenue. So a subsidy is required but the questions arise: (1) does the subsidy represent good value for money (2) should govt subsidise this when another form of public transport is already subsidised - the bus.

Running a year round service daily with services from say 07:00 - 1900 will require a great deal of subsidy. One view -which has some support - is that the demand is too low to justify the level of subsidy required and again these monies could be better spent on other transport projects for example again enhancing / supporting the bus service.
 

zwk500

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Would they ever need more than one train ? Given it's a branch line shuttle.
Depends what frequency you want. From the website it looks to take c.45 minutes to go from Swanage to Wareham, so one engine can get a 2-hourly service at best. Hourly would be the bare minimum for a usable service in that part of the world (4 trains per day is hardly much use), so you'd need 2 units.
I think you're pre-judging all of this before the real gamechanger (public subsidy) has been tried.
The aim of pre-judging it is to assess whether or not public subsidy is worth it. This won't be a case of topping up the fares to stop a marginal line from slipping under, this is full-on fuelling the locos with banknotes.
 

Titfield

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If it's only one train then maybe, just maybe, they'll be able to resource a driver, guard, and platform staff to handle the offer/accept process with NR. If they do any operations that require signal boxes to be manned I would be astonished if they could resource that for a full service.

SWT ran trains to Swanage in the mid-2000s didn't they. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been done properly is because it just doesn't add up.

These were a short season of summer specials (Saturdays). Sadly a combination of industrial action, lack of driver availability (drivers who signed the route) and unit availability all conspired against the service.
 

yorksrob

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Depends what frequency you want. From the website it looks to take c.45 minutes to go from Swanage to Wareham, so one engine can get a 2-hourly service at best. Hourly would be the bare minimum for a usable service in that part of the world (4 trains per day is hardly much use), so you'd need 2 units.

The aim of pre-judging it is to assess whether or not public subsidy is worth it. This won't be a case of topping up the fares to stop a marginal line from slipping under, this is full-on fuelling the locos with banknotes.

Well, I think we would build upon the already popular services and take it from there.

What is there to say that this route is worse than the classic marginal line in terms of subsidy ? The infrastructure is already paid for, so is the rolling stock !
 

paul1609

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Having a TOC license is a completely different kettle of fish to a heritage operation, hence why nearly all Heritage lines that operate over NR tracks use a Charter TOC license (the exceptions are the NYMR which has it's own and very limited TOC license and the North Norfolk, who operate under the NYMR's license). It looks from RTT that here the Swanage Railway is operating under West Coast's license.

The subsidy required to support the Swanage Railway to have it's own TOC license would be immense. However, WCRC could bid for the paths on the SR's behalf (they have several other WTT slots, after all). However if you wanted these all-day swanage services to be part of e.g. Delay Repay, you'd need major changes to WCRC's licenses. None of this is insurmountable, but the question is whether or not the costs involved in bringing down the fares bring a material benefit to Swanage as a town or UK generally, and isn't purely subsidising bashers.
If you arranged a subsidy for the Swanage you'd be opening a Pandoras Box.
What about a subsidy for WCRC accepting Railcards on the Jacobite?
For the NYMR to Whitby?
For fares to Minehead, Sheffield Park, Dartmouth, Tunbridge Wells West, Alresford, Grantown on Spey, Dalegarth (Boot), etc, etc.?
 

Falcon1200

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No one doubts that having a summer tourist service between Wareham and Swanage is of some benefit. The "problem"seems to be that the costs outweigh the revenue. So a subsidy is required but the questions arise: (1) does the subsidy represent good value for money (2) should govt subsidise this when another form of public transport is already subsidised - the bus.

You have summed up the issues very well.

I took advantage of the Wareham service to visit the Swanage Railway in April, a trip I would not have made had it not been available. OTOH, I travelled to Wareham on a rail staff free pass (so National Rail did not benefit from my journey) and although I spent money in Swanage, it was entirely at the station which I did not leave! I did however pay full fare on the Swanage Railway, in order to support them and the Wareham service.

I suppose, at the end of the day, if the local Council wishes the service to continue, it is up to them whether to support it financially, and ultimately up to the voters to elect Councillors prepared to spend their money in that way.
 

yorksrob

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On my local route both the train and the bus are subsidised. They both serve distinct markets. I suspect that the bus and the train on Purbeck would also do so.

I think the issue is that if you're going to subsidise a service, you might as well do so to the extent that you make the service as useful as possible, i.e. all day, all week. This is something that needs to be done at national, rather than local level.
 

Dai Corner

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I suppose, at the end of the day, if the local Council wishes the service to continue, it is up to them whether to support it financially, and ultimately up to the voters to elect Councillors prepared to spend their money in that way.
I sought the views of my mother and stepfather, who live in Bridport and so pay Dorset Council Tax and vote in Dorset Council elections.

They were vaguely aware of the money spent on the Wareham service but had never used it or indeed the Swanage Railway at all. They were more critical of the Council for wasting money on building offices in Dorchester which they never occupied.

I can't see the Wareham service being an election issue, or the Conservatives ever losing control of the Council.
 

Djgr

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If you arranged a subsidy for the Swanage you'd be opening a Pandoras Box.
What about a subsidy for WCRC accepting Railcards on the Jacobite?
For the NYMR to Whitby?
For fares to Minehead, Sheffield Park, Dartmouth, Tunbridge Wells West, Alresford, Grantown on Spey, Dalegarth (Boot), etc, etc.?
I sought the views of my mother and stepfather, who live in Bridport and so pay Dorset Council Tax and vote in Dorset Council elections.

They were vaguely aware of the money spent on the Wareham service but had never used it or indeed the Swanage Railway at all. They were more critical of the Council for wasting money on building offices in Dorchester which they never occupied.

I can't see the Wareham service being an election issue, or the Conservatives ever losing control of the Council.
Although Tories are down to 12 out of 76 seats on Bournemouth, Poole Christchurch council!

Seems like a negative outlook

.
There's just a bit of a bad smell about the whole thing. I'm not sure if it is lack of competence or something worse.
 
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